Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Another opinion seeker for upright piano

Hi all!
Shortly ... after 4 and a half years together with Kawai CA-65, I decided, persuaded by a piano teacher, to buy upright piano for my son. He is 12 years old, 5th grade in music school but very advanced (playing, for instance, Rachmaninoff etudes tableau, some Chopin etudes, Schubert Impromptus etc ... ).
First we wanted to buy used Yamaha U1 (in our country, for 40 years old U1, the price is around 3000€). After we've got a discounted price for new Kawai K-300 (around 4500€) we switched to the new one, so went on a trial in the showroom. In the showroom, just in front Kawai, there was also brand new Essex 123. My son also played on it and he was delighted by the sound of Essex. His comment was that the keys are similar from his point of view, just Kawai is a bit faster and harder to play ... I'm still waiting for his teacher to go on a short comparison, but also would like to ask here ... is Essex worth 2500€ more than Kawai K-300? My son told me that he would be satisfied with both, but prefares Essex because of the reach sound. Maybe, for 7000€ should be smarter to seek for a good shaped used baby grand .... or this Essex could be a good investment?
Thanks for your opinions and advices!

from your account, the Essex might be the first piano you've auditioned at the higher price point. from what your son already possesses in terms of repertoire, getting a small grand is probably a better choice for him long term. a well designed grand will have a more responsive and sensitive action than the uprights you've seen ; your son will have a minor adjustment with how he experiences the sound envelope from the instrument. there are a number of potential candidates, as it is a popular market niche, it would really depend on your market and how much time and effort you have to commit to the search. even if you stick with getting a vertical, it wouldn't hurt to check what your options are at the higher price tier, new or used. you're providing a marvelous boon for your child, good luck hunting.

If your space allows, I would go for a grand mainly because of the action. I have read plenty of posts before that advocated the superiority of a taller upright piano to a baby grand, due to the longer strings and larger soundboards on the taller uprights. However except for some really high-end uprights (e.g. SFM action on Steingraeber) that I have never been fortunate enough to play, a well-regulated grand piano will almost always have a better action than an upright for your son to advance further technically.

I agree with the diea of trying to find a grand, I have had an upright spinet as my piano since I started lessons, and I am at the point where its action is starting to become a limit (it is also on the old side), and it is frustrating not being able to practice effectively all the time at my own home. (I end up having to re adjust when I get to play on my teacher's grand piano)

Your son is much better than I am at piano and being only 12 he can likely get even further by the end of highschool (I found I became very serious and aware of my own want to progress in the last three years (now college looms...))

Grand pianos pop up used fairly often on the used piano market as they are hard to take with one when one moves, I would certainly keep an eye out for those.

Thanks for your opinions. For now, somehow, baby grand is not an opinion, as it can't fit in his room. In the living room, there would be enough space, ant it would be a great decoration ... but everyday practicing in the living room could be an issue for all of us . And he's still 12yo, so upright should be a step-up after CA-65. And, after a few years, if he stays with this direction, (baby) grand could be considered, with some construction work in the apartment.
That way, maybe the cheaper solution, K-300, would be "optimal"?

I just realized that your current CA65, theoretically, has the same GF action as my recently acquired Kawai MP11.

I am by no means an experienced digital piano player, but I am quite used to grand piano's actions. Compared to the Steinway A sitting next to it, I would describe the MP11's action as acceptable. There are a few things about MP11's action (combined with sound generation-it's always difficult to separate feeling on action from the sound) that are not as good as a true grand piano, but it's good enough for me to do nighttime practice.

So while an acoustic upright piano will very likely have a better sound than your CA65, you may actually hit a "downgrade" in action by going after an upright.

A post of interest perhaps http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2614692.html#Post2614692

An upright with a fast action aided by permanent magnets - a lovely sounding upright

If you think you'll get a grand eventually but not now, you could also try looking for a used Essex or Kawai maybe no more than 10 or 15 years old.

In terms of how light or heavy the action is, don't let your son's immediate impression be too much of a factor. Although he is very advanced, everyone takes some time to adjust to a new touch. So before saying he doesn't like the action he should play the instrument for around 20 minutes. Also, if he loves the sound but not the touch it's possible the touch can be adjusted more to his liking.

the new kawai k300's have carbon fiber components in their action. have not played any myself, but the change to synthetics was in part intended to increase responsiveness and potential repetition rates. short of going to the expensive permanent magnet vertical action, this might represent the higher end of potential speed in a vertical action.

was prepared to be disappointed, but was favorably impressed by kawai's smallest grand, a mere 5 ft. 1 ", at a friend's home. in our market a used one probably doesn't go for much higher than a brand new k300, but if it can't fit, it can't. good luck hunting.

GPP,

You have not said if you play the piano? Anyhow firstly let me say that I am biased because I play a German upright right piano. I chose this because I preferred to buy a high quality upright than buying a small grand that would dominate our lounge.

There are some that have the opinion that an upright will hinder the development of a student's progress. I have a suspician that this attitude is one that is the result of pianists playing uprights that are old, or if new have not had it's action properly regulated.

The principle mechanical advantage that a grand action has is its ability to allow a note to be repeated with the key being lifted only slightly after the previous note. That said a properly regulated upright action allows trills to be played at a fast speed except for specific virtuoso classical pieces.

Composers or concert performers who owned or played upright pianos included:

Liszt (piano was by Rudolf Ibach & Sohn).

http://www.cobbecollection.co.uk/collection/36-liszts-italian-upright-piano/

Here is a link to discussion in this forum:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1693729/Liszt_played_an_upright?.html

Robert Schumann, Felix Mendelssohn, George Gershwin, Ralph Vaughan Williams, Scott Joplin, Igor Stravinsky

Just take note that if you buy a grand of 5'4", which is the shortest grand of generally acceptable quality, you need to add 3' to allow a technician tuner to work on it.

Ian

Does that mean ALL well-regulated upright pianos can reach that kind of technical requirements or do you have to have a high quality and expensive German upright, such as aforementioned Steingraeber 138 to reach that kind of technical requirements?

A better question would be do most students, even those who can go on to conservatory, need that authentic grand action?

I have some piano teachers that swear by grands and (7' preferred) grands only. Because somehow when you go compete there's a disadvantage if you don't have a 7' a home! Seriously?

In the case of those who will go on to study as piano majors (particularly in performance degrees), yes. At least, a good quality one that's in a decent state of regulation.

It is helpful to have access (you don't have to own one) to 7-9 foot grand pianos in advance of recitals/festivals/competitions, so you know how they're going to behave.

The great British teacher/composer Tobias Matthay said that there are nine distinct sounds one can get from an individual note, based on how a pianist strikes the key / hand position/ wrist position etc. Without a properly regulated grand action, I would bet that figure would change drastically

Having owned a Kawai K-2 and spent many hour playing a Kawai K-3 and presen tly owning an Essex EUP-111 I would say, "No."

The Essex is a good piano and I enjoy playing mine, but not worth that much more than a K-300.

All those prices are crazy expensive. What country are you in?

I would also second what terminaldegree said.

It does not take a particularly "virtuosic" passage to require this rapid repetition characteristic of a grand action. A trill asking for low volume (e.g. mp and below) would be hard to execute when the keys have to go all the way up.

Thanks for answers to all of you. I was out of this site for two days (huh, another young pianist competitiona and another first prize :)). Meanwhile, we took a different option which should be maybe not the optimal but more like an investment. After hours spent in the store (Kawai and Steinway dealer - together with Boston and Essex) we are close to make a decission which is opposite what I stated in upper posts .... the decission is to go for the grand piano, the model in the focus is Kawai GL-40, new one. We got very good price (I think) in our area (we're from Croatia), it's around 13000€ and it sounds reasonable to me (comparing to Essex 123 upright for 7000). Of course that we don't buy itthinking about possible future sale. It can be an "instrument for life", and, if not, it will have a decent value even after few years ...
So, this won't be a "step-up", it will be a solution for many years
And yes, I also play the piano, but as an amateur, for my own

I think Kawai GL-40 will serve your son (and you) very well for many years to come. For many years my wife practiced on her Kawai grand (I am not sure about the model) that was sufficient to eventually put her through one of the most prestigious conservatories.

The Piano Buyer website listed SMP of this model at $28590 so it looks like you get a fair/good deal.

Just out of curiosity (and according from info that I accumulated from reading the forum...I may be wrong ) for the given size of piano and the amount it costs, folks suggest quality uprights like Steingraeber 13x and similar makes.

They justified the selection by saying that quality uprights provide better sound, equal or better actions quality and they accupy less space.

But you better make your own research....is your money after all