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Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2613458
02/11/17 08:56 AM
02/11/17 08:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8
Belgium
Nauwelaerts Offline
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Nauwelaerts  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8
Belgium
I've never experienced any flexing with the lever I use, and yes it is a gooseneck lever. All I can say it that my lever (Jahn) is very good to feel the pin moving in very small movements. I used an extension lever in the past and I really don't like it.
I tune the highest notes on the piano with a higher tip.
Extension levers look very fancy, beautiful, ... but I have no feeling with it.
The Jahn lever I use isn't that expensive and works great with my tuning technique.
Personal preference of course! smile

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Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Nauwelaerts] #2613465
02/11/17 09:51 AM
02/11/17 09:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 348
Minnesota
R
Robert Scott Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 348
Minnesota
Flexing in a tuning hammer is never a good thing. You can never have too much stiffness there. Perhaps you can get used to a certain amount of flexing, but why bother?

I have seen Steve Fujan at the PTG conventions where he brings a dial-indicator test bed to measure tuning hammer flex. He sells an excellent tuning hammer made of carbon fiber for light weight and balance, and he can show you with his instrumentation exactly how much flex his hammer has compared to yours. Being a mechanical engineer by training, Steve knows where to put the most stiffness, which is close to the pin. Some other carbon fiber hammers have carbon fiber in the handle, but then ruin it by not having a thick enough neck. I recommend you check out the Fujan Tuning Hammer.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2613471
02/11/17 10:07 AM
02/11/17 10:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
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Mark Cerisano  Offline
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M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Flexing in the system is unavoidable. Stiff hammers can reduce that but I prefer not to have to deal with flex at all.

Think of it like this: trying to place the pin foot at exactly the right spot is like trying to move a box on a table to an exact spot.

You can hold the box with both hands and just place it there. If it's not exactly where you want it, you can move it around, having great control. (Stiff shaft analogy)

You can just use one hand and slide it along until it is where you want it, and stop pushing. You have to have good skill or you'll have to approach again. (Slow pull analogy)

Use one hand and tap it into place. (Nudging, tapping, impact, impulse analogy)

Only the first technique needs a solid contact it both directions. Slow Pull and Nudging do not.

I use a traditional hammer, I'm sure with flex, and never felt the need to try a stiff shank. I've passed the RPT exam and I am also a mechanical engineer. :-)


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2613497
02/11/17 11:33 AM
02/11/17 11:33 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Gadzar  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
About the goose neck hammer, it has a too steep angle between the lever and the head, that's what flexes the pin, try a lever with a 5° angle and you'll see and feel the difference.

About rigidity, I have a student tuning hammerand a Fujan. The difference in control when tuning is huge! With the Fujan you know exactly how the pin is twisting and when it turns in the pinblock.

I've used both of them and I know the difference, contrary to people who has never used a carbon fiber hammer and can only wonder what the difference is.

Trying a hammer for 15 minutes is not enough to appreciate it's full potential, there is a learning curve to explore the possibilities of a different tuning hammer.

I really do not understand why people talks about things they don't know and they have no experience with.




Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Gadzar] #2613528
02/11/17 01:36 PM
02/11/17 01:36 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,228
Scotland
Beemer Offline
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Beemer  Offline
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,228
Scotland
Originally Posted by Gadzar
About the goose neck hammer, it has a too steep angle between the lever and the head, that's what flexes the pin, try a lever with a 5° angle and you'll see and feel the difference.

About rigidity, I have a student tuning hammerand a Fujan. The difference in control when tuning is huge! With the Fujan you know exactly how the pin is twisting and when it turns in the pinblock.

I've used both of them and I know the difference, contrary to people who has never used a carbon fiber hammer and can only wonder what the difference is.

Trying a hammer for 15 minutes is not enough to appreciate it's full potential, there is a learning curve to explore the possibilities of a different tuning hammer.

I really do not understand why people talks about things they don't know and they have no experience with.



For me to buy a standard Fujan it will cost me $325+$39 delivery which is $364 +20% uk tax makes a total of $436.80 = £350 uk pounds.

So I doubt I will ever get the experience. However there are better materials coming along:

Colossal Carbon Tubes (CCT) are 15 times stronger than Carbon fibre.

Carbyne is another material stronger than carbon fibre and diamond.

Perhaps one day both pins and one-piece lever and tip will be made of these and for much less cost. 😆

Ian

Last edited by Beemer; 02/11/17 01:48 PM.

I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Beemer] #2613578
02/11/17 05:04 PM
02/11/17 05:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
Andrei Kuznetsov Offline OP
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Andrei Kuznetsov  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
crazy

Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2613695
02/12/17 05:27 AM
02/12/17 05:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 8
South Africa
Z
ZAGrand Offline
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ZAGrand  Offline
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Z

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 8
South Africa
Hi Andrei

I just thought I'd chime in here about the tuning lever.
I use this one: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6Pc...-Mute-Kit-Tools-New-E1Xc/1111140203.html
Yes, it only costs USD20 but that black tip is very well machined.
My tuner tried it when he replaced a string that I had broken and ordered one for himself to use on grand pianos. (I've posted about my adventures in the Entropy thread.)
Now he said he uses it on almost all the pianos he tunes.

I currently use Entropy on an old Android phone to tune my grand but the tuning is definitely not as good as my tuner who tunes aurally.


Absolute beginner tuner
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2613784
02/12/17 02:05 PM
02/12/17 02:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3
Russia
V
Vladmir Offline
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Vladmir  Offline
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V

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3
Russia
Tuning by ear requires certain knowledge and skills. So for the novice, nice to have some help in the form of a soft tuner . Try http://pianolab.ru - may be enjoy. The program is free.My piano I tune with this program about five years. If you have any questions write to the PM. And sorry for my English.

Last edited by Vladmir; 02/12/17 05:40 PM.
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2613898
02/13/17 05:11 AM
02/13/17 05:11 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,228
Scotland
Beemer Offline
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Beemer  Offline
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2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,228
Scotland
Thank you Vladmir for that link.

Has anyone else here used this program?

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2613918
02/13/17 08:53 AM
02/13/17 08:53 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3
Russia
V
Vladmir Offline
Junior Member
Vladmir  Offline
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V

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3
Russia
Ian, unlikely, I just yesterday posted this link here. Pianolab mostly downloaded in Russia.

Vladimir.

Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2613986
02/13/17 01:42 PM
02/13/17 01:42 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,228
Scotland
Beemer Offline
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Beemer  Offline
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2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,228
Scotland
I have downloaded virus checked then installed it. It is quite different from other software. The biggest problem is that its user instructions are sparce and some words are still with Russian text.

There are some highly technical adjustments including sampling frequency. There may not be sufficient information for me to make a tuning.

From your link you can download the pdf file.

Ian

Last edited by Beemer; 02/13/17 01:43 PM.

I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2619710
03/02/17 05:09 PM
03/02/17 05:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
Andrei Kuznetsov Offline OP
Full Member
Andrei Kuznetsov  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
So far so good! Did a couple of octaves today. Tuning my first ever string almost shet my pants. Same for the first 5-10. Now already more confident. Yes, it bends, yes, it jumps. But overall it definitely within my expectations. I decided to tune a few octaves (or less) a day. Will record something later.

I tried tapping - not worked for me, I don't feel it. I use more kind of impulsed pushes, with my hand always in contact with the lever. I deliberately don't try to be super precise, although I try to be as delicate as possible, it's fine for me if it is 'near', tiny bit 'under' mostly.

Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2619778
03/02/17 10:20 PM
03/02/17 10:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted by Andrei Kuznetsov
I use more kind of impulsed pushes, with my hand always in contact with the lever.


Very powerful with a gentle massage. These pulses can move the pin foot very tiny amounts.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2619892
03/03/17 08:18 AM
03/03/17 08:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,640
PA
L
Loren D Offline
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Loren D  Offline
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L

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,640
PA
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted by Andrei Kuznetsov
I use more kind of impulsed pushes, with my hand always in contact with the lever.


Very powerful with a gentle massage. These pulses can move the pin foot very tiny amounts.


That's pretty much how I set the pin. Gentle massaging and nudging to render the string while removing any torque and tension in the pin.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2623552
03/14/17 10:21 AM
03/14/17 10:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
Andrei Kuznetsov Offline OP
Full Member
Andrei Kuznetsov  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
Hello,

A bit more questions if you don't mind smile

1) Is frequent tuning noticeable wear the pins faster?

2) Not exactly a question, strangely enough, after re-checking the tuning I made a week ago, it looks like some notes are a tiny bit higher than what I'd expect them to be. Not 100% sure about it but anyways, not what I would expect. Another ones are a bit lower, which is more predictable, obviously.

Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2623557
03/14/17 10:36 AM
03/14/17 10:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
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Mark Cerisano  Offline
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M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
1) Not in my opinion, up to a point.

2) Interesting. Pitch drift is due to changes in the soundboard, slipping pins, and the tension is the non-speaking length (NSL). Leave the NSL tension very high, and it could go sharp during hard blows.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2623605
03/14/17 12:59 PM
03/14/17 12:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,596
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,596
New Hampshire
Andrei,

I'm new to this thread but I find it interesting. I agree with Mark that you don't have to worry about frequent tuning on your Bechstein wearing them out. ONLY IF you were dropping the pitch significantly and bringing it back up over and over and over. Then you could prematurely wear things out.

It seems to me that you now have the piano at proper pitch and you are only making fine adjustments. Yes? If so you're ok.

Now, are you familiar with what we techs often call a "test blow"? This is a medium-hard to hard strike on the key to REALLY make the string vibrate. It tends to redistribute the tension inequalities that you are inducing by "fussing around" with the tuning hammer. Although it is not the total picture, here is BASICALLY how it works:

1) Bring the string pitch to SLIGHTLY above where you want it to be

2) Put SLIGHT downwards pressure on the tuning hammer

3) While holding this SLIGHT pressure on the pin, give the note a decent strike...perhaps two

4) All the while you are watching your ETD meter to observe the pitch and what happens to it. It SHOULD go down a little with the "test blow".

5) Your goal is to learn how much you need to go above the target pitch so that you can settle it just about right on to the target pitch with the test blow and slight pressure. Then one or two more blows without pressure on the hammer to see if it stays put. If it doesn't, then you have to try again.


As I said, this is not the whole story as far as pin-setting, but it is simply a starting point for you to work at.

Now...since you are working on a Bechstein it is difficult especially in the center section where you have a very wide cloth string rest and the wire does not like to move freely. This can make it really hard to control, plus the fact that these pianos (with an open pinblock) require more "turning" (slightly) of the tuning pin rather than "flexing" of the tuning pin.

It is basically a "pain in the neck". However, I learned on a very old Bechstein too. So, it can be done.

There is something you can do to assist though.

Question (2): What kind of lubricants do you have available over there in Taganrog? Are you familiar with Protek lubricant?

Pwg

P.S. Nice to see your progress

Last edited by P W Grey; 03/14/17 01:01 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2623620
03/14/17 01:31 PM
03/14/17 01:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
Andrei Kuznetsov Offline OP
Full Member
Andrei Kuznetsov  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
Thank you very much. Honestly I don't feel comfortable doing ANYTHING extensive to my very senior piano, like hitting the keys hard.

"What kind of lubricants do you have available over there in Taganrog? Are you familiar with Protek lubricant?" - I'm not familiar with this area, I guess it is possible to get anything over the internet this days.

Sorry for not uploading the demo yet, still planning to do it later.

My points about my tuning so far:

1. I enjoy doing it.
2. I would NEVER offer my tuning services to anybody else around (nor payed nor free)
3. I'm not aimed for perfection. I see that it is possible to tune my piano very good but I don't want it because it require a lot of time and concentration and also I still a bit concerned about pin wear. Due to, most likely, a not so good tuning lever of mine, the pin almost always move in jumps in my case (when tuning clockwise). So to make it close to ideal will require some more back and forth movements.
4. I do my best to avoid the counter clockwise movements. So again, if the tuning is just slightly below perfect - I don't touch it. Actually it may be the reason why I got the impression that some strings got a bit higher over time (NSL tension).
5. I tuned my piano -12 cents from A440 because it was slightly above it's current average. I may decide to adjust by 1 cent from time to time later on.
6. Recently I'm checking about a couple of notes across the whole range a day, slightly fixing some of them.

Whole my life I played on an extremely out of tune pianos and used not to pay much attention to it, it was normal to me and did not bothered me. What I have now is just crazy night and day difference to what I'm familiar with.

I'm super grateful to this forum very friendly community for all the help.

Last edited by Andrei Kuznetsov; 03/14/17 01:51 PM.
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2623631
03/14/17 01:55 PM
03/14/17 01:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,596
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,596
New Hampshire
Andrei,

The reason I asked about lubricants is because if you apply lubricant to the strings in contact with the cloth, it can become much easier to tune (more cooperative). BUT, not just any lubricant!

Do you have Ballistol over there?

Protek works quite well for this, but Ballistol would also work.

What actually happens is that over many years with corrosion and all and the pressure of the strings, the cloth takes on a "mirror image" of all the slight imperfections of the wire. When you try to move it, it sticks and jumps and does not want to go smoothly to stay where you want to put it. A little lubrication can make a big difference.

Let us know what you can get your hands on and we'll teach you what to use and how to use it.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Electronic tuning technologies - home made tuning [Re: Andrei Kuznetsov] #2623640
03/14/17 02:15 PM
03/14/17 02:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
Andrei Kuznetsov Offline OP
Full Member
Andrei Kuznetsov  Offline OP
Full Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 114
Russia, Taganrog
Great, thank you so much, Peter, I'll check.

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