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Major 6 Diminished Scale
#2613026 02/09/17 07:08 PM
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When playing a scale, such as the Major 6 Diminished scale. Can you play a new chord that corresponds with the scale note. In other words change to a new chord on each note of the song unless the note is repeated. For example,from the score a C note you play a C6 chord and for an F note you would play an FM7 chord and so on.

I am working on the following scale and trying to learn the best ways to use it.

C6 Dm7b5 Em7 FM7 G7 Abdim7 Am7 Bdim7 C6

Any and all advise would be helpful. Thanks.

JohnF

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Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2613099 02/10/17 12:16 AM
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Hi John,
Yes you can build a chord off of each scale tone as you typed in your post. A slightly more old-fashioned way that big bands did it (and pianists like George Shearing who liked to play a melody or scale with locked hands block chord style) is to put a Major 6 chord on each of the possible scale tones that happen to be members of the root chord. So, CEGA, EGAC, GACE, and lastly ACEG before coming back to CEGA an octave higher than you started. For all the other scale tones that don't belong in a CEGA (C6) chord, namely the D,F,Ab, and B, you build up a fully diminished 7th chord starting with those letters as roots. Notice they themselves spell the diminished chord already. So, D-F-Ab-B, F-Ab-B-D, Ab-B-D-F, and lastly B-D-F-Ab, before coming back to D-F-Ab-B an octave higher.

Then to put it all together, you just alternate them back and forth C6, dim7, C6(1st inversion), dim7, etc.. going through all 4 inversions of both types of chord eventually, before returning to the original root position C6 chord:
C-E-G-A
D-F-Ab-B
E-G-A-C
F-Ab-B-D
G-A-C-E
Ab-B-D-F
A-C-E-G
B-D-F-Ab
C-E-G-A

To make it sound stronger and the melody clearer, put an octave of the root of each chord on the top of everything, so C-E-G-A-C, D-F-Ab-B-D, etc.. Then you get the locked hands style reminiscent of the big band swing era horn/sax section, and pianists George Shearing, early Oscar Peterson, etc.

The cool thing is that you can change out the happy sounding C6 root chord for a sadder/more serious sound like Cm6, so C-Eb-G-A, or even another diminished sound, Co7, so C-Eb-F#-A, and alternate between the same D diminished chords on the non-chord tones occurring in the scale.

Have fun!
-Erich

Last edited by erichlof; 02/10/17 12:22 AM. Reason: spelling
Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2613400 02/10/17 11:37 PM
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Thank you for the information Erich. I like old music and many old styles. I recently read up and learned the drop 2 thing. Sure does make music sound good. Now as I study jazz, I am completely new to it, I need to learn all sorts of things like the different scales and things like sweeps, runs, etc. I am currently studying Stride Piano, 50 + tricks by Ari Kast. His book was money well spent.

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2613402 02/10/17 11:49 PM
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Hey John, that's great, sounds like you are well on your way to learning some cool stuff! By the way, I remembered there was this Dick Hyman video actually demonstrating the chord scale technique I posted about earlier:


Edit: you have to click on the "watch on Youtube" button, because the player is not enabled by the owner of that video.

Enjoy and best of luck with your new techniques!
-Erich

Last edited by erichlof; 02/10/17 11:51 PM. Reason: clarification on playback of video
Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2614626 02/15/17 04:54 AM
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Help, I am lost. FmM7 and AmM7. Maybe, I assume one would play these as F Ab C E and A C E G. Yes/No?

Also AbAug is played as Ab C E. Can it be played as a 6th, 7th, or M7 chord using F, Gb, or G? My chord book only shows a basic chord with no extensions with the augmented chords. But on the other chords it shows them all as four note chords. Nice little book and has nice diagrams of the chords but the writing is all in Thai.

The scale I am working on is as follows. I got these two from some where on U-tube and Hank Jones stuff. I may never really use either but so far some songs, simple songs, sound good. Studying these two scales is really helping me to learn more chords.

C6 Dm7 Em7 FmM7 G7b9 Ab+ AmM7 Bm6 C6

Thank you John F

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2614804 02/15/17 04:37 PM
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Hi John,

You have the right spelling for FmM7 (F Ab C E), but the AmM7 is in fact A C E G# (the G is sharped because it is part of an A Major scale). The formula for any mMaj7 chord is first, construct the Maj7 chord that you know, then take the Major 3rd of that chord and lower it by 1 half-step. This process makes the chord quality go from Major to minor.

About the Ab Augmented, it usually contains the dominant 7th (so Gb would be the most common choice). However in this MajMin6th scale/chord pattern that you are working with, maybe G natural would fit a little better and sound more natural in this context. That would make the final chord an Ab aug(Maj7) or AbMaj7(+5). This chord is not very common like the dominant 7th version I mentioned earlier, but played in quick succession with the other scale chords, might sound a little smoother.

p.s. I can't think of a situation where the F that you mentioned as a possibility for the Abaug would sound good, because the F would clash right next to the E below it. Plus this would make it into a whole new chord, namely FmMaj7 in 1st inversion (Ab C E F)
which is originally F Ab C E

Hope this helps!
-Erich

Last edited by erichlof; 02/15/17 04:42 PM.
Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2614917 02/15/17 11:46 PM
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The C Major 6 Diminished scale is just a major scale with an added b6 or #5...passing tone...

It is most often used to play the four note passing block chord style. (George Shearing style, Mark Levine jazz piano book: page 179)

Alternating ascending or descending inversions between C6 and its neighboring diminished 7th chord:

C6
D dim7
C6/E
F dim7
C6/G
G#dim7
C6/A
Bdim7
C6


Jazz piano Instructor. Technical Editor for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". Studied with Mark Levine, Art Lande & Mark Isham (1981-1990). Also: Barry Harris and Monty Alexander (1993-present)
Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2615039 02/16/17 10:10 AM
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Is the George Shearing style, Mark Levine jazz piano book still in print and on the market?

Does that book teach all about these types of scales?

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2615130 02/16/17 02:32 PM
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Yes it is available:
The Jazz Piano Book

It definitely covers all the styles and scales that you are currently working on. Highly recommended!

btw, I met Mark Levine here in Houston, TX when he performed with his trio at a local night club. Really nice guy and great player, he really knows his stuff!

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2615284 02/16/17 09:27 PM
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I must be living right. LOL. I just checked on my Amazon order to see if one of the two books that I have on order is one you recommend. Both are to be delivered 27 Feb according to Amazon.

Jazz Piano Master Class with Mark Levine with CD

The Jazz Piano Book Mark Levine.

Many thanks to both of you.

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2616928 02/22/17 09:03 AM
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When playing a number using the chords from the C6dim scale instead of notes is it possible to advance the r.h.chord while still playing the l.h. melody of the previous note?

Also when playing as mentioned above is it alright to change from one type of scale to the other or to use part of one scale and part of another in the same number?

I found out by trial and error that you do not always have to play the chord on fast moving notes such as 8ths and 16ths, triplets, and the song still sounds correct. Maybe?

Any advice or information on this would be appreciated.

I am still waiting for my books. Amazon to Thailand is not a fast process unless you pay more for shipping than you do for the books.

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2616932 02/22/17 09:18 AM
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When playing a number using the chords from the C6dim scale instead of notes is it possible to advance the r.h.chord while still playing the l.h. melody of the previous note?

Also when playing as mentioned above is it alright to change from one type of scale to the other or to use part of one scale and part of another in the same number?

I found out by trial and error that you do not always have to play the chord on fast moving notes such as 8ths and 16ths, triplets, and the song still sounds correct. Maybe?

Any advice or information on this would be appreciated.

I am still waiting for my books. Amazon to Thailand is not a fast process unless you pay more for shipping than you do for the books.

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2617139 02/22/17 10:59 PM
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All yes.


Jazz piano Instructor. Technical Editor for Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book". Studied with Mark Levine, Art Lande & Mark Isham (1981-1990). Also: Barry Harris and Monty Alexander (1993-present)
Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2617157 02/23/17 01:33 AM
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When playing a number using the chords from the C6dim scale instead of notes is it possible to advance the r.h.chord while still playing the l.h. melody of the previous note?

Can you please explain to me how to do this. It seems very confusing?

I assume: If I am playing a total of five notes, 3 in r.h. and 2 in l.h. If I play C A in l.h. and E G C in r.h. and the next note is a D I would then play F Ab D with r.h. on the upbeat of the last note while still holding the C A in l.h. I also assume that this would not work on too many notes, just here and there when an advanced beat would be nice to make the music swing since basically your are changing the chord on each beat.

Thank you, johnf

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2617221 02/23/17 07:39 AM
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OP touches upon the topic, called the approach chords, or just the approaches. Approach ch. always bound with following chord, which is already known ; ,so dim7 always plays the role of dominant7/b9 (without root) in relation to the next chord. Therefore, approaches must be sought reversal from the known chord :
C - D - E - F - G - G# - A - B - C

Cmaj7 - D-7 - E -7 - Fmaj7 - G 7 - G#? - A-7 - B 7/b5 - C

G#? = G#dim 7 ( a dominant of Am)

However, there are a huge number of other possibilities.

Strictly parallel chord (chromatic approach)

C - D - E - F - G - G#m7 - Am7 - B - C

Dominant7 with alteration

C - D#o/maj7 - Em7 - F - G - G# - A - B - C

C - D - E7+ - Fmaj7 - G - G# - A - B - C

Voicing, as a result of voice-leading ,f.e.
Soprano goes up to a whole tone, other voices - a half step.


D-7 (sopr -f) to E-7 (sopr -g)

Instead acdf to bdeg - A# C# D# F - B D E G

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2617226 02/23/17 07:58 AM
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Nahum, I appreciate your help, however, you are way over my head. Can you explain this in layman's terms or in a simpler way.

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2617329 02/23/17 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by john f
Nahum, I appreciate your help, however, you are way over my head. Can you explain this in layman's terms or in a simpler way.
John, please - what exactly you haven't understood?

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
Nahum #2617404 02/23/17 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
OP touches upon the topic, called the approach chords, or just the approaches. Approach ch. always bound with following chord, which is already known ; ,so dim7 always plays the role of dominant7/b9 (without root) in relation to the next chord. Therefore, approaches must be sought reversal from the known chord :
C - D - E - F - G - G# - A - B - C

Cmaj7 - D-7 - E -7 - Fmaj7 - G 7 - G#? - A-7 - B 7/b5 - C

G#? = G#dim 7 ( a dominant of Am)

However, there are a huge number of other possibilities.

Strictly parallel chord (chromatic approach)

C - D - E - F - G - G#m7 - Am7 - B - C

Dominant7 with alteration

C - D#o/maj7 - Em7 - F - G - G# - A - B - C

C - D - E7+ - Fmaj7 - G - G# - A - B - C

Voicing, as a result of voice-leading ,f.e.
Soprano goes up to a whole tone, other voices - a half step.


D-7 (sopr -f) to E-7 (sopr -g)

Instead acdf to bdeg - A# C# D# F - B D E G


I was looking at:

e7 fully diminished leading to Bb/F with the bass going from e up a 1/2 step to Bb/F and I am not sure what that chord progression is. Is the Bb/F a sus4 major chord in root position?
or what?

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
Nahum #2617479 02/23/17 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Nahum
Originally Posted by john f
Nahum, I appreciate your help, however, you are way over my head. Can you explain this in layman's terms or in a simpler way.
John, please - what exactly you haven't understood?



I do not understand any of your explanation. So exactly what I haven't understood - all of it. Especially approaches. It sort of seems like I ask a question in one language and you answered the question in another language.

Mostly likely this problem is caused by the fact that I have no formal musical training. I do however, appreciate your trying to help. Thank you.

Re: Major 6 Diminished Scale
john fh #2617867 02/25/17 07:08 AM
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The approach chord - chord under melodic nonchord tone, leading to the next chord tone on a major or minor second up or down.The approach chord is usually not indicated by symbol unlike the subsequent chord; its use - decision of pianist.

Dominant 7 - chord, located on the fifth degree of major or minor scale.

Dominant 7 /b9 without root looks like diminished 7:(G7/b9) G B D F Ab =B D F Ab ;and is located at the seventh degree of scale.
Since dim7 in jazz usually plays a function of dominant and is based on the seventh degree of key, you can to introduce any indicated chord as a temporary tonic, before which you can always put the appropriate diminished 7 as temporary dominant .This trick can be done before any marked chord, if the melody sits well on diminished 7.

[Linked Image]


Originally Posted by emenelton

I was looking at: e7 fully diminished leading to Bb/F with the bass going from e up a 1/2 step to Bb/F and I am not sure what that chord progression is. Is the Bb/F a sus4 major chord in root position?
or what?


This is not dominant, and the entire pattern is not jazzy , because the major - not a seventh chord ; but inverted triad of tonic. Dim7 is on degree IV# of Bb major scale. This is typical for the classical music and chorale . https://yadi.sk/d/pWQlOUYn3EZzw2



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