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Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2613398 02/10/17 11:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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Gadzar Offline
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Steady pull is not my prefered tuning technique, but see the following videos of Isaac Oleg, a very fine French piano technician who uses this technique, explaining how to "charge" the tuning pins.





Here are more videos of Isaac Oleg tuning Equal Temperament in an upright piano, he tunes fifths and fourths checking with thirds and sixths, the sequence is: A4, A3, D4, E4, B3, F#4, C#4, G#4, D#4, A#3, F4, C4, G4.








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Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2613401 02/10/17 11:44 PM
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Gadzar Offline
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For this kind of tuning technique, steady pull, it is very important to have absolute rigidity in the tuning lever in order to exactly feel what is happening with the tuning pin. You must feel when it's twisting and when it has turned in the pinblock. If your lever flexes then you can not know if what you feel is the lever flexing or the tuning pin twisting.

So for this tuning technique a carbon fiber lever is the best choice because of its high rigidity.


Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2613440 02/11/17 05:32 AM
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Charles Cohen Offline
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OK, a dumb question:

. . . Why not make a tuning lever with a large-diameter, tubular aluminum shaft ?

Likely much cheaper than carbon fiber, and lighter than an equivalent steel tube.

I checked some catalogs, but didn't find any.

I think the idea of tuning with a torque wrench (which is _designed_ to have its shaft bend) is a hoot. I suspect that the lesson is:

. . . If your fingers and ears know what they're doing, _anything_ will work.



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Charles Cohen] #2613447 02/11/17 06:26 AM
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Ed A. Hall Offline
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
OK, a dumb question:

. . . Why not make a tuning lever with a large-diameter, tubular aluminum shaft ?

Likely much cheaper than carbon fiber, and lighter than an equivalent steel tube.

I checked some catalogs, but didn't find any.

I think the idea of tuning with a torque wrench (which is _designed_ to have its shaft bend) is a hoot. I suspect that lesson is:

. . . If your fingers and ears know what they're doing, _anything_ will work.



Charles,

The original Fujan tuning lever was made out of large aluminum tubing. They then switched over to carbon fiber. The carbon fiber version is much nicer IMO due to less weight. When you're tuning many pianos each day, weight does matter.

Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2613469 02/11/17 08:59 AM
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Mark Cerisano Offline
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For slow pull, you do not need a rigid shaft. Twist and bend is a constant as is untwisting and unbending after the force is removed.

All that is needed is to choose the correct hammer angle so that the unbending/untwisting doesn't leave the non speaking length too flabby.

It's really not as difficult as some people seem to think. When you make the right angle choice, you just pull up to pitch and leave it. It is very fast.

You do not need a rigid shaft because the tuning pin doesn't know how stiff the shaft is. All it knows is that it's being twisted, bent, and turned. And then this force is removed and it untwists and unbends.

I proved this at an international PTG convention by tuning a stable string using a torque wrench.





Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Charles Cohen] #2613472 02/11/17 09:24 AM
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Robert Scott Offline
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
OK, a dumb question:

. . . Why not make a tuning lever with a large-diameter, tubular aluminum shaft ?

Likely much cheaper than carbon fiber, and lighter than an equivalent steel tube.

I checked some catalogs, but didn't find any.

I think the idea of tuning with a torque wrench (which is _designed_ to have its shaft bend) is a hoot. I suspect that the lesson is:

. . . If your fingers and ears know what they're doing, _anything_ will work.


Here is an explanation of why use carbon fiber, from an industry source.

Weight for weight, carbon fiber offers 2 to 5 times more rigidity (depending on the fiber used) than aluminum and steel. In the case of specific components that will be stressed only along one plane, made from one-direction carbon fiber, its stiffness will be 5-10 times more than steel or aluminium (of the same weight).

In the case of a tuning hammer, the orientation of the force is known, so a comparably-stiff aluminum tuning hammer would weigh 5-10 times as much as the carbon fiber equivalent. Of course that is only for the parts that are made of carbon fiber. Some of it has to be made of steel, and those parts are pretty heavy too, so the comparison is not quite as bad it seems.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Mark Cerisano] #2613478 02/11/17 09:37 AM
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Robert Scott Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
For slow pull, you do not need a rigid shaft. Twist and bend is a constant as is untwisting and unbending after the force is removed.

That depends on the ratio of sliding friction to static friction. In many pin blocks, they are not too far apart, and a slow controlled movement is possible, even through a fairly flexible shaft. But some pin blocks and the string rendering is very jumpy. The static friction is much higher than the sliding friction. For those cases, once the pin begins to move, it will continue to move fast until the spring in the shaft unwinds to the point where it goes below the threshold for sliding friction. The more flex in the shaft, the greater this jump will be. In that case what I think an experienced user will do is deliberately tune away from the correct pitch a certain amount and then try to "jump" back into the correct pitch. Arbitrarily small corrections are not possible in those conditions.

Fortunately, even the more flexible tuning hammer shafts are reasonably stiff. The springiness in the flesh and muscle of the user will dominate the springiness of the tuning hammer itself. So it is hard to make a solid comparison by user experience alone. But one way to test the theory that "you do not need a rigid shaft" is to add even more flexibility to the system and then try to tune a jumpy piano. For example, you could wrap the tuning hammer handle in three inches of foam rubber and then try tuning with all that foam rubber between your hand and the handle. I don't think slow-pull will work very well with that much extra flexibility added. So there is some limit to how flexible a shaft can be. The only question is where is that limit?


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2613491 02/11/17 10:23 AM
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Why is it assumed that a pin that has high static friction relative to its kinetic friction cannot be moved a small amount? If the pin is given a slow increase in torque is the corollary that the transition, of static to kinetic friction, is always a large jump?

My understanding is that once the static friction has broken then the friction thereafter is constant. So lowering the string first then bringing it up just after the static friction has broken will allow the tuner to approach the desired "slightly above" tuned position. The final postion then being adjusted by controlling he NSL tension.

Ian

Last edited by Beemer; 02/11/17 10:33 AM.

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Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Beemer] #2613518 02/11/17 11:28 AM
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kpembrook Offline
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Originally Posted by Beemer
My understanding is that once the static friction has broken then the friction thereafter is constant.
Ian


This is true ... except for "jumpy" pins. I'm not sure of the exact scientific/engineering explanation, but "jumpy" pins have a radical difference between static friction and sliding friction preventing smooth, controlled movement.


Nonetheless... excess flex in a tuning lever is not desirable. A certain amount can be coped with quite well--without even conscious thought about it. But excess flex will tend to "mask" what's happening with the pin -- including the pin's own torsion.


I agree that a highly rigid tuning lever is not necessary -- and I don't happen to use one -- but I can understand why some people like them. Also, in testing tuning pin torque with a torque wrench one necessarily de-tunes the attached string. Using the torque wrench to re-tune the string is how I have experienced the unpleasantness of "too much flex". I do it -- but it isn't pleasant.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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