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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: The Monkeys] #2610686
02/01/17 05:42 PM
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I like Debussy! I don't think I adore Schubert. I have been taken to concerts but it was a fight to stay awake in them. To me, playing classical music is much more entertaining than listening to it.

We've gone so far off topic it seems. What is there to love of listening to classical music, truly? There were some in my group piano lessons who did seem to have a genuine love. For me, in the end, what I really love to listen to is pop music, I'm afraid still to this day :P I am impressed by classical music but I don't love it. I like it, but I don't switch on the classical music station on the radio. I think because there are no words. Classical music with words.. now that's fun..ny. Beethoven's Wig anyone? But to play classical music, baroque music, even, now that's fun. Nuances and such, not just head banging...
/end ramble

Last edited by hello my name is; 02/01/17 05:43 PM.

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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2610706
02/01/17 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hello my name is
I like Debussy! I don't think I adore Schubert. I have been taken to concerts but it was a fight to stay awake in them. To me, playing classical music is much more entertaining than listening to it.

We've gone so far off topic it seems. What is there to love of listening to classical music, truly? There were some in my group piano lessons who did seem to have a genuine love. For me, in the end, what I really love to listen to is pop music, I'm afraid still to this day :P I am impressed by classical music but I don't love it.

I don't know how any teacher can impart the love of classical music to her students unless she truly loves it herself. (Though of course, that's not a problem if the teacher only teaches pop music.......)

That's how my teachers - especially my first, when I knew nothing about classical music as a ten-year-old kid, and had never even heard it - got me hooked on it, and made me the pianist I am today. Not by showing me how impressed they were with it, but by how much it meant to them in their lives, and how much they loved it. And in turn, with my recitals - consisting solely of classical music, from Baroque to contemporary - I (try to) impart my own love of it to my audiences, with some success. I only perform the pieces I love.

I would never perform pop music (as piano solos) for my audiences because I don't love it - I don't even like most of it. I'd only play it with friends, purely for entertainment value, without caring about how badly I do it (especially in stylistic incongruities with my improvs), in a way that I could never do with music I love.

Quote
Classical music with words.. now that's fun..ny

You don't seem to know much classical vocal music.

Try this (and no, you don't have to be religious - I'm an atheist, and I've loved it ever since I had the pleasure of singing it in high school):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4SKrGYMp7A

Or this, which (unfortunately) I can't sing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuSJJ4lHIQM

......and this famous trio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wi7UsXW1As

The art that conceals art:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wfohl-zEDU

Contrast the simple beauty and profundity of that song (which I've often performed as a piano solo in my own transcription) with the vapid, head-banging stuff that's in so much pop........


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: The Monkeys] #2610757
02/01/17 11:11 PM
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Well.. I can't say I'm purposely trying to impart any love of classical music, at least of the listening variety. I like to play more than I like to listen. I think I don't love to listen to it oftentimes, because the dynamic contrasts are too much for me and I feel piano tone just doesn't carry over well across a recording. It is very unsatisfying to me. It is much nicer to hear myself playing in real life and be able to feel everything through my fingers than to hear someone else play. As for performances, it's much like watching a basketball game. I would rather be in the game, playing. There are some things I just don't enjoy hearing, like alberti bass. Mozart K545? Yeah.. I don't really appreciate listening to that. But it is fun to play.

I do know some classical vocal music.. I sang the Brahms Requiem in chorale once. It is really a lovely piece and I did love performing it. (But still not something I'd listen to casually) But what I meant by referring to singing is I've never played a classical piece on piano that I can sing to. With pop, it's pretty typical that what you're playing on the piano is a sort of background harmony to whatever you're singing. I love to sing, and most of my piano repertoire would be out of my range pretty immediately if I sang it. :P But I could.. in private.
I clicked on the links you posted...
I don't know what it is but the voices are too intense for me and distracting. Also.. I don't like listening to most pieces in minor keys. It makes me sad.

My teacher loved classical music, but I don't think that love got imparted to me. But I don't think that was ever a goal. I hope my students will enjoy music, but I don't plan to get them to love it. Some students just love it, without me even trying.

Last edited by hello my name is; 02/01/17 11:15 PM.

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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2610873
02/02/17 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by hello my name is
Well.. I can't say I'm purposely trying to impart any love of classical music, at least of the listening variety. I like to play more than I like to listen. I think I don't love to listen to it oftentimes, because the dynamic contrasts are too much for me and I feel piano tone just doesn't carry over well across a recording. It is very unsatisfying to me. It is much nicer to hear myself playing in real life and be able to feel everything through my fingers than to hear someone else play. As for performances, it's much like watching a basketball game. I would rather be in the game, playing. There are some things I just don't enjoy hearing, like alberti bass. Mozart K545? Yeah.. I don't really appreciate listening to that.

Outside of the Classical era, how often do you encounter Alberti bass? Almost never.....
Don't you listen to great pianists (on recordings or in concert) play Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev et al?

Of course, if you're good enough to play, say, their piano sonatas competently......
Are you? Otherwise, how else are you going to know any great piano music at all?

Quote
But what I meant by referring to singing is I've never played a classical piece on piano that I can sing to. With pop, it's pretty typical that what you're playing on the piano is a sort of background harmony to whatever you're singing. I love to sing, and most of my piano repertoire would be out of my range pretty immediately if I sang it.

I'm a pretty mediocre singer, yet I often accompany myself in songs by Mozart, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, even Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov. (Didn't you even try some of the simple Schubert songs, like the one I linked? There are lots of others which don't make too much technical demands pianistically or vocally.)

As well as pop, but only with friends. Otherwise their (usually) banal melodic & harmonic structure bores me stiff. Only my own improvisations on the chords or lead sheets make them bearable for any length of time.....

Incidentally, what I've noticed from my student years, and also since I met many 'lapsed adults' from my recitals is that piano students who don't like classical rarely ever continue with lessons for long. (If, for instance, pop is your thing, guitar is far more useful). One thing I and my fellow music students in high school had in common was that we all loved classical (as well as other genres, for most of us), and also took up opportunities to make music with others, including singing in the choir, or playing in the orchestra or brass band etc. My five cousins, who didn't particularly care for classical, all gave up lessons as soon as they were allowed to by their parents. Two of them had reached advanced standard by then, so it wasn't that they weren't musical. But living in a country where the only classical music they got to hear (at that time, decades ago) was what they were learning - and unlike my teacher, theirs never played for them - it probably wasn't surprising that their world of classical music was very restricted, and they didn't developed any affinity for it.

After they emigrated to Australia, they were able to access much more classical, and as a result, they began to love it, and all their children are now having piano lessons, though they themselves never took up piano playing seriously again.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: David-G] #2610897
02/02/17 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by David-G

I adore Schubert - but I have never understood or enjoyed Debussy's piano music. To be frank, it bores me. No amount of encouragement would ever have made me play it as a child - or would make me play it now, for that matter.


I was driving and NPR had a Philip Glass program on.

Have you ever listened to any of that boring, repetitive, mindnumbing dreck? I knew the name, but had no idea how bad it was, never having heard any.

So I went on youtube, figuring I'd post a link here to show everybody here how awful it was.

and oh carp! I have to eat my words. I really enjoyed it. There's some really nice stuff there that I would never have been exposed to on my own, having rejected it on the first hearing.

That's one reason I prefer the radio to bringing recorded music. I like a chance to find something new along with the old and familiar.


gotta go practice
Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: TimR] #2610937
02/02/17 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR
[
I was driving and NPR had a Philip Glass program on.

Have you ever listened to any of that boring, repetitive, mindnumbing dreck? I knew the name, but had no idea how bad it was, never having heard any.

So I went on youtube, figuring I'd post a link here to show everybody here how awful it was.

and oh carp! I have to eat my words. I really enjoyed it. There's some really nice stuff there that I would never have been exposed to on my own, having rejected it on the first hearing.

That's one reason I prefer the radio to bringing recorded music. I like a chance to find something new along with the old and familiar.

The radio was, and still is, my main source of erudition for music. That's how I was exposed to everything from Hildegard of Bingen to Kaija Saariaho, as well as everything in between. Sometimes, I'm taken aback when I start chatting to musical people (including professional orchestral musicians) who have never heard any Couperin (F. & L. wink ) or heard of Peteris Vasks. Apparently, some musicians have such narrow focus that you get pianists who have never heard Paganini (and don't know where Rach/Pag, Brahms/Pag, Lutoslawski/Pag etc came from) or string players who know no Chopin or Liszt......

BTW, for all Glass lovers and Glass haters grin:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08c2ztv

Wonderfully vibrant pianism - even if you don't like the music. (Don't miss the encore).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: TimR] #2610982
02/02/17 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR

and oh carp! I have to eat my words. I really enjoyed it. There's some really nice stuff there that I would never have been exposed to on my own, having rejected it on the first hearing.

That's one reason I prefer the radio to bringing recorded music. I like a chance to find something new along with the old and familiar.

But the real game changer was a combination of the radio and YouTube.

The combination...


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: bennevis] #2610996
02/02/17 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis

Outside of the Classical era, how often do you encounter Alberti bass? Almost never.....
Don't you listen to great pianists (on recordings or in concert) play Chopin, Schumann, Brahms, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev et al?

Of course, if you're good enough to play, say, their piano sonatas competently......
Are you? Otherwise, how else are you going to know any great piano music at all?


No, not that skilled yet! wink But I'm hoping to return to lessons soon to get ready for an audition of sorts and after that.. maybe it could be a next goal for me. I have gotten exposed to my piano music from my teacher generally who knows me quite well as she taught me for years, and from recitals and the occasional performance that my teacher has taken me to. I briefly looked up the Piano Sonata op 1 by Brahms to see what it sounds like, since I know I like Brahms (absolutely favorite piece is OP 118 No. 2 in A major), but the sound was large and not very pleasant to listen to for me. I'm kind of a sensitive quiet person.. I like listening to Debussy's Claire De Lune, that type of thing (though I never got assigned it! .. ).... I'll make an exception for OP 118 No. 1 .. but all the sF's.. I just want to turn it off, can't listen to it. Fun, but the energy coming in as a listener.. is too much. Don't know how else to describe it. But, I imagine those Sonatas would be fun to play and perform.

Funny that you mentioned it.. I do play guitar and I played viola in orchestra.. those were definitely fun but I feel like I can express more on piano.. the feeling of my fingers and the response of the piano is quite satisfying. Perhaps that's why I've never been very good at playing by ear.. O_o hrm.


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611014
02/02/17 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hello my name is
I have been taken to concerts but it was a fight to stay awake in them. To me, playing classical music is much more entertaining than listening to it.


Same for any kind of music -- playing is much more interesting than listening. It also makes it more obvious if you fall asleep..... ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuBdaiu_0xA



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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: JohnSprung] #2611067
02/02/17 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnSprung
Originally Posted by hello my name is
I have been taken to concerts but it was a fight to stay awake in them. To me, playing classical music is much more entertaining than listening to it.


Same for any kind of music -- playing is much more interesting than listening. It also makes it more obvious if you fall asleep..... ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuBdaiu_0xA



My dad used to fall asleep during my recitals.. pretty sure he may have started snoring at one point too.


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: The Monkeys] #2611068
02/02/17 09:50 PM
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On this topic of "will he ever grow to love classical music"..

I had two of my kiddos today.. and Mom basically said she was going to have them take a break from piano lessons. Neither of them wanted to come to the lesson, even the girl was in tears. She quickly cheered up a bit after we chatted about her dog and we plodded through Old McDonald, not at a regular tempo and with pauses for each phrase, but it was good enough for me and I made sure to give her a lot of positive comments. I thought it was a little victory, but then the little boy who is 4 who I had next, basically stood by the keyboard with a sullen face, only shaking his head to my questions and telling me that he hated piano "what's wrong?" "I hate piano." , refusing to play. frown His uncle was there, telling him he wanted to hear the song.. but the boy refused. I asked him if he wanted me to play, to which he nodded. It was kind of a surprise, since he is normally really attentive, good at listening, and plays fairly well (My First Piano Adventures). .. so we just played some rhythm games today which he was cool with but it was still sad .. where did it go wrong? frown Did I miss some cues? Does he really hate piano, or is it something else? I hypothesized that maybe he didn't want to play because he hadn't practiced and maybe he was afraid it would be too hard.. he's a little more hard on himself.. being 4 you know and a little more reserved.. but even the little girl didn't want to come. Mom said she wanted to take a break cause she knows so many people who took piano as kids and "hated it" and she doesn't want to force them to take piano. Now the question is, why is it that so many people have hated piano lessons as kids? T_T

Compassionate comments please...


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611088
02/02/17 11:52 PM
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Quote
Now the question is, why is it that so many people have hated piano lessons as kids?


I am not sure if I really hated them, but surely gladly took the opportunity to quit and did not miss them after quitting. After experiencing them again as an adult I can think of a few reasons:
- I was a physically weak and tense child and being forced to sit "right" caused me to suffer pain on and after lessons (later was diagnosed with skoliosis). My teacher never took my complains seriously so I just suffered quietly.
- I did not like and had no interest on the method book stuff I was supposed to practice so didn't. Which meant I tried to cramp it on the day before and was always stressed about going to the lessons and never pleased about how I played. (Still not pleased but at least I practice daily.)
- My teacher did not understand my specific problems (especially with reading music) so did not address them in any way and I was left to my own my to try to cope.
- I had a really unpleasant experience with performing on a recital so did not want to do it again.

Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: outo] #2611089
02/02/17 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by outo
Quote
Now the question is, why is it that so many people have hated piano lessons as kids?


- I did not like and had no interest on the method book stuff I was supposed to practice so didn't. Which meant I tried to cramp it on the day before and was always stressed about going to the lessons and never pleased about how I played. (Still not pleased but at least I practice daily.)



As an adult, is sitting easier for you now in spite of the scoliosis?
I'm assuming you had to go through method books as an adult? What made it different?

Also bennevis-- I found something else I like! wink
Schumann's "Carnaval" Op.9

Last edited by hello my name is; 02/03/17 12:07 AM.

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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611094
02/03/17 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by hello my name is
Originally Posted by outo
Quote
Now the question is, why is it that so many people have hated piano lessons as kids?


- I did not like and had no interest on the method book stuff I was supposed to practice so didn't. Which meant I tried to cramp it on the day before and was always stressed about going to the lessons and never pleased about how I played. (Still not pleased but at least I practice daily.)



As an adult, is sitting easier for you now in spite of the scoliosis?
I'm assuming you had to go through method books as an adult? What made it different?

Sitting is still difficult and I had some pains when I started lessons as an adult as well. Physical therapy and regular exercise are vital to my piano lessons and I have slowly gained more strength so it is now easier to cope. Also being bigger helps I guess. My teacher is still not perfectly happy with the way I sit and play, but we have found some sort of an agreement...

No method books as an adult. That made all the difference smile
Also now when I get bored on something I can just leave it. And I have found that tolerating boredom is not really necessary for progressing on things I really want to progress on.

Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611096
02/03/17 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by hello my name is
Compassionate comments please...

Sounds like neither of these kids is ready to start piano lessons. They can wait until they are mentally and psychologically ready.

It's rarely the teacher's fault that the kid "hates" piano. Most of the time, these are kids who should not be taking piano, or aren't ready to take piano. Or they have pushy (read: The Ogre) parents.


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: outo] #2611097
02/03/17 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by outo

No method books as an adult. That made all the difference smile

Wah, what did you start with then?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMGKEV_nIu0
This girl though.. now this I like to listen to. So much heart T___T .



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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611107
02/03/17 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by hello my name is
Originally Posted by outo

No method books as an adult. That made all the difference smile

Wah, what did you start with then?



Mixed stuff. Some little pieces my teacher gave me, simple pieces I found myself, Scarlatti sonatas (they have become the basics of my study) and some pieces a bit too difficult for me. I studied independently for about 3 months before starting lessons, so I had already relearned how to read notes. But technically my playing was all wrong according to my teacher smile

Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611165
02/03/17 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by hello my name is

Also bennevis-- I found something else I like! wink
Schumann's "Carnaval" Op.9

Odd, considering it starts off rather noisily..... wink

My last teacher gave me that to learn, right after Arabeske (which is a lot less noisy and much easier....), which got me addicted to Schumann. Kreisleriana soon followed, and I went on to learn the Fantasie in C by myself around the same time. If you like heartfelt emotional music, the Fantasie is for you....

As for your troubles with the little ones, have you tried playing something really flashy and tuneful just to entertain them (and show them what can be achieved - eventually - if they practiced)? That was exactly what my first teacher did, at the end of every lesson. It was educational as well as entertaining, because I saw close-up how my teacher's movements were economical as well as fluid, and what I could aspire to. I loved the exciting stuff like Grieg's 'March of the Trolls' as well as simple tuneful pieces like MacDowell's 'To a Wild Rose' (which at least seemed attainable for a kid just starting).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611249
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Originally Posted by hello my name is

My dad used to fall asleep during my recitals.. pretty sure he may have started snoring at one point too.

My father in law falls asleep and snores during recitals, but he has sleep apnea. wink


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: outo] #2611412
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by hello my name is
Originally Posted by outo

No method books as an adult. That made all the difference smile

Wah, what did you start with then?



Mixed stuff. Some little pieces my teacher gave me, simple pieces I found myself, Scarlatti sonatas (they have become the basics of my study) and some pieces a bit too difficult for me. I studied independently for about 3 months before starting lessons, so I had already relearned how to read notes. But technically my playing was all wrong according to my teacher smile


Lol, all wrong how? Do you remember what your teacher gave you? I guess it would help if you have studied independently for 3 months, then you wouldn't necessarily need the method books.


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: bennevis] #2611414
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by hello my name is

Also bennevis-- I found something else I like! wink
Schumann's "Carnaval" Op.9

Odd, considering it starts off rather noisily..... wink



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB6UCcpeLQA
Yes, it does ... I like the part starting at about 6 minutes in, haha. wink


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611422
02/03/17 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by hello my name is
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by hello my name is

Also bennevis-- I found something else I like! wink
Schumann's "Carnaval" Op.9

Odd, considering it starts off rather noisily..... wink



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB6UCcpeLQA
Yes, it does ... I like the part starting at about 6 minutes in, haha. wink

I do like 'Chopin' by Schumann (14:45 in your link).

But most of all, the March of David against the Philistines, the noisiest section of all......(never could stand Philistines mad).


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611459
02/04/17 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by hello my name is
Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by hello my name is
Originally Posted by outo

No method books as an adult. That made all the difference smile

Wah, what did you start with then?



Mixed stuff. Some little pieces my teacher gave me, simple pieces I found myself, Scarlatti sonatas (they have become the basics of my study) and some pieces a bit too difficult for me. I studied independently for about 3 months before starting lessons, so I had already relearned how to read notes. But technically my playing was all wrong according to my teacher smile


Lol, all wrong how? Do you remember what your teacher gave you? I guess it would help if you have studied independently for 3 months, then you wouldn't necessarily need the method books.


I sat wrong, I twisted my wrists, I did not use my hands and fingers efficiently, I moved around too much... You should know that she asked me to bring music that I like and I took her some advanced stuff such as Chopin etudes. So she was like: You want to play virtuoso stuff one day? Then you must learn virtuoso technique. Poor woman did not know what she got into....she's still trying wink

I have a list of the pieces I have studied on my pc, I'll look later. But the pieces she selected were specifically chosen for what she thought I needed to work on at the time.

I am not sure why anyone would "need" method books. Most method books are just a selection of pieces. Of course they are practical and I guess many students enjoy the process of going through the books and "advance" in some logical order. For me it's almost the opposite, I find too much order and structure in learning boring and demotivating.

Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: outo] #2611497
02/04/17 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by outo
I am not sure why anyone would "need" method books. Most method books are just a selection of pieces. Of course they are practical and I guess many students enjoy the process of going through the books and "advance" in some logical order. For me it's almost the opposite, I find too much order and structure in learning boring and demotivating.

Most kids adore their method books! Cute pictures. Catchy tunes. And regardless of how I try not to compare the kids, kids compare themselves to each other to see how far they've progressed.

Most method books are definitely not "just a selection of pieces."


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: AZNpiano] #2611509
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by outo
I am not sure why anyone would "need" method books. Most method books are just a selection of pieces. Of course they are practical and I guess many students enjoy the process of going through the books and "advance" in some logical order. For me it's almost the opposite, I find too much order and structure in learning boring and demotivating.

Most kids adore their method books! Cute pictures. Catchy tunes. And regardless of how I try not to compare the kids, kids compare themselves to each other to see how far they've progressed.

Most method books are definitely not "just a selection of pieces."


Yes, I was simplifying a bit. But even as a kid I didn't care for cute pictures and "catchy" (=gay?) tunes... When I play my favorite piano music to my friends they ask me if I know anything else but "funeral music" LOL...I have also always liked dissonant modern harmonies and interesting rhythms.

But if a student likes the books then of course that's what you should use! It's just good to know that not everybody does.

Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: outo] #2611725
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Originally Posted by outo

I sat wrong, I twisted my wrists, I did not use my hands and fingers efficiently, I moved around too much... You should know that she asked me to bring music that I like and I took her some advanced stuff such as Chopin etudes. So she was like: You want to play virtuoso stuff one day? Then you must learn virtuoso technique. Poor woman did not know what she got into....she's still trying wink


Really wish I could see that!

Also.. funeral music?! I wonder if the kid who told me he "hates piano" would like funeral music....

Last edited by hello my name is; 02/05/17 12:16 AM.

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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: hello my name is] #2611731
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Originally Posted by hello my name is
Originally Posted by outo

I sat wrong, I twisted my wrists, I did not use my hands and fingers efficiently, I moved around too much... You should know that she asked me to bring music that I like and I took her some advanced stuff such as Chopin etudes. So she was like: You want to play virtuoso stuff one day? Then you must learn virtuoso technique. Poor woman did not know what she got into....she's still trying wink


Really wish I could see that!

Also.. funeral music?! I wonder if the kid who told me he "hates piano" would like funeral music....


I just naturally gravitate towards slow, heavy and melancholic music in minor keys. I don't think of it as sad but it seems most people do.

Did you ask your student if he likes to listen to music and what kind? You might get a clue of what he would like. If you can find even one piece he really wants to play, you might get him interested on learning. Even I it's too hard it might work as a motivator.

It is of course possible that the piano is not the right instrument for him...but I too remember thinking at some point that I did not like piano or piano music at all. What got me back on track was a Scarlatti cd I bought at some record sale.

Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: outo] #2612195
02/06/17 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by hello my name is
Originally Posted by outo

I sat wrong, I twisted my wrists, I did not use my hands and fingers efficiently, I moved around too much... You should know that she asked me to bring music that I like and I took her some advanced stuff such as Chopin etudes. So she was like: You want to play virtuoso stuff one day? Then you must learn virtuoso technique. Poor woman did not know what she got into....she's still trying wink


Really wish I could see that!

Also.. funeral music?! I wonder if the kid who told me he "hates piano" would like funeral music....


I just naturally gravitate towards slow, heavy and melancholic music in minor keys. I don't think of it as sad but it seems most people do.

Did you ask your student if he likes to listen to music and what kind? You might get a clue of what he would like. If you can find even one piece he really wants to play, you might get him interested on learning. Even I it's too hard it might work as a motivator.

It is of course possible that the piano is not the right instrument for him...but I too remember thinking at some point that I did not like piano or piano music at all. What got me back on track was a Scarlatti cd I bought at some record sale.

I agree with you, but as a teacher I will tell you that often the things students want to play, things that I would also like to teach them, require them to play at super-slo motion. Then AT BEST then end up memorizing something, one painful measure at a time, and when we start the next piece we are pushing the same stone up the same mountain.

The problem with playing things by Bach, Scarlatti, Chopin, you name it, is that these great composers were not teaching beginners. In the case of Scarlatti it is possible the he started with more basic things than his sonatas, but I have not seen them, and their is not one Scarlatti sonata that any beginner I've ever taught would not fail at.

Later? If a student got to that level and only wanted to play Scarlatti, I would be a very happy teacher.


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Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: Gary D.] #2612290
02/06/17 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by hello my name is
Originally Posted by outo

I sat wrong, I twisted my wrists, I did not use my hands and fingers efficiently, I moved around too much... You should know that she asked me to bring music that I like and I took her some advanced stuff such as Chopin etudes. So she was like: You want to play virtuoso stuff one day? Then you must learn virtuoso technique. Poor woman did not know what she got into....she's still trying wink


Really wish I could see that!

Also.. funeral music?! I wonder if the kid who told me he "hates piano" would like funeral music....


I just naturally gravitate towards slow, heavy and melancholic music in minor keys. I don't think of it as sad but it seems most people do.

Did you ask your student if he likes to listen to music and what kind? You might get a clue of what he would like. If you can find even one piece he really wants to play, you might get him interested on learning. Even I it's too hard it might work as a motivator.

It is of course possible that the piano is not the right instrument for him...but I too remember thinking at some point that I did not like piano or piano music at all. What got me back on track was a Scarlatti cd I bought at some record sale.

I agree with you, but as a teacher I will tell you that often the things students want to play, things that I would also like to teach them, require them to play at super-slo motion. Then AT BEST then end up memorizing something, one painful measure at a time, and when we start the next piece we are pushing the same stone up the same mountain.

The problem with playing things by Bach, Scarlatti, Chopin, you name it, is that these great composers were not teaching beginners. In the case of Scarlatti it is possible the he started with more basic things than his sonatas, but I have not seen them, and their is not one Scarlatti sonata that any beginner I've ever taught would not fail at.

Later? If a student got to that level and only wanted to play Scarlatti, I would be a very happy teacher.


I am not sure if we are talking about absolute beginners here. I'd say any kid or adult no matter how fast a learner needs months to get the absolute basics. But does everyone need a year or more?

True, Scarlatti is no beginner music. But I don't think it's necessary to wait for five years either. There are sonatas that require no advanced technique to be played, although you may not sound like the masters. One could play only one movement and some of them are pretty short.

For a student that is not motivated it might even be a good idea to make easier arrangements of some classics. My point was, it should be possible to find a solution to lack of interest with a student who does not suffer from total disinterest in music. It just requires imagination.

I sometimes feel that people are too obsessed with "levels". You either can learn a piece to reasonable quality in reasonable time or not. If people have different strengths and interests, why should everyone advance in a similar way? That idea has always been a little off putting to me. Why not look for things to enjoy one's strengths while gradually working on your weaknesses at the same time? If one CAN manage a piece above one's "level" even though one cannot manage other pieces from that level, why should one wait if that piece will motivate one to continue lessons and practice? Is suffering boredom and lack of motivation really necessary?

I guess it's up to me to prove it's not, since I definitely have been broken many rules myself wink

Last edited by outo; 02/06/17 11:42 PM.
Re: Will he ever grow to like classical music? [Re: outo] #2612318
02/07/17 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by outo

I am not sure if we are talking about absolute beginners here. I'd say any kid or adult no matter how fast a learner needs months to get the absolute basics. But does everyone need a year or more?

Everyone is different. Recently I heard someone famous say this about Roger Federer: "That's just ridiculous. Don't try that at home. You can't teach talent."

So if you are teaching an amazingly talented student, lots of things can happen in the first year.

There is one and only one danger in playing things that are too difficult to read. If you take forever to slowly master something, measure by measure, in a way that you can only play a page or a piece by totally memorizing it in slow motion, chances are you will have to push a similar big stone up the same mountain again and again. The logical end to this would be the path of someone like Joseph Hoffman, known for playing a somewhat limited repertoire amazingly well but limited by lack of reading.

The problem is that most of us won't reach anything like that level and still will have a horribly limited repertoire.

My way of teaching is to insist that things get learned rather quickly, at least a few pages a week that are new, but I don't worry about perfection on anything that is new. I prefer to grab things that have already been learned, reviewing, and THEN try to step the polishing up. You have to be careful that very wrong things are not learned while working fast, such as weird fingerings that form really bad habits, and you have to watch out of tension, because that can hurt the body.
Quote

True, Scarlatti is no beginner music. But I don't think it's necessary to wait for five years either. There are sonatas that require no advanced technique to be played, although you may not sound like the masters. One could play only one movement and some of them are pretty short.

It didn't take me five years to get to Rachmaninov. wink

Someone who makes fast progress could definitely get to one of the easier Scarlatti Sonatas after a year. All you need is a love of Scarlatti and the willingness to put in the time.
Quote

For a student that is not motivated it might even be a good idea to make easier arrangements of some classics.

Ok for something that is not for the piano but deadly if it is a piano composition because later simplifications get well learned and fight with the correct version.

Excellent for anything "pop". I have a little kid who is going to play for his mother's wedding (second marriage), and she wanted him to play "Someday My Prince Will Come", Disney, Snow White. Mom bought an easy play book, so I played through maybe 10 selections, and the arrangements were relatively decent. The kid learned it in two weeks, and I told him that if he gets it really smooth, I may add more notes and flesh it out a bit, as I did for him in a lesson to show how that is done.

I consider this a 100% successful detour because I could discuss how to add pedal, how to look for chords, other things.

I have taught ANYTHING to ANYONE over the years, no limitation on what I like myself, unless a student was not good enough to do it, or the music was so obviously poor that God Almight couldn't make it sound right. I run into problems with game music, things that sound find played by machines but that don't work well for human hands played real-time.
Quote

I sometimes feel that people are too obsessed with "levels". You either can learn a piece to reasonable quality in reasonable time or not.

I have collected music for decades, and I put it into "folders". I have no limits on what goes in any folder except that if folder D or H or ZZ1 contains 15 things, they have to be playable by someone who is on that level. This has nothing to do with style, period and so on. I might have something from Harry Potter in the same folder as something by Bach. I'm teaching skills, then each thing we play just uses those skills. There is a lot of leeway on any level. If someone want to play something harder, I print out a page and try it. If it works, we continue. If we run into a wall, I simply say, "Let's come back to this a bit later when you have more skills."
Quote

If one CAN manage a piece above one's "level" even though one cannot manage other pieces from that level, why should one wait if that piece will motivate one to continue lessons and practice? Is suffering boredom and lack of motivation really necessary?

What you CAN play IS your level. If you can't manage other pieces in a so-called level, the music is not sorted correctly for your skills.

Everything I teach is arranged according to what works for most people. If I teach something that seems to belong in a level and several people struggle with it, I move it to a higher level. Then if it still causes problems, I throw it out if it is something that does not have a clear purpose and is not liked by most students. About 50% of my teaching has to do with moving things to where they work best.

I find any graded method books to be horribly wrong in that way, jumping from one thing that is easy, something else that is a bit challenging, then something else that just doesn't work in that book for most students.

I mentioned the books I grew up with, Journeys through Bookland. The magic of those books was that although they were "graded" in 10 volumes, you could move through all 10 volumes at will, and of course that meant that if you were good enough to read SOME of the stories in a volume, most likely you read anything in lower volumes. But that didn't mean you couldn't stretch yourself with something even higher.

I was fascinated with myths and started to search through all volumes. It's not quite that easy with music, but it is similar.

I did the same thing with music. I had stacks of music I inherited from my aunts and my grandmother, and I explored everything. I mangled some things, but that's how I became an expert reader of music and it lead to one of my first jobs, getting paid as a vocal accompanist at around age 15.

Last edited by Gary D.; 02/07/17 03:22 AM.

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