Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
54 registered members (AlphaBravoCharlie, CyberGene, cfrederi, Chrispy, 36251, Animisha, Chopin Acolyte, akc42, 12 invisible), 1,183 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY #2611631
02/04/17 03:51 PM
02/04/17 03:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 92
J
Jorge Andrade Offline OP
Full Member
Jorge Andrade  Offline OP
Full Member
J

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 92
Hi all,

I want to learn how to tune pianos, I have 2 I can practice on. Any recommendations on a tuning lever I should by? I don' know if that matters much but I don't even know if I'm going to like it or continue doing this, but I don't mind spending a little more if the benefits far outweigh the cost. I did try searching for this topic before posting but I didn't really see anything that would help me out. Thank you all.

(ad 800)
PTG Journals
PTG Journal
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2611639
02/04/17 04:36 PM
02/04/17 04:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8
Belgium
Nauwelaerts Offline
Junior Member
Nauwelaerts  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 8
Belgium
I use a Jahn tuning lever (a handle combined with a L-form tip size #3). They are very solid and they fit very well on the tuning pins.
They are not expensive and they work much better than the most extension levers, which flex a lot!
Jahn levers will last for always: they don't break. If you also buy an extra long L-form tip, on a grand piano you can keep tuning in the highest treble in a comfortable position.
This is the lever I use. smile

Jahn website

Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2611643
02/04/17 05:01 PM
02/04/17 05:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,230
Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rysowers  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,230
Olympia, WA
The Levitan Classic from Pianotek. It's not cheap but it has big advantages in control and feel. Last I checked it was around $175.



Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2611665
02/04/17 06:42 PM
02/04/17 06:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 917
D
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member
DanS  Offline
500 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 917
I researched this quite a bit about a year ago. Fujan and Faulk seem to be very popular (I have a Faulk and I like it a lot-my teacher busts my chops because it looks fancy, but he admits it's a good lever). People also have had positive things to say about Levitan and the Mother Goose Tools Plateau Lever, which are both less expensive. I've been considering getting the Mother Goose Tools lever...

Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2611708
02/04/17 10:46 PM
02/04/17 10:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 905
B
Bosendorff Offline
500 Post Club Member
Bosendorff  Offline
500 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 905
Hi Jorge,

I tune my own piano too and decided to buy all basic tools needed for tuning and regulation some years ago. About the tuning lever itself, if your budget is limited you can start with a cheaper one if you want, but do not buy the gooseneck type. On the other hand, you need to buy a tip of good quality. So it's best to invest more in the tip than in the lever if they come separated. Got a Watanabe one and it's very solid.

Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Bosendorff] #2611709
02/04/17 10:48 PM
02/04/17 10:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,043
Michigan
K
kpembrook Offline
Platinum Subscriber
kpembrook  Offline
Platinum Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
K

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,043
Michigan
The Mother Goose lever will put more tip on the pin than some because of the height of the handle above the point of contact with the tuning pin.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2611736
02/05/17 02:53 AM
02/05/17 02:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
More important than tuning lever is understanding how the tensions, elastic deformation of the pin, and friction all affect stability. I still use a basic extension hammer after 17 years tuning professionally.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2611755
02/05/17 05:18 AM
02/05/17 05:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
If I have been asked this last year I have said buy a carbon fiber tuning hammer because of its rigidity and lightness.

But now, after trying the tapping technique with pleasant results, I say buy a student tuning hammer, it makes no difference.


Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Gadzar] #2612129
02/06/17 01:32 PM
02/06/17 01:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
Cincinnati, OH
H
HelloMrZebra Offline
Full Member
HelloMrZebra  Offline
Full Member
H

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
Cincinnati, OH
You should do a video for the tapping technique. I can't get good stability with this technique. How do you set the pin or compensate for overshooting the pitch??

Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2612211
02/06/17 06:51 PM
02/06/17 06:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
I do not set the pin. I just tap on the hammer, up or down to pitch, with my extended fingers, perpendicular to the shaft. If I overshoot then I tap on the opposite direction. I love this technique for minute changes in pitch (less than a cent) to tune unisons for example.

I check stability only with test blows, I do not touch the tuning hammer, never.

I have now at my shop a birdcage piano I'm repairing. It has very loose pins, difficult to tune because you easily overshoot. I'll make a video tuning it with a student tuning hammer.


Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2612226
02/06/17 07:56 PM
02/06/17 07:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Here it is.

I'm doing a 600 cents pitch raise. In this pass I'm raising 100 cents approx. I strip muted the whole piano and tuned the center string of each unison.

Now I'm going to tune the second string of each unison by strip muting every other unison.

[Linked Image]

So, I tune the left string of the first unison, then the right string of the next one, then the right string of the next, etc... left, right, left, right...



Lol. This is not a Goldilocks piano! Eh Jeff?


P.S. At 3:45 I cheated. I used my nudging technique to raise pitch instead of tapping on the lever. crazy whome

Last edited by Gadzar; 02/06/17 08:46 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Gadzar] #2612286
02/07/17 12:14 AM
02/07/17 12:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
Cincinnati, OH
H
HelloMrZebra Offline
Full Member
HelloMrZebra  Offline
Full Member
H

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
Cincinnati, OH
Thanks for uploading the video! I've used this tapping method before on a very tight pinblock, and I couldn't get stability. So with the tapping method you don't have to account for the twisting or bending of the pin? Just tap up or down to pitch? Hammer angle doesn't matter?

I've been using the smooth pull method where I bring it over pitch and then reverse direction pushing and striking the key really hard to settle it back down. Smooth pull is very time consuming for me and hard on the ears. Sometimes it may take me 5 mins to tune a 3 string unison. Although with the smooth pull I can feel the torsion going down and the key striking decreasing the torsion. So I can feel whats going on better??

Last edited by HelloMrZebra; 02/07/17 12:15 AM.
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2612292
02/07/17 12:48 AM
02/07/17 12:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
In verticals I place the lever in an angle that locks the tip against the tuning pin, between 10:00 to almost 12:00 O'Clock for lowering pitch and between 2:00 to almost 12:00 for raising pitch.

I tap with my fingers at a right angle to the lever.

In grands I place the lever between 10:00 to almost 3:00 O'Clock in order to lock the tip to the pin in the desired direction (CW or CCW).

I do not set the pins. I feel the resistance opposed by the pin, I feel when it moves, tough sometimes I hear the pitch changing without feeling any movement of the pin. When I'm unsure it's stable I play forte blows to check and retune if it moved.

Yes, I tune directly to pitch. Well, I strive to land directly at the wanted pitch. No setting of the pin, not making the string render, just tap to pitch.

No matter how tight or loose the pins are in the pinblock, just tap with the needed heaviness or lightness to make them move.

This is a true impact technique. I do not grab the lever in my hand, I do not push/pull on the lever. I just tap on it.


In this case, this piano, with these old rusty strings, I would be afraid to break strings if using a smooth pull to raise the pitch a whole semitone.

P.S. As you can see in the video, I'm not fast using this technique, I still have to think before doing. I am too used to my nudging technique amd I must be aware of not using it. Speed will come with practice.


Last edited by Gadzar; 02/07/17 12:57 AM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2612465
02/07/17 05:24 PM
02/07/17 05:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,637
Canberra, ACT, Australia
C
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,637
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Rafael, if you placed the hammer clock position opposite to what you are doing in the video then there will be a short period of lost motion for each tap before the tip actually engages with the pin. That is actually how it work for proper impact hammers. The theory is, I think, that the lost motion enables speed and inertia to build up before the impact happens which should provide a more intense and sharper impact. In the case of your piano, the pins appear to be so loose that it would not be work well I think, but how about for tight pins?


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2612516
02/07/17 08:37 PM
02/07/17 08:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
M
Mark Cerisano Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Mark Cerisano  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
M

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,087
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I encourage everyone to consider NSL tension, how it's affected by hammer technique, how it is changed when the hammer force is removed, where it needs to be after the hammer force is removed.

Adherence to any one technique means you will find pianos that don't behave the way you expect. Understanding NSL tension means you can change what you are doing, and know how it will improve stability.


Mark Cerisano, RPT, B.Sc.(Mech.Eng), Dip.Ed.(Music)
www.howtotunepianos.com
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Chris Leslie] #2612541
02/07/17 11:24 PM
02/07/17 11:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Rafael, if you placed the hammer clock position opposite to what you are doing in the video then there will be a short period of lost motion for each tap before the tip actually engages with the pin. That is actually how it work for proper impact hammers. The theory is, I think, that the lost motion enables speed and inertia to build up before the impact happens which should provide a more intense and sharper impact. In the case of your piano, the pins appear to be so loose that it would not be work well I think, but how about for tight pins?


Have you tried impact tuning with a non impact hammer?

I mean impact tuning hammers are not designed to have a loose fit between the tip and the tuning pins. They have a free play between the lever and tip. And they have the required mass in the lever, which can be adjusted up and down to produce the desired intensity in the impacts.

This is not so in this case, with a student lever and a very large tip for the size of the pins of this piano. This lost motion is precisely what I want to suppress by placing the hammer the way I do. The speed and inertia are provided by my forearm, wrist, hand and fingers, which I can control much better than a lever.

Yes, these pins are so loose that in some cases the pitch moves only by puting/removing the lever on/from the pin. See my video at 1:06, The pitch was almost imperceptibly flat but when I removed the hammer and put it back on the pin with the lever at 2:00 O'Colck the pitch droped flagrantly.

About tight pins: I just have to put more energy in my taps, with my forearm and wrist, it works fine even for very tight pins. In fact it works better with tight pins, I have more control on the pitch and can tune right on pitch, without overshooting.

P.S. With this tapping technique you do not have to worry about the NSL tension nor about the setting of the pins.

And with the smooth pull technique controlling the NSL tension is half the things you must control to achieve a stable tuning. The other half is in controling the twisting/flexing of the pin, i.e. the setting of the pin.

Last edited by Gadzar; 02/07/17 11:54 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2612705
02/08/17 05:36 PM
02/08/17 05:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,637
Canberra, ACT, Australia
C
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,637
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Slightly off-topic, but do you plan to treat the tuning pin holes with CA glue for that Birdcage piano?


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2612792
02/09/17 12:06 AM
02/09/17 12:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gadzar  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City

Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Slightly off-topic, but do you plan to treat the tuning pin holes with CA glue for that Birdcage piano?


Yes, I did it last night. After finishing the 100 cents pitch raise.

[Linked Image]






The pinblock has several cracks like this one, I poured some CA in them, I don't know if this will help to stop further damages.







Here is how it sounds after the 100 cents pitch raise






After seeing the condition of the pinblock I decided to leave it at this pitch, approx. 220 cents flat from A 440.


I will tune it again after refinishing the cabinet and then I will see the effects of the CA treatment.

The owner of this piano asked us to refinish the piano, it has a very nice rosewood veneer and it has genuine ivory keytops and ebony sharps. It will be a nice piece of furniture.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Jorge Andrade] #2612809
02/09/17 02:13 AM
02/09/17 02:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,637
Canberra, ACT, Australia
C
Chris Leslie Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Chris Leslie  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,637
Canberra, ACT, Australia
Great. I always these days do the bridges at the same time. It is amazing how many high treble false beats get eliminated when the bridge pins are tight.

I like your applicator tip.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning lever tips for beginner DIY [Re: Gadzar] #2613339
02/10/17 06:01 PM
02/10/17 06:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
Cincinnati, OH
H
HelloMrZebra Offline
Full Member
HelloMrZebra  Offline
Full Member
H

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 212
Cincinnati, OH
Rafael can you perhaps upload a video of how you do steady pull tuning technique on pins?

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Long Distance Piano Moving
by jojousa. 08/22/19 10:20 PM
A Scale Per Day or Per Week or Per...
by writebynight. 08/22/19 10:13 PM
1998 C1 vs. 2016 CG1
by inna_denver. 08/22/19 07:21 PM
What's Hot!!
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics193,681
Posts2,861,681
Members94,222
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1