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Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2609974
01/30/17 02:21 PM
01/30/17 02:21 PM
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Because people like you are not interested in being objective.


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Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: Beemer] #2610066
01/30/17 07:54 PM
01/30/17 07:54 PM
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Maine, USA
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I never labor over these things... Human science is never perfect (and sometimes not even in the realm of reality at all). Theory is simply that- "theory".
You can't beat learning to set temp by ear, and training the ear TO HEAR. It gives great advantages and benefits, especially when it comes to the quarrels around theories, stretch-possibilities, and acu-tuners programing...
Tune it to sound the best it can. If you can get there with a machine, more power to you- but, I've yet to see a machine tuning that didn't need tweaking by ear to be right in certain areas.
In the argument over what is right (in tune)- the ear should be the final judge- not a machine; since the machine will neither be playing, nor listening to the music.
Just my opinion anyway.


Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610077
01/30/17 09:09 PM
01/30/17 09:09 PM
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Bradford County, PA
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Originally Posted by BDB
Because people like you are not interested in being objective.


Too bad you didn't have something constructive to say.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2610093
01/30/17 10:30 PM
01/30/17 10:30 PM
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That is how I have felt about your posts about tuning ever since you were unable to show a calculation that you claimed to have made.


Semipro Tech
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610102
01/30/17 10:51 PM
01/30/17 10:51 PM
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Vancouver, Canada
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Originally Posted by BDB
That is how I have felt about your posts about tuning ever since you were unable to show a calculation that you claimed to have made.

Why don't you explain again that all ideas about partials people have believed in for over 100 years are wrong and should be supplanted with your "theory" of combinatorics?

Kees

Last edited by DoelKees; 01/31/17 12:27 AM. Reason: Added quotation marks to 'theory'
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: DoelKees] #2610156
01/31/17 02:56 AM
01/31/17 02:56 AM
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Since I have explained it before, and since you claim not to understand it, perhaps you could be explicit about what you do not understand.

Perhaps you could also explain what I do not understand, including several things that I have asked before without receiving answers:

How do you define the frequency or pitch number of a piano note?
What generates the "partials" of a piano note?
How are audible beats produced? I should add, if not by the method that I have demonstrated graphically?


Semipro Tech
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: Beemer] #2610230
01/31/17 08:16 AM
01/31/17 08:16 AM
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Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Beemer

I think he means "some thickness". Rigidity has no effect because the string is straight at the node. However, the string is not straight at the string ends.

I think rigidity is the more relevant factor, not thickness. But you are right in that rigidity does not matter at the nodes since the nodes do not have to bend. The rigidity matters everywhere else, and that is what causes inharmonicity.

The only way theory can predict perfectly harmonic partials is when the restoring force during vibration is due only to the spring constant of the string in the longitudinal direction. If anything else causes an addition restoring force above and beyond what the longitudinal spring constant is providing, that will raise the frequency of vibration at that partial.

Since higher partials involve more bending that lower partials, the frequency of the higher partials will be higher than they would be without the transverse rigidity. Note that this even affects the fundamental a little because there is a little bending going on at the fundamental too. However it would be very difficult to demonstrate this experimentally because you would have to devise a string with the same mass and longitudinal spring constant, but a radically different transverse rigidity. Maybe some very carefully made wound strings?...



Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610233
01/31/17 08:30 AM
01/31/17 08:30 AM
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Minnesota
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The discussion of ear vs. machine is complicated by the fact that we have several phenomena in play at once. On the ear side, there is a matter of psycho-acoustics that is subjective and difficult to relate to precise measurement. But there is also the matter of beats which are objective and affect both the machine and the human ear. When beats are not a factor, human perception of what is "correct" is what it is. There may be a human desire to hear stretched octaves. I don't know. That desire might even be culturally conditioned. However when beats are a factor, humans tend to pay attention to them and perceive them as "out of tune". It is beats in the presence of inharmonicity that cause us to make stretched octaves ("stretched" in terms of the fundamental). It is not an artifact of machine tuning. Tuners have been tuning stretched octaves since before there were machines for measuring tuning. But they would not be aware of it because to them they were just trying to tune beatless octaves.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610234
01/31/17 08:40 AM
01/31/17 08:40 AM
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Bradford County, PA
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Originally Posted by BDB
That is how I have felt about your posts about tuning ever since you were unable to show a calculation that you claimed to have made.


BDB, you are free to feel however you want about whatever you want, but trying to manipulate others by making them feel guilty about how you say you feel can have unintended consequences.

I don't know for certain what instance you are referring to. I was probably unwilling, rather than unable, to show the calculations because I saw the question as not being made in earnest. If you remember the details, we could try again on a fresh Topic. smile

Holding a grudge certainly isn't being objective, is it?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610308
01/31/17 12:43 PM
01/31/17 12:43 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,503
Vancouver, Canada
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Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Why don't you explain again that all ideas about partials people have believed in for over 100 years are wrong and should be supplanted with your "theory" of combinatorics?

Since I have explained it before, and since you claim not to understand it, perhaps you could be explicit about what you do not understand.

Perhaps you could also explain what I do not understand, including several things that I have asked before without receiving answers:

How do you define the frequency or pitch number of a piano note?
What generates the "partials" of a piano note?
How are audible beats produced? I should add, if not by the method that I have demonstrated graphically?

The reason for my suggestion was that since you declared all responses to the OP's question "unscientific", the contributors to this thread might like to hear from you what a truly scientific explanation of stretch is.

I am personally not interested as I consider your "theory", which denies the existence of partials, to be pseudoscience of the "flat-earth" type.

Kees


Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: Beemer] #2610315
01/31/17 01:02 PM
01/31/17 01:02 PM
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I see that nobody wants to take a stab at my three questions.


Semipro Tech
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: DoelKees] #2610320
01/31/17 01:14 PM
01/31/17 01:14 PM
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Maine, USA
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At the danger of grabbing a dog by the ears here...
Science is a human understanding of something (changes with new information)- to think one knows(i.e. so-called, "knowledge" = "science").

Too many times our knowledge ('what we think we know') puffs up- and a little more humbleness on the part of the human ego could perhaps actually help lead to the Truth- (an altogether different word than science)...

I might note that,

Denying Truth is called self-deception...

Denying science presented at face value (without a complete presentation of truth to support) merely makes one cautious, and rather intelligent in my opinion.


Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610347
01/31/17 02:05 PM
01/31/17 02:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
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Originally Posted by BDB
I see that nobody wants to take a stab at my three questions.


I think the point has been thoroughly discussed here in PW in other threads and you insist to deny the evidence shown to you.



Rafael Melo
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Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: Gadzar] #2610359
01/31/17 02:32 PM
01/31/17 02:32 PM
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Oakland
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And one more poster cannot answer the questions!


Semipro Tech
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610361
01/31/17 02:32 PM
01/31/17 02:32 PM
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Bradford County, PA
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Originally Posted by BDB
I see that nobody wants to take a stab at my three questions.


I would give answers if I thought they were earnest questions, but they are not. You know perfectly well what the conventional answers are, and you know that nobody will give the answers you think are correct, or perhaps they are just trick questions like "Why do people drive on a parkway and park on a drive way." You have a hidden agenda, of course.

If there is a subject you want to bring up, simply start a new Topic and bring it up rather than playing games and piggy-backing on this one.



Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: UnrightTooner] #2610365
01/31/17 02:37 PM
01/31/17 02:37 PM
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One more!


Semipro Tech
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610369
01/31/17 02:45 PM
01/31/17 02:45 PM
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Bradford County, PA
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Originally Posted by BDB
One more!


Childish! Matt 11:16-17


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610374
01/31/17 03:19 PM
01/31/17 03:19 PM
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Montreal
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Originally Posted by BDB
I see that nobody wants to take a stab at my three questions.


I'll answer by asking you to perform a couple of experiments which, hopefully, your hypothesis will be able to explain.

(1). Raise the damper on E3 using the sustain pedal. Play E4. What do you hear? Why?
(2). Raise the damper on E4. Play E3. What do you hear? Why?
(3). Raise the damper on E3. Play E5. What do you hear? Now play E4. What do you hear now? Explain your observations.

Play a 200Hz sine tone into a loudspeaker. Describe the motion of the cone.
Play a 400Hz sine tone into a speaker. Describe the motion.
Now play both the 200Hz and 400Hz sines at the same time. What do you hear? How is the cone moving?

Using Audacity, generate an anti-aliased square wave at 0.5 amplitude and 200Hz. Now add another track and generate a 601Hz sine wave at amplitude 0.5. Play both tracks back simultaneously. What do you hear? Why?

Pluck a guitar string at different points along its length. Explain why the timbre changes.

Why do piano manufacturers set the hammer strike point where they do. How does this affect the tone? Why?

Please explain all of your observations above using your hypothesis.

As for the pitch of a note - do you mean measured or perceived? You can experiment with this with inharmonic tones using audacity with various relative amplitudes, including setting the fundamental to zero, or with an additive synthesizer.

Paul.

Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610375
01/31/17 03:25 PM
01/31/17 03:25 PM
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Minnesota
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Originally Posted by BDB

How do you define the frequency or pitch number of a piano note?

You can't, since the piano sound is not a periodic waveform. You can only define the frequency of its various partials. Asking for the pitch of a note is like asking for the pitch of C-major chord.

Quote
What generates the "partials" of a piano note?

The various modes of vibration.

Quote
How are audible beats produced?

By the variations in amplitude of the combination of two or more partials from different strings. Or in the case of "false beats", they are produced by the combination of two or more modes of vibration of the same string, usually horizontal vs. vertical.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: What is happening when we use stretch tuning? [Re: BDB] #2610625
02/01/17 03:22 PM
02/01/17 03:22 PM
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Posts: 457
Montreal
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Originally Posted by BDB
I see that nobody wants to take a stab at my three questions.


Robert answered them and I asked you some follow-up questions.

Perhaps you could respond to both of us at some point?

Paul.

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