Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Want to upgrade to a baby grand/grand piano

Figured I'd just start a new thread

When I was learning piano as a kid, my parents got a Yamaha U3 that I played on for the last 15-20 or so years. I haven't had access to it lately since I went to college and later moved, but I am about to move back to my hometown. They are willing to give me the piano. It's a very lovely piano, but I've always somewhat dreamt of owning a baby grand piano (or grand, if it would work in the house) and my mom hinted my dad may be open to the idea of getting one for me as a present (belated wedding present? belated graduation present? or some other excuse hehe). Anyway, even if he isn't open, I'd still like to consider getting one.

Hubby and I are moving back and getting a house that will have a den, that I would like to turn into a studio. I've started teaching here and there and I'm enjoying it. I'm not too sure how big the den is yet.

I'm new to the market of pianos. What is the least or how much should I expect to pay to get a grand piano (used or otherwise) that would be an upgrade in an instrument from my current U3, assuming the U3 is in good condition and has been well taken care of?

What brands should I be considering? I do favor Yamahas since that's what I am used to, but I'm open to other reputable brands.

The best value in grand pianos are finely rebuilt Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin and some Chickerings. The caveat is you need to find one that was properly rebuilt. Many rebuilt grands found in used piano stores may look rather good on the exterior, but when you examine the technical aspects, much is found wanting.

I suggest you find an excellent piano technician/rebuilder first. Talk to music teachers in your area and schools of music to find out who they know/use. Some experienced technician/rebuilders have clients that are aging out of piano ownership and may want to sell their grand.

Good luck! And since you are a professional teacher your piano purchase will be a tax deductible expense, (likely on a depreciation schedule).

If you played for 20 years, definitely go for a grand

There are many top brands, it's a matter of taste.

I suggest to visit some large dealers and play all the brands to get an idea.

If you played Yamaha, you will probably end up with Yamaha. But who knows. Better check all brands before you spend a lot of money.

Hello hello my name is

Word of mouth, reputation, or "value" of a piano all have virtually nothing to do with what you like, are accustomed to, or wish to own, so get yourself out there and visit as many dealers, homes, churches, schools, studios, or wherever they're for sale as you can, to experience each brand, model, and example for yourself. There are no buyers guides, websites, or overzealous mind reading piano salesmen who know what you want, so it's only through your own personal interaction with as many pianos as you can will you find that which pushes your buttons.

Simple brand recognition is never a guaranteed indication of value, with the word "condition" cancelling out any preconceived notions of grandeur. Famous makers of pianos have lemons, no two from the same maker are alike, and no makers piano is immune from neglect. As such, each must stand on their own merit, as if they bore no nameplate...

I unsuspectedly happened upon a 37 year old used Yamaha C7D in immaculate condition, which was given a great bill of health but needed some regulation, along with the filing and voicing of it's original hammers, which added $1k to it's price. And it was well worth it IMHO, as it is a fabulous instrument which gives me great joy and pleasure on a daily basis.

Yet many have an immediate and negative knee jerk reaction to the name "Yamaha"...with the most common reaction, or should I say complaint being "they're too bright." I even had a friend who was just barely in his piano infancy parrot the very same commentary to me, which I did find to be true only when these pianos were placed on concrete floors in large rooms with completely empty walls. But oddly enough, under these very same conditions that are typically found at piano dealerships, I found this condition to be replicated by many other brands, yet I never hear of this, so maybe it's just a dislike of the brand, especially by their American made competitors...

Regardless of the manufacturers "reputation" I found this particular Yamaha that I happened upon to be exceptional in tone and power throughout it's entire range, providing me with a delightful delicacy and strength that pianos reportedly tiers above it couldn't match. Puzzled by this I continued my "testing" of other well known brands, and much to my surprise, the disappointments continued. Admittedly there were a number of brands that I couldn't try because there just weren't any examples in my area to sample, such as Fazioli and Bösendorfer, but those are beyond the average persons payscale, including my own. What good is something to you if you can't afford it?

What I did find was that I was indeed fond of only two other examples...a particular Schimmel Konzert K230, with a tremendous bass, a great touch, and awesome tone, and a Shigeru Kawai SK-6, with a wonderfully light touch and super clear tone.

Everything else I tried, including the big hitters like Steinway and M&H left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

This just goes to prove how all things piano are subjective. So please consider my comments here as being just a mutual sharing of my own personal findings and conclusions, designed to invoke thought, and which should have no bearing whatsoever on your own decisions, which are ultimately yours and yours alone to make.

Best wishes in finding a piano that you'll enjoy and own proudly, and don't be afraid of making that choice, even if it doesn't align with what the piano Xspurts insist you capitulate towards.

Regards,
Andy

Can you give us an idea of your budget? IMO spending the least that would be an upgrade from your U3 may not be the best approach to finding a piano.

Hi Pianoloverus! Why wouldn't it be the best approach? : ) It's all I want practically. Honestly I don't have a "budget" but I do know I don't want to spend as much on a piano as I would on a car. At least less than 10,000 would be ideal, but I'm not sure what's reasonable.

This Piano Buyers' Guide http://www.craftsmanpiano.net/blog/piano-buyers-guide/ says
"If you have a budget of less than $7,500.00, do not consider buying a grand piano from a dealer. A really good upright such as a Yamaha U1 will serve you much better than an inexpensive grand piano."
Do you all agree? This is why I'm unsure about going for a grand. Perhaps if I only am willing to spend enough to get an inexpensive grand piano, then it wouldn't even be worth it.

Thanks DrewBone for your very long exposition! I don't find Yamahas "too bright" either. What I don't like is pianos with either heavy action (the Steinways I have played.. I'm a petite size person) or too light of action (most of my friend's pianos who had non-serious kids take lessons so they are likely cheaper pianos). Not sure if I'm using the terminology right.

Ed-- Yes, a good technician seems to be key. I will try to check in with my old piano teacher who is still in the area! Great suggestion.

My feeling is that if you want to upgrade to a grand which is better than a U3, you should start looking for pianos in the 5-1/2 to 6 foot range that sell new for about $25000 or more.

I thought your approach wasn't the best because you seemed to want to find a piano that was the minimum amount "better" than your U3.

Now that you hinted at a budget of 10K you use the search function in the Piano Buyer(see left column) to find new grands that fit your budget. Make sure to include an assumed discount from the SMP.

I'm not sure you need to spend 25K as BDB suggested, but OTOH I think many will say that a 10K budget will not get a new grand better than a U3. I am not familiar with the selling prices for Chinese grands but my guess is that many will recommend the better ones....Hailun, Ritmuller, Brodmann, and Cunningham as being your best choice. You probably have to up your budget to get one of those pianos in a large enough size to be a clear improvement over a U3. After all, a new U3 costs 10k+.

Thank you BDB! That's really helpful.

PianoLover-- Couldn't I look for a used grand? For example, if I looked at something like this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-G2-Grand-Piano-58-Polished-Ebony-/222383101404?hash=item33c710d5dc:g:mdgAAOSw44BYbu7l
It was built in 1962 though. Too old?

In the area I will be moving to (central CA), there doesn't seem to be a whole lot available, but there is a 1994 Yamaha Disklavier 5'7" selling for around 13k

I only partly agree. It's safe to say a new one for that price would not be much of a grand piano. But I bought mine from a dealer for 5000EUR USED (after some bargaining, the original asking price was 8500EUR). My other option cost 18000EUR (a used Bosie). These two stood out from the lot though and I looked for some years (our market for smaller used grands is very scarce). So it might take some work to find what you need and want.

I know I will have to invest on the piano at some point to make it perfect because it's over 60 years old, but it's playable as it is and I cannot imagine any upright giving me the same playing experience as a grand. I have a U1 but I don't want to play it anymore now that I have this grand...

But I must add that I also don't need or want anything too loud in my home. I rarely even open the grand and mostly keep it covered. The U1 has a louder bass than my grand (and poor middle register) so it also depends on what you want from your playing experience. One weakness of U1 is the touch and the keytop material which really suck imo.

You are going to get a much better value for your budget by limiting yourself to used grands. This forum is full of piano techs who see people get burned all the time buying junk on ebay/craigslist as well as dealers who make their livelihood selling new pianos, so the general consensus here tends to be biased against used. But you are not a newbie - you have been playing for 20 years so you can clearly play well enough to put a piano through its paces and recognize what you like and don't like. That said, my advice would be to use craigslist, ebay, the piano selling page here, etc. and find anything that looks promising that is within your budget and distance range to make an in-person visit. Ask lots of questions. Narrow it down, and then go visit to play it. Do that as often and with as many pianos as you can and you will quickly get a sense of what is total crap and what has real potential. My piano shopping experience took over a year. I traveled up to 3-4 hours away to play pianos I found on ebay and craigslist. I also visited local dealers and played both their new and used selections (both rebuilds and just plain "used" trade-ins and such). I was often disappointed by the pianos once I saw them in person but with each trip I learned something.

I ultimately ended up buying a piano that was only about a half hour from me -- for sale by a private owner who had just become a piano tech. It was his personal piano and he had sent it out for bellywork then restored the action on it himself intending to keep it. But a Steinway B that needed restoration sort of fell into his lap, so he was selling his current piano to make room for the Steinway. I first played it when it turned up on craigslist in December and thought it was a nice piano, but not exactly what I wanted (I had my heart set on the big sound of a 1920s Mason & Hamlin - specifically an A or maybe an AA) -- this was a 1920s Chickering and it was a little more delicate and reserved than the Mason/Steinway sound that I wanted (and also larger - it was 6'5" and I really didn't think I had enough space!). But after looking around for several more months, I kept coming back to it (it helped that he kept dropping the price -- not much market around here for 6'5" grands apparently). Each time I played it, I thought it played and sounded better (I think he was tweaking the action and voicing the hammers etc.). I must have gone back to his house 3 or 4 times before it finally won me over. And some of it was driven by price -- a comparably-sized similarly-rebuilt Mason would have been $25K+, while I ended up negotiating the Chickering to $11K -- my thinking was basically that the Chickering wasn't quite as amazing as the Mason but it sure wasn't worth spending more than twice as much for what would only be a tiny improvement.

But now that I have owned the piano for 10+ years, I can say that I have absolutely no regrets -- in fact given the acoustics of my room, the sound I was hoping to get from a Mason AA would probably have been way, way too much. The Chickering has really settled into itself and sounds and plays amazing. And the techs that have tuned it have felt similarly - my current tech offers to buy it from me every time he tunes it. There is no way I could have touched a similar piano new for anywhere near what I spent.

So I guess what I am saying is don't fear the used market - just play as many pianos as you can and be prepared to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince. And when you do find "the one", do spend the money to get it checked out by a tech (I did, even though mine was being sold by a tech!). The $100-150 you will spend doing that is a drop in the bucket compared to the price of the piano and may save you from an expensive mistake. I would NOT buy anything that you can't play for yourself first though -- I can vouch from personal experience that pianos that looked amazing in the listing -- even ones that sounded amazing when the sellers sent youtube videos or recordings -- were often much, much less amazing in person. So unless you can see and play it for yourself, stay away!

Good luck!

If I were you, when you move back, would be to get the U3 tuned and regulated. I assume your folks don't play so it would need that work anyhow before it was sold.

Perhaps then you might re-love that piano?

I sense some uncertainty as you mention baby grand (or a grand). Unless going for a high quality brand a 'baby grand' is a lesser instrument than the U3. These baby grands were and are made to attract a market that is more concerned with lloks and image than tone. Many have bass strings that are shorter than the U3 upright.

A grand piano of at least a length 5ft 4" will require a floor length of 8ft 4" to allow a technician to work on it.

Have you considered that your parents might not be aware of the cost of a grand piano and of the trade in value of a 25 year old U3 upright?

There may be a performance reason that you prefer a grand, e.g. it's note repetition ability, or louder bass, but for less cost you could buy a new premium upright. Yamaha uprights with a type starting with a "Y" are premium.

I suppose I am biased to an upright because my 'upgrade' was to a premium German upright, but I wish for you a piano of what ever type that brings you much happiness and enjoyment.

Ian

hi hello

Ten grand is a figure I've heard more than a few times from first-time piano buyers who want a grand. It certainly seems like a round sum to people who haven't totally lost sight of the value of money. It doesn't grow on my trees, anyway. And so, I thought the same myself.

I had to unlearn it.

My Kawai RX-5, a six-and-a-half-foot grand, new, cost in the neighborhood of $30 to 35 grand. I have somewhat lost track over the years. There's the price on the sign on top of the piano, the price my dealer eventually offered me, and which I accepted. Then there was the sales tax (talk about a round sum). There were the benches and piano lamps I first tried, none of which seemed like bargain basement prices, but which I discarded after learning of their uselessness. So there came into my home the good Jansen Artist bench, at $800, plus the new set of longer legs at an additional $100 (which I might have saved by ordering them in the first place, had I known they would be necessary, but, if that's the price of a piano education, it is modest enough as I look at the whole panorama). And the balance arm piano lamp at, what, $300? I think that's right. Plus and plus: sales tax and shipping, namely. The maker is a well-known one, but my memory is porus; I do remember that I ordered it from PW's sister site, http://pianosupplies.com . Handsome, just the right amount of light in just the right place; I haven't regretted it.

I haven't regretted any of it.

Lessons. One teacher at $80/hr., plus the school for posture and corrective measures for back pain she sent me to. Another teacher, whom I liked a lot better, at $50/hr., and who came to my home and taught me on my own piano. All those tabulations are as the smoke of burning currency notes--- not to cast aspersions on these folk. I just don't remember the total, but I can assure you that it came to a round sum.

Then, my great personal weakness: scores. Let us say, that I realized that in many cases--- ok, almost all--- that I would have to grow into them. I see it as a good thing; a tangible expression of my faith in myself, and of my commitment to musicianship. And in their wake, many and many CDs, to inform me of what those scores say. And frankly, they have been a great help, just as the spoken word helps the young child learn how to speak, and eventually, to spell.

Let us not forget books. Musician biographies, reference works, novels, histories of the evolution of the piano and its makers, and of music itself, and piano pedagogy. Many had to be ordered; others came my way thanks to used book stores--- frankly, many of these titles would be available in no other way. And shelves to house them: that figure I can give: 14 pieces at $50 per; add nearly 10% tax, subtract the "friend of the store" discount.

Finally, a DP, recording gear, software, a computer able to run it, and upgrades to that computer, which now needs to be replaced anyway. I am long past frightening myself with sticker shock. But let me say, that all these things have widened my horizons and have led me into the world of music, in a most economical way, considering what it would have cost to--- just for one example--- travel to the halls in which the renowned soloists performed. In my youth, almost none of this was available. There were pianos in homes (most, not very good uprights and those dreadful spinets, whose vogue had pretty much run its course). The only grands I ever laid my eyes on were the one in church, and the one in the choir director's home... and of course, Liberace's, on TV. I don't know I believed that either he or the pianos were real; after all, so much on TV was not.

I don't know, hello my name is, that any of this answers your question. What should you be considering? I would consider saving up a little more, and ordering your proirities. As for makes: Kawai (my personal favorite, and not just their midrange grands or top-of-the-line offerings; I used to play a far more modest little model at a community center, that I just loved. For them to expend so much of their genius and care on such a humble little piano, really spoke to me. Yamaha. Charles Walter (not such a well-known American make, but quite worth your effort to locate a seller and try out both their 1500 or 1520 uprights, and their two grand models, both designed by our own D. Fandrich.)

There are more makers to consider, but to be frank, I think your time would be better spent seriously trying out what these companies offer, both within ranges you might buy from, and upward from there, just to learn something.

Best of luck to you; you will need some, and some hard work, but I have a good feeling about your chances.

PS- I did not include in the above inventory, the money I have invested in concert series and other live music venues. It's not the easiest way to hear music, but I don't hesitate to say: Go! And don't hesitate to express your appreciation; in person, if you have the chance.

You seem to give yourself the answer while posing the question.

If really serious, you need to hit the pavement and try a few options out there.

Too bad you couldn't go to the just finished NAMM show in Anaheim.

From what I heard, the world has been moving on big time - just one more time...

Norbert

Outo-- where is your piano located in your house and how big is the room? My piano teacher had two grand pianos in her studio which was sort of an offshoot room from the foyer, so previously I never considered it could be a problem, but I've been noticing on the forums that these larger pianos may be a bit too much sound for an inadequately sized room
Norbert-- Aw, I wish I had known about it! I live just around the corner from Anaheim.

Thank you Jeff and Beemer and lkplatow for your thorough and articulate posts! I enjoyed reading them.

Ikplatow-- At some point, I will indeed get off my behind and kiss some frog pianos . Looking forward to learning a lot. I'm glad you have faith in my ability to recognize what I like and don't like. I've played some grand pianos in church that I would never buy for myself :P and once my friend in college bought a piano off of craigslist for almost free.. at that time I hadn't heard of such a thing, so I was impressed but then found it sounded and played quite awfully. I just wonder if a piano could sound and feel nice but then be taken home and fall apart on me a week later I suppose this would be where the tech comes in.
Beemer-- Good point. Home piano prob could use some TLC and a revisit from me Thanks for the details about baby grands and minimum space requirements for grands.
Jeff-- 10K does seem like a nice round number doesn't it? It's less than the cost of my car, but more than a laptop or my husband's espresso machine. :P You have made very convincing points. I also don't know that I want to plunk down $$$ because my husband and I would like to be movable and if I don't want to fly a piano across the world, I'd have to sell it and pianos seem to depreciate quite a lot.

Which one? I live in an apartment. Basically a concrete block, built in the late 70's with poor sound proofing. The baby grand is in the living room sized about 6x3,5m. The U1 is in the study, sized about 3,5x4m. The study has added acoustic elements, without them the sound was intolerable. The living room only has The original furniture (as much as I could fit in with the grand).

I'm the master of indecision and anxiety. I like to optimize every move but with so much uncertainty, I can't make any decisions As a result of past experiences, I lean toward avoiding big changes and instead do things incrementally, even if in hindsight, I should've made bigger changes to begin with. Alas.

So my advice to you is to move to your new house, grab that no-cost U3, and try it out for a while. Take your time piano shopping AFTER you've settled in. I'm sure you have plenty of other stuff to worry about in the meantime.

One interesting point that no one has mentioned, the Southern California piano market is probably (from what I've heard) the most competitive in the country. The stories about the lowest prices paid seem to always come from there. That's true now and will be for the foreseeable future (so no need to rush into shopping). Treat it as an educational expedition and try to have fun.

lol, are we twins? :P I'm the master of indecision and anxiety too. UGH. When I was little, people used to make fun of me cause they would ask me a question and I would say "I don't know" .. like "What's your favorite color?" .... I mean I STILL don't know..

Steve -- Thanks for the heads up!

Hi Beemer, I am uncertain about baby grand for this very reason-- what is a high quality brand baby grand? Looks and image are not my priority here, as you can imagine! For example, what about the Yamaha GB1 and GB2 or GH1 (Just throwing out things I'm seeing here) or similarly the Kawai GE series? I find it very odd that the strings could potentially be shorter than an upright! In socal there area lot of choices here it seems! Someone is selling a Yamaha G2 for less than 8k! That would fit the 5'5-six feet recommendation by BDB. So many pianos to see, so little time! Here I go, driving all around southern California... ahhh excited wish I could take some of you with me!

Update: The Den would be an 11' by 15' space if you count the hall area. Originally if it were a bedroom it would be 11' by 11'