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Oh yeah , without a doubt. And a better playing / feeling keyboard too.
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I feel I should a few more comments here. Normally when I buy a new keyboard there's a feeling of excitement. I have to honestly state that my original narrowing down my choice to the RD800 (or possibly the RD2000) was more a feeling of resignation than excitement. Nothing really knocked my socks off, it just seemed that the RD800 was the best choice of the keyboards from which I could presently choose. Now that I didn't buy that RD800 there was no feeling of disappointment. I'm now without a 'job' keyboard and if a job comes in I'll be forced to rent a keyboard from a friend or rent something better from a store. So, now I'll just take my time and will probably buy the RD2000 ... eventually. I'm surprised that there seems to be a consensus of sorts from the users and it would be great if the manufacturers would ask us our opinions. I know I am not alone, for example, with being disappointed in the default piano sound of the Kawai MP11. I didn't spend much time on the MP11 but within seconds scrolled down to the Jazz Piano. Why was the best sounding piano placed third in their menu? I've written about this before though perhaps not here. There are cultural differences in sound. When I was in Japan 30+ years ago I was amazed at the really gaudy colors used in their outdoor advertising. Those cultural differences are also probably still expressed in the sounds they prefer. Perhaps if I were born and raised in Japan I would just love the default piano in the MP11 instead of the third piano, the Jazz Piano. When I bought my CP5 six years ago, I really didn't give it a good test. I figured since it was a Yamaha and their second best at that time, it had to be good. Within a short amount of time I realized that I was solely disappointed in their Rhodes pianos. I really had to tweak them to make them reasonable. Well, thanks for listening. Maybe I'm just getting old and cranky.
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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If the action is the same (which it is between the FP-90 and RD-2000) and te engine is the same (which is probably the case as well), both piano's should play and sound the same when played through the same headphones, if the settings are the same.
I agree, but it is somehow part of our human nature to validate the most expensive and ''latest greatest''as the best. The original Yamaha KX88 is seen as one of the best controller keyboards ever, due to it's wooden action and more......Strangely enough every Yamaha S,P and CP have received ''upgraded'' actions compared to the previous model. If that were true than the original KX88 would totally pale compared with todays latest Yamaha stage piano offerings... But, i still read on various forums that the original KX88 was/IS still one of the best.... I personally don't fall for the action upgrades (sound upgrades are more accurate and audible now and then) it is a travesty that has gone way out of proportion..... Read how people rave about the extremely precise Roland PHA-III action in the V-piano when it came out. and how every new action is clearly superiour than what was ''super duper'' in the first place. And of course everyone can clearly feel that the PHA-50 is the next best thing untill the PHA-50+ comes along......''now that will be considered a major upgrade from the original PHA-50''. And then someone buys a secondhand Kawai MP9000 or Yamaha KX88 from Ebay to publically state that those are the best actions he/she ever encountered. I still use a Kawai MP8, test each and every new model when it comes out (most brands) and i have found nothing really worth to upgrade and a vast majority of latest ''super duper triple sensored actions'' that are so inferiour compared to the MP8 that i sometimes cannot believe what is said about those new hot actions. People should test blinfolded only and choose what comes out as the ''winner''. Even a good 1983 Violin was chosen over a Stradivarius without measerable pricetag by professional violinists who were blindfolded but could play the thing in realtime. Some even ''heard/felt'' the soul of the true ancient Italien master in the 1983 violin that they had mistaken for a Stradivarius. And many similar tests have showed how gullible we can be when we are fead with secondary info (flagship, latest greatest, upgrade, brandname, price, famous endorser etc.) that clearly clouds our perception. True enough. I have only played the following actions: Kawai GF1, GF2, RM-3 Kawai RHII, RHIII Roland PHA-4, PHA-50 Yamaha NWX Apart from the Yamaha NWX, which I *really* didn't like, I would basically be happy with any of these actions. To me, they're just different, instead of 'better'. I don't really care if the actions are wood, partially wood, or plastic. I do have s light preference for the Kawai GF2 over the PHA-50, but I can't really say why. I like the 'old' RH-II in my MP7 just fine, even compared to the newer PHA-50.
Kawai Novus NV-10 | Pianoteq 7 (Kremsegg 1 & 2, Ruckers II, Karsten, KIVIR, Steinway D, K2) Intel NUC J5040, 8GB, SSD | iPad Pro 12.9 2018 | forScore
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Of course, and YMMV for pretty much every opinion that's out there on actions and sound. But I certainly don't begrudge anyone wanting to buy something new, nor do I begrudge these companies trying to come up with newer and better. In the end, I do benefit when I'm looking to buy something. So if you're satisfied with what you have and you don't suffer from GAS and you don't have immense amounts of disposable income lying around, then great. But for those who actually like how a new action feels or they buy into hype about it, well, let them have their fun. I agree, each person has his own way of determining if something is an upgrade and/or a reason to to buy new stuff. I can fully underline that a less than 1MB streched and heavily compressed pianosampleset from 1984 has been slowly and steadily bettered, up to extremely large vst libraries that capture many nuances one could only dream of in 1984. It is due to the increasing computing power. However we still use midi which hasn't been upgraded. A grand piano action remained (in essence) unchanged for the last century. The digital piano action upgrades, utilising the same 128 values (0-127) seem suspicious the least. Of course some upgrades can be considered as such, but when you count and visualise all the leading brand's action upgrades from half way the eighties till now then one realises that it will never end.....the digital upgrades will be a never ending story whereas the real grand piano action will remain unaltered. Unless the midi protocal will be changed i will be very sceptical towards all those action upgrades......different yes ! Better ? Not convinced....
Last edited by pianistje; 01/20/17 05:11 PM.
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A grand piano action remained (in essence) unchanged for the last century. The digital piano action upgrades, utilising the same 128 values (0-127) seem suspicious the least.
To me, this seems to be an odd connection to draw... The action in any hammer-weighted DP is by nature analog. It's the resolution of the sensors that the hammers impact that determines what to translate into what range of MIDI values desired. You can take any action, from the lowly Yamaha GHS, all the way to an Avant Grand, and pair it to a sensor system that recognizes x-bits of velocity resolution. And any of those actions will respond to keypress velocity and output at that resolution. Don't a number of keyboards today, including budget boards, already support "high resolution midi?" Whether it's useful is a very interesting question, but I fail to see how it has anything to do with the action mechanism. Edit: On re-read, think I realized what you're saying is that midi resolution is insufficient to capture the nuances in all these minuscule action upgrades? I see the connection you're drawing now, but I still disagree with that assessment. If you can judge the physical response of a DP action against a benchmark grand piano, you can still tell if it is different even if the DP is turned off and the grand keybed is slid out of the frame. And if the goal is to have the DP action mimic the grand action as perfectly as possible, midi response is an orthogonal concern to that.
Last edited by Gombessa; 01/20/17 05:28 PM. Reason: Clarified
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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Unless the midi protocal will be changed i will be very sceptical towards all those action upgrades......different yes ! Better ? Not convinced....
The internal engines in digitals do not use midi to connect with the build in sound engine ... AFAIK, I may be wrong though, but logically, I don't see why they would, they can program whatever they like to connect the action with the sound engine, for example, yamaha smooth release in the CLPs. MIDI is used with VSTs and such .. true. I do vaguely recall in some cases people mentioning loading midi files to play back in their digitals on some models, that some of the nuances were lost, Not sure though, just a vague bit of memory.
Selftaught since June 2014. Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various... Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos. 12x ABF recitals. My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
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Unless the midi protocal will be changed i will be very sceptical towards all those action upgrades......different yes ! Better ? Not convinced....
The internal engines in digitals do not use midi to connect with the build in sound engine ... AFAIK, I may be wrong though, but logically, I don't see why they would, they can program whatever they like to connect the action with the sound engine, for example, yamaha smooth release in the CLPs. MIDI is used with VSTs and such .. true. I do vaguely recall in some cases people mentioning loading midi files to play back in their digitals on some models, that some of the nuances were lost, Not sure though, just a vague bit of memory. Yeah sorry, i solely play with piano vst's because the sound is superiour, but my controler can only handle 128 dynamic steps whereas CEUS can, as i recall correctly, handle up to 1000 steps. I don't know what an internal digital is capable of, but i assumed it could never be more than 128.....never thought about it really because no one has more than 10 layers of samples anyway.....? I guess what i wanted to say is, that when a digital can have 100+ layers of samples for each key than the actions needs to act accordingly.......
Last edited by pianistje; 01/20/17 05:46 PM.
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I guess what i wanted to say is, that when a digital can have 100+ layers of samples for each key than the actions needs to act accordingly.......
Your 10 discrete layers are probably blended for in-between velocities. And if the VST had 128 discrete velocity layers, the engine should be able to blend them for high-resolution midi velocities too...
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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I don't know what an internal digital is capable of, but i assumed it could never be more than 128.....never thought about it really because no one has more than 10 layers of samples anyway.....? 10 layers of samples ? Ivory ACD goes up to 20 layers, Garritan CFX, 20 layers, The Hammersmith, 21 layers Spectrasonics Keyspace, 32 layers VSL Imperial, 100 layers And layers are only about tone (timbre) change. When the velocity change while keeping inside a layer, the volume change. Then we can make use of a velocity resolution. However, with my 128 steps velocity resolution, trying to hit a key many times with the same velocity brings differents values (-2/+2). I don't think I would be able to use an higher resolution.
Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/20/17 06:13 PM.
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OK, this thread has gone WAY off topic... lol
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So, how 'bout them Dolphins?
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However, with my 128 steps velocity resolution, trying to hit a key many times with the same velocity brings differents values (-2/+2). I don't think I would be able to use an higher resolution. I see this rationale used frequently when people talk about more midi resolution, but I think it's a bit of a red herring. It's not about how accurately you are able to hit a given velocity (I would challenge that nobody on this forum could even hit a 4-velocity span with 100% accuracy while playing their standard repertoire, let alone the existing 128 velocities). Rather, the main question is if it is noticeable when you hit that +/-2, and if it would be in any way noticeable if you hit +/- 2.5 instead of +/- 2. Our accuracy will always vary as we're all(?) human. But the precision of what we play should be captured to whatever level is needed for us to tell the difference. In the above example, if you only had 4 velocities to work with between ppp and fff, and you misstrike a note, you might go from ppp to mp. And you'd hear that difference for sure, right? But if you had 8 velocities, you'd go from ppp to pp, and that'd be much more nuanced (and less distracting). And if you're listening to a very quiet, legato passage, the pianist may not be hitting midi velocity 10 (out of 128) accurately every time, but if you can tell the difference between 10 and 12, but would also have been able to tell the difference if there was a 10.5 and 11.5 in the mix (256 midi values), it'd be a good argument that 128-velocity resolution isn't enough. Just my $0.02.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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I guess what i wanted to say is, that when a digital can have 100+ layers of samples for each key than the actions needs to act accordingly.......
Your 10 discrete layers are probably blended for in-between velocities. And if the VST had 128 discrete velocity layers, the engine should be able to blend them for high-resolution midi velocities too... True ! But your action must be able to execute and mimic a grand piano action as accurate possible and triggering the corresponding nuances in a way that reminds us of a true grand piano.(ppp-fff and different tonal character the more we use force) When only 2 sample layers are used (early digitals) and some clever blending programmming then most actions will do...no hidden sound treasures because of an underpar action. I played my Kurzweil micro piano from several actions and it always sounded as i expected it to sound. Limited dynamics, bright and able to cut through. On every action it was able to do a sort of soft-loud volume wise.... However a large sample librarie is depending on a very good action + adjustable velocity curves to also sound superb and triggering such library from let's say a cheap synth could make it sound even less than a cheap digital piano,but internally a good match with the cheap action. Most modern actions are capable of accurately triggering 5 sample layers with blending in between, but not all can properly handle 20 layers of samples in a way that mimics a grand piano action. I have the Hammersmith and Garritan and i read some negative things about the former and it's limited dynamic range. My Kawai is able to execute all 21 layers perfectly, but lesser actions could handle those 21 samples in an underwhelming fashion...i guess.... So that is my personal criterea for a good action and i believe that all current actions are more than adequate to handle the hardware limited sample layers+blending and modelling engines. What's left to upgrade action wise if the soundengine doesn't make some huge steps ?
Last edited by pianistje; 01/20/17 06:43 PM.
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OK, this thread has gone WAY off topic... lol
You think?
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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OK, this thread has gone WAY off topic... lol
You think? Here you go Dave, something to chew on as a Jazz person I gather that you are and carry it even further Sorry if I am I being bit of devil here with this post and also in defence of MIDI, it is still a very powerful protocol all the same when used in combination with good programming. Have a Look at what the ROLI seaboard is capable of in terms of musical articulation and expression in the world of synths via VSts, but also in producing real acoustic instruments like saxophones, string instruments etc sound very convincing indeed. A single Pitch bend and modulation is hold hat tech, the string sounds and saxes for example never sound convincing to me on conventional keyboards and a bit cheesy. The level of articulation and expression is simply not possible with traditional keyboard actions and just a single pitch bend and modulation wheel. I saw the midi output of a roli once, it does put up a much heavier load in terms of the frequency of MIDI messages it sends compared to a conventional keyboards with just aftertouch. You can also use the ROLI without midi and VSTs IIRC and load sounds into it mind. Of course, there is a market for conventional keyboards, keyboardist are familiar with piano like keys and like playing them, however, If I had to pick one, apart from wanting a decent piano action, for just that, piano. Most other things/sounds I'd pick the ROLI any day having had a couple of goes on it. Similar price to the RD 2000. Sorry for the OT, and no doubt the RD 2000 is great bit of kit all the same for other sounds too, but if I wanted a new toy to play with as an extra outside of piano sounds, it would be the ROLI . plenty vids on youtube, been out a few years now.
Selftaught since June 2014. Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various... Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos. 12x ABF recitals. My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
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OK, this thread has gone WAY off topic... lol
You think? LOL, and as you can see, some people don't take the hint!
Last edited by polo1; 01/20/17 07:23 PM.
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My Kawai is able to execute all 21 layers perfectly, but lesser actions could handle those 21 samples in an underwhelming fashion...i guess....
So that is my personal criterea for a good action and i believe that all current actions are more than adequate to handle the hardware limited sample layers+blending and modelling engines.
I hear you. I just haven't seen any evidence that any modern hammer-weighted action cannot reliably generate hundreds, if not thousands of levels of velocity sensitivity. It's a physical mechanism, the key accelerates a hammer which strikes a series of velocity sensors. It's entirely continuous and analog. The precision of measurement isn't limited by the action, it's a matter of how finely the sensor can register the speed of the hammer. What's left to upgrade action wise if the soundengine doesn't make some huge steps ? I guess that depends on how good you think today's actions are. To me, the action and the tone generator are completely separate. If you had to buy one of two spinets, and they looked, sounded and cost exactly the same, but one of them magically had a full grand action built in, would you prefer that or the one with the standard spinet drop action? I really love the action in my MP11, but even if the sound engine stayed the same, I would be thrilled if it suddenly had an action even more similar to a real grand.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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...I just haven't seen any evidence that any modern hammer-weighted action cannot reliably generate hundreds, if not thousands of levels of velocity sensitivity. It's a physical mechanism, the key accelerates a hammer which strikes a series of velocity sensors... Partly true for the wooden action Kawais and the Yamaha hybrids. But all others sense key press velocity. To my knowledge no other actions measure hammer velocity or position.
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Have a Look at what the ROLI seaboard is capable of in terms of musical articulation and expression in the world of synths via VSts, but also in producing real acoustic instruments like saxophones, string instruments etc sound very convincing indeed. Oh please. Yes, let's have a thread on MonsterCable ... homeopathy ... acupuncture ... Start a new f****** thread. Isn't there an internet law regarding ... silent profiles in musical topics?
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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Partly true for the wooden action Kawais and the Yamaha hybrids. But all others sense key press velocity. To my knowledge no other actions measure hammer velocity or position. Hmm, I'm pretty sure that is incorrect. Look at Kawai's folded actions: The hammer strikes the sensor. Much closer to the effort/fulcrum than the load (weighted end) that I think would be ideal. But it's definitely the hammer hitting the sensor and not the key: Roland's folded actions: Again, the hammer and not the keystick: Yamaha's folded action has a good angle to show how this works: The only action I could easily find that had the keys striking the sensors was a Fatar (and I'm not sure if this is a current one): I'm sure there are more, but the ones we usually "care about" here like RHII/III, PHA-IV/50, GH/GH3/NWX, are all hammer-struck. And even if it was the keys that strike the sensor, the analog argument still holds I think...it wouldn't be the limiting factor for moving from 128 to more velocities.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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