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Question about notation conventions
#2604744 01/15/17 04:12 PM
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Hi folks. Several of us in Toronto are wondering:
Within the same bar, after an accidental, is the accidental implied even if the note in question is in a different octave? The question has come up in the piece Album Leaf (opus 45) by Scriabin. (Is that upper A in bar 13 played flat or natural? Horowitz plays it flat--which implies that the accidental does NOT apply if the note's in a different octave.)

Thanks!

Anne


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Re: Question about notation conventions
Anne Francis #2604745 01/15/17 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Anne Francis
Hi folks. Several of us in Toronto are wondering:
Within the same bar, after an accidental, is the accidental implied even if the note in question is in a different octave?

The accidental applies only to the exact note, not to those in other octaves.


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Re: Question about notation conventions
bennevis #2604749 01/15/17 04:40 PM
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I don't think it's so clear, in terms of it being a general matter. (I'm not questioning it about this specific example.)

Except in more contemporary music -- i.e. like from ~1950 or after), where pretty clearly it is as you said -- I think most of the time the note in the other octave is given a specific sign to indicate what it is -- i.e. sharp, flat, or natural, even if it's felt to be redundant.

Re: Question about notation conventions
Anne Francis #2604753 01/15/17 04:57 PM
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bennevis +1. That it really is a general matter can be easily seen from any passage in octaves. In this album leaf, the a natural serves as a chromatic approach to the b flat, while the high a flat is a suspended 6th in the dominant C7 before f minor. Anyway, just look at octaves with accidentals.

Re: Question about notation conventions
Anne Francis #2604954 01/16/17 11:08 AM
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You should not only see the accidental stated on the note in the new octave, but you should see a courtesy accidental on the note in the new octave if it doesn't change.


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Re: Question about notation conventions
SonatainfSharp #2604959 01/16/17 11:44 AM
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So.... different opinions; opposite opinions.

In order to know which thing is more true, we'd have to do a thorough survey of thousands of scores, which we're not going to do. But maybe somebody wants to look at a few.

I think most (except for scores of more modern music) would show it as SonatainfSharp and I said, but I'm not sure.

Re: Question about notation conventions
Anne Francis #2604970 01/16/17 12:23 PM
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Opposite views? What I read is, "No, the same note in the other octave does not participate in the accidental. And, it is felt by more considerate notators to be well to state as much, with a courtesy accidental."

See, OP, it's just as Horowitz showed you.

Personally, I like the older practice of canceling accidentals, then adding the new, when a bar modulates to a new key. From a time when more people played, though maybe not at so advanced a level that a little extra clarity was not appreciated by some, and understood by all.


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Re: Question about notation conventions
Jeff Clef #2604984 01/16/17 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Clef
Opposite views?.....

Yes -- regarding whether it's 100% clear if there's no "courtesy" indication.

My posts and (I think) that of 'SonatainfSharp' indicate that there should be a 'courtesy' indication of what it is, even if it's felt to be redundant, and if there isn't, then it's not fully clear unless the specific context implies it incontrovertibly, because there's no absolute general understanding about what the note would be. (For sure it's what I'm saying.)

Re: Question about notation conventions
Anne Francis #2606196 01/19/17 04:35 PM
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Thank you all very much for your comments. I suspected as much, but yes, it would be nice to have a "courtesy" accidental so we are sure. It was a friend of mine who was sure it should be a natural, since it would be more typical for Scriabin.... but I'm sure she will accept your opinions! Thanks again.


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Re: Question about notation conventions
Anne Francis #2606199 01/19/17 04:41 PM
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Keep in mind that there has been known to be mistakes in printed scores, or even manuscripts!


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