Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500?

Not really sure why people say that the Casio action is so light. For me it was the heaviest action among the pianos I tried.

From lightest to heaviest, I would say:

• Roland LX-7/17, HP605/603
• Yamaha CLP-575/585
• Kawai CA67/97, CS8/11
• Casio GP-300/400/500

I mentioned this to the people in the store and they agreed with me, but other people keeps saying it is a light action.

When trying a lot of acoustic grand pianos in Denmark, I would say Casio was on par, or slightly lighter, than the heaviest actions I tried.

This discussion came up a few times. I also thought that the Casio action was not really light in the realm of digitals I tried to date, but not really heavy either, just quite different to the Kawai and rolands to make a direct comparison not so straightforward, I really enjoyed playing on it ( Vienna was my favourite sound, then hamburg, then the Bechstein.

O' course I got little experience and never tried a petrof acoustic or many of the acoustics for reference, so bear that in mind what I am about to say.

The only digital action I tried to date I felt that started to feel in the realm of heavy(ish) to play is the CA17/VPC1, all others I found okay and feel lighter than that overall.

My feeling is that why some say it is one or the other is somewhat related to static touch weight, the effort it takes to get the keys going from rest, versus the dynamic touch weight when the keys are in motion.

In that sense to me the Casio didn't feel heavy to play when keys are in motion, I find the same on the yamahas, the CLP 585 is quite easy to the touch to me, but some say has a very high static touch weight, IIRC, some even measured it it be as high as 80 grams in some of the bass notes and returned their models because of it, you would unlikely find that extreme on acoustics, but yet dynamically, to me, it felt quite effortless to play.

In default stock, the Casio to me, when I dropped my arms into the keys, it was relatively quite easy to get a ringing forte out of it, quite easy on some rapid notes, and trills and so on, overall it felt just quite effortless to play.

The kawai doing the same thing, it felt like somehow doing the same exercise, dropping the arms down it was easier to get the illusion of reaching a ceiling somehow where the forte could not be heard or reached in the same way. I guess depending on how they map the velocity layers too in default stock in relation to the touch curve, it all may play on ones mind trying these things out.

There was a very interesting video the other week I came across I am sure many of you will enjoy watching, it touches on some of these things from a pro pianist perspective, discussing the various aspects of keyboard touch, static and dynamic touch, and so on, and what they deem is a sensible range. Twice in the video, at some point early on, and later they come back to this topic IIRC.

To me at least, from my limited experience testing out in the store and primitive skills and all that, I find a lot of what is said there rings a bell with a me, and why it is that some actions just feel easier to play than others, and what some pianist like and others not.

Another area is upweight, to me various digitals often feel far higher than on acoustics I tried. My Casio feels like that, the AP 450.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKJa14YqNoM

I suppose pianos come in all sorts of flavours and size and touches. The biggest grand I tried so far is no bigger than about 6 ft ( since I would never buy anything bigger than that anyway for my home in future, with the room sizes I have, it was an old lovely restored steinway model O. I never felt a digital that felt as light, or better put, effortless to play as that. For me on initial try out it was almost too responsive, but man, that tone was to die for, it took a little getting use to though

Now what we really should do is send someone like Morodiene to a shop and try all these out for fun for us and give her views.

Enjoy the video.

Action "heaviness" is very subjective and depends on factors other than actual key weight.

For example, if you have an acoustic piano with old and hardened hammers, the piano will sound very brilliant even when played softly, at p. Now if you heavily needle the hammers and make them as soft as possible, it will sound much more mellow at p. And to get the same brilliance out of it, you have to play it much louder (=harder). This can give the impression that the action is now heavier even though the actual weight of the keys and hammers has of course not changed.

I remember that you wrote that you had trouble getting the Casio loud enough with your headphones. So maybe unconsciously you played it harder (to get it louder) which made it feel as if the action is heavier.

Well, or not. It really is subjective.

You can easily test it yourself: When your CA97 arrives, set it to SK-EX, then select Brillant from the virtual technician smart mode and play for a few minutes. Then switch to Soft and play again. The action will feel very different even though it hasn't changed at all, of course.

I agree with what you are saying, although, just because you can play fff with light doesn't necessarily mean that the key action is light (like JoBert seems to agree with).

I do admit that the sound level could be a factor, but I also want to point out that I played it without headphones with quite some volumes (even at max at shorter periods just because I wanted to try out the acoustic vibrations), and even then it was the hardest to play for me. Just pressing a single key down also felt quite heavy, especially compared to the Roland pianos.

But sure, it's subjective indeed, but that's also why I wrote. I think it's important to express different opinions so people don't think that everyone is agreeing that the key action is very light.

Bottom line with that is: Read and do your research if you want to, but in the end, try out the pianos yourself. An absolute must!

The CS11 cabinet is based largely on the K-2 upright piano cabinet.

The same cabinet was used for the CS-X1 collaboration prototype exhibited at Musikmesse last year. I believe the final piece of Schumann performed in the demonstration (linked below) could be considered reasonably 'athletic', however the pianist, Ayano Entani, does not appear to smash her knuckles on the music rest while playing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h8fuAygtSE#t=17m20s

Kind regards,
James
x

music stand folded up. When out it is closer to the hands than any piano than I have ever tried

Congratulations with the CS11.

I would have considered the Casio GP500 alongside the Roland LX-17 when checking out piano's a few month's ago. Even though I consider Casio and off-brand (as in, not a prominent instrument manufacturer), I could have gotten past that if the piano was really good.

It actually may be really good, I don't know.

Maybe this sounds biased or even childish, but I scrapped it off the list because of the gold/brass plate on the right hand side, that says "Developed in collaboration with C. Bechstein." (My Hammond organ also had such a plate, but it was *much* smaller and darker than the one on the Casio, and it only said "HAMMOND".)

I think it looks so exceedingly tacky and ugly that it mars an instrument that could be a great piano. They shoulld have gone with small white, or golden lettering, in the lower left or right corner of the music rest, saying "Action designed by C. Bechstein" or something like that.

Are we opening this can of worms again?

Lol!

Since I criticized a little the Kawai -- but you should try it to see if the layout is for you! I also have a very
strong opinion on the build quality of the Casio:

The main woodwork of the Casio is the thinnest plywood, and barely better than thick cardboard.
The Kawai actually feels like a real instrument made out of wood, made to last a generation! I would have far more
confidence of it lasting long enough to pass on to my children.

All digital instruments are terrible compromises (I live in a flat and don't have a choice),
the Kawai and Casio groups made very different choices that can not be directly compared. You have to try both
to make your own choice.

I am very excited about the experimental Kawai instrument too -- I would certainly swap up if a new sound engine were available that gave such results! Do you have any idea when such technology could be available?

"Or something like that"

Use "Designed in cooperation with C. Bechstein" for all I care, on the music desk, but not on a huge brass/gold plate.

Sadly I don't have a CS11 (must be nice) or a CS-X1 (those in-body LEDs are something else!), but I do get to play now and then on a Yamaha U3 upright, and it seems to have the same kind of configuration. When the fallboard is lifted and music rest is unfolded, the end of the music rest hangs over the exposed keys by almost an inch, and sits ~4 inches above the black keytops.

I'm not super "athletic" in my playing but even if I do my best Lang Lang impression, I don't hit the music rest...are the dimensions of the CS11 much different?

Just thought I would give everyone an update now that the mad Christmas period is over.

I have been practicing on the piano and the mrs has been using it to get back up to speed again. Overall we are loving it once we became accustom to the sound signature. It was a bit muffled starting out but came alive once you really start playing it.

Couple of issues that didn't win me over though:

3rd last key has that same scratching plasticy noise I heard in the store unit. I think it might be the wood grain of the keys rubbing on each other as they aren't really sanded that smooth and have rough bits.

The polishing job on the cabinet leaves a bit to be desired in some small areas, there is significant marring / swirl marks in the middle which look hideous under the light. Not sure what passes as a good polishing job these days on acoustics... Don't really want to try polishing them out (used to do car detailing) as I don't know what the finish is.

Key spacing is good but no perfect, keys can rub on each other.

Giving it some time to bed in, settle and get used to it. One thing you have to watch out for is that the Kawai logo is not put under the clear coat (if there is one) quite easy to snag it when wiping down the cabinet.

Polishing polyester, if it is polyester, is a mistake. You'll just leave swirl marks no matter what materials you use. Best advice is to wipe down finger marks and stuff with a chamois or ultra micro fibre cloth and water. Dusting can be a problem too, you need the gentlest of touches. Best to blow it around. I've learned to love the dust on mine.

Polishing polyester is not a problem with the right tools - excentric polisher, the right pads, the right compounds, lower speeds, and the right touch - not an easy thing though. Friend of mine did nothing but for 6 months, got good after 3 ^^

Its not from me wiping it down, it was like that when they took the wrapping off, its marring marks from the polishing I think, they haven't done enough work on it to finish it off. I know a lot about polishing and preventing scratches from car detailing in the past and I have just been wiping it down lightly with a nice microfibre to lift the dust off

The flat surfaces are fine but for some reason the book stand and the curve where it flows down into the lid are pretty bad, think they are plastic as well which might explain it.

I have very fine grade Menzerna polishes that would probably do the job but don't really want to touch it since its new.

It's probably because of the tools used - the large surfaces they use a hand held polisher standing over the surface - the small pieces they used a standing polishing machine that they hold the piece up to can't really see your work then only when standing to it's side and its also more awkward to work with in general

and then you proceed to quote a lengthy list of necessary tools, material, etc. and months of experience - all of which you need to do it right. Sorry, but to me that does sound like a problem for anyone but a real expert.
Under that standard, very few things in the world are a real "problem", because you can always find an expert who is able to solve it...

Ha ha, yes I agree, there's polishing and there's polishing. Casual at home polishing with a duster and some stuff in a can from the local supermarket, or done by the visiting cleaner is the sort of polishing that's a no-no

Yes my sarcasm sometimes gets the best of me without me realising ;P

It can be done by someone new at the skill to a good finish - a friend of mine had never used a polishing tool in his life, and when put to work on doing boathulls recently they had him start with smaller surfaces - this he got the hang of rather quickly to a trouble free finish. Larger surface areas he progressed to as time went on. Most of the skill involved was being pointed to the right polishing agents for the right surfaces and know the right speeds for the right pads - all of which is information that is in their manuals


But yes, it requires some investment of time and money, though the investment can earn itself back rather quickly..