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#2603039 - 01/10/17 09:41 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
JohnSprung Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 3857
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By Almaviva
[I repeat the question - what is the largest size grand piano that would fit in this room AND STILL SOUND DECENT?


Seriously, I'd think 7'-6" would be about the biggest you could reasonably go, with the room and piano both treated for the purpose. Certainly there's no reason to go smaller than 6'.

You'll have to do some acoustic treatment in the room and voice the piano for it no matter what.
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Knabe Grand # 10927
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#2603048 - 01/10/17 10:22 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 22093
Loc: New York City
Because of the size of the room and especially since it is completely enclosed except for a door, I think even the smallest piano(grand or vertical)will have serious problems.

Some people have mentioned university practice rooms to justify pianos in very small rooms, but they almost universally seem to say this acoustic arrangement is poor. There is a limit to how slowly a key can be depressed before it will not produce any sound, so I am not convinced by those who say that with correct technique one can always play softly enough on a well regulated piano.

In my first post in this thread, I said my thoughts were not based on actual experience so that I could be wrong. So I asked if anyone actually has had a positive experience with a grand in a completely enclosed room around 11x11. I don't think there have been any examples so far. And why did Dell Fandrich design a piano specifically for home use if he didn't think many pianos were too loud for their space?

BTW I have a 7' Mason BB in a 12x18x8 living room that opens into a 7x18 kitchen on one end and a long hallway/foyer at the other end. Both openings are around 7' wide. I play with the lid down and lid hinge folded back.


Edited by pianoloverus (01/10/17 10:35 PM)

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#2603054 - 01/10/17 10:44 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Cassia Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/15
Posts: 332
Loc: Portland, OR
The alcove my piano is in is a similar size (I think it's 10x12), but it only has three walls and opens into a larger room, so it's not as confined of a space. I always felt like the M&H easily overpowered the space (though it was also very difficult to play softer than mf on that piano), but the C2X seems ideally suited for the space. I could get something larger in that alcove, but I don't know that I would want to. I think certainly I would keep it under 7'.
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1927 Mason & Hamlin A -> 2015 Yamaha C2X

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#2603056 - 01/10/17 10:59 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Cassia]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 22093
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By Cassia
The alcove my piano is in is a similar size (I think it's 10x12), but it only has three walls and opens into a larger room, so it's not as confined of a space.
The effective space your piano is in is the 10x12 room plus the size of the larger room. More than twice the size of the room the OP is considering.

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#2603062 - 01/10/17 11:37 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
outo Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 2826
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By Almaviva
Originally Posted By BDB
Originally Posted By Almaviva
Originally Posted By BDB
Probably 9 feet, fitted in diagonally.


Yes, but wouldn't a concert grand blow the windows out of a room that small?

Please remember that an 18' x 14' living room is practically on the other side of the doorway of this 11' x 11" music room.


Were you planning on packing it with explosives?


You know very well that I was concerned that a grand piano would be too loud for this small room, especially a 9' concert grand.

I repeat the question - what is the largest size grand piano that would fit in this room AND STILL SOUND DECENT? (Please remember that I will have to fit in this room, so allow 3' in length for me.)


There are just too many variables for anyone to give you a definite answer. I was very concerned about this when buying a grand. There was no way to know beforehand and I needed to make the decision between 170cm and 150cm. It helped the decision that smaller was a lot let expensive. It turned out good, the piano fits well in the room and is very pleasant to play. But I had no way of knowing beforehand... And I still don't know whether the larger one would have been good as well.

Btw. My Yamaha U1 is much less pleasant in sound. It is in a smaller room, but with a lot of acoustic treatment and it sounds awful. The grand has a much more pleasant basic tone. When I tried to treat the upright to make it less loud it sounded stuffy. But when I cover the grand it just sounds a little less loud but still sings...


Edited by outo (01/10/17 11:45 PM)

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#2603068 - 01/10/17 11:57 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: outo]
Cassia Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/15
Posts: 332
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By outo


There are just too many variables for anyone to give you a definite answer.


This is a good point. Are you working with a dealer who would let you try out a piano in your space before you buy? That may be the way to go.
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1927 Mason & Hamlin A -> 2015 Yamaha C2X

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#2603075 - 01/11/17 12:55 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
huaidongxi Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 318
your experience with a vintage M&H A is very different from how easily our 1919 BB plays softly. perhaps the divergence came from how they were restored.

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#2603078 - 01/11/17 01:04 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: huaidongxi]
Cassia Online   blank
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/15
Posts: 332
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By huaidongxi
your experience with a vintage M&H A is very different from how easily our 1919 BB plays softly. perhaps the divergence came from how they were restored.


Mine was mostly original. The action was very worn, hence the difficulties with control.
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1927 Mason & Hamlin A -> 2015 Yamaha C2X

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#2603094 - 01/11/17 02:27 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
BDB Online   content
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Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 24657
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By Almaviva
Originally Posted By BDB
Originally Posted By Almaviva
Originally Posted By BDB
Probably 9 feet, fitted in diagonally.


Yes, but wouldn't a concert grand blow the windows out of a room that small?

Please remember that an 18' x 14' living room is practically on the other side of the doorway of this 11' x 11" music room.


Were you planning on packing it with explosives?


You know very well that I was concerned that a grand piano would be too loud for this small room, especially a 9' concert grand.

I repeat the question - what is the largest size grand piano that would fit in this room AND STILL SOUND DECENT? (Please remember that I will have to fit in this room, so allow 3' in length for me.)


A good 9 foot piano will sound decent in any room it will fit in. The reason nobody asks the logical opposite question is because just about everyone recognizes that a spinet will not sound as decent as a 9 foot grand no matter how small the room is, as long as the pianos fit in.

I can play my pianos so they are uncomfortably loud in the room that they are in. The important thing is that I do not have to. That would be less likely to be true if they were smaller.
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#2603124 - 01/11/17 03:51 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
PhilipInChina Offline
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Registered: 10/19/13
Posts: 2777
Loc: Bulgaria
Is the room purely a piano room? If it is going to be used for any other purpose one should consider the appearance of the piano in proportion to the room.
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#2603172 - 01/11/17 08:09 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Rich D. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 1386
Loc: Rehoboth Beach De. USA
FWIW at the Summerkeys adult music camp that I go to in Maine, one of the pianos I get time to practice on is a 7 foot Yamaha grand that sits in a room approximately the size you are asking about. Maybe smaller. No special window, floor or wall treatments to lesson the sound. The piano's tone does not overwhelm the room (unless banged!) and is one of the most sought after pianos to play on.

Rich
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Retired at the beach (well maybe not completely)

Anton Rubinstein said about the piano: "You think it is one instrument? It is a hundred instruments!"

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#2603352 - 01/11/17 04:38 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: PhilipInChina]
Almaviva Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1018
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Originally Posted By PhilipInChina
Is the room purely a piano room? If it is going to be used for any other purpose one should consider the appearance of the piano in proportion to the room.


It would be used strictly for playing the piano. A chair or two would be the only additional furniture that I plan to put in it.

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#2603356 - 01/11/17 04:42 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Goss]
Almaviva Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1018
Loc: Richmond, Virginia
Originally Posted By Goss
Might it be possible to break out the wall of this small room, or even have a wide set of sliding or French doors?


Good suggestions. I'm toying with those ideas, but I will have to consult my homeowner's association and consider the cost before such an undertaking.


Edited by Almaviva (01/11/17 04:43 PM)

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#2603375 - 01/11/17 05:52 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Registered: 10/11/12
Posts: 2104
Loc: 🎹
A few years ago, a good friend of mine was suffering from gout. He asked me to drive him to the pharmacy so he could get a cane. While he was rummaging through the selection, he held up two and asked me: "which one makes me look sportier?"

Naturally, he was joking, but this thread's overarching question strikes me the same way. Kinda like how many clowns can climb out of a VW, or how many frat boys can get into a phone booth? A grand piano is to a square peg as an 11x11 room is to a round hole. Not literally, of course, but...

The question's premise seems flawed somehow: how large a piano can I reasonably get into a room that's too small to comfortably house a grand piano? (I'm defining "still sound decent" as "reasonable").

Anyway, I'll post a more serious/practical response below.
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#2603384 - 01/11/17 06:20 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Retsacnal Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Registered: 10/11/12
Posts: 2104
Loc: 🎹
Ok, here's my practical answer...

Originally Posted By Almaviva
Originally Posted By Goss
Might it be possible to break out the wall of this small room, or even have a wide set of sliding or French doors?


Good suggestions. I'm toying with those ideas, but I will have to consult my homeowner's association and consider the cost before such an undertaking.

First, I want to say that this is exactly what I was thinking last night when I first read this thread. The description of the floor plan wasn't detailed enough to know for sure, but I was sort of hoping that the bedroom in question and the living area were perhaps separated by a wall that could be removed to open it all up. Even if the wall is load-bearing, perhaps a couple of columns could take its place. Another suggestion could be to perhaps house the piano in the larger space, and make the 11x11 room an intimate sort of sitting area (small sofa and a couple of stuffed chairs, maybe a TV if you want).

Anyway, here's why:

Like I said above, I read this last night and the dimensions intrigued me. We deliberately sought out a smaller piano with the intention of downsizing at some point in time. My 5'2" piano sits in a corner, not quite at a 45 degree angle, but close. More importantly, it's about as close to the two walls as is reasonable, leaving a small space to get around it, clean/vacuum, run a power cord, etc.

I measured 11' from each of the walls out to where an opposite corner would be. Gotta be honest: even at 5'2" it looked uncomfortably full, especially considering a couple chairs and an imaginary in-swinging door.

Next, I went and measured my little "parlor," which sits off the foyer opposite the living room. As I suspected, it was pretty darn close to your dimensions: 10.5 x 11.5! So I went back and measured how far diagonally from the corner the keys reached: 6.5 feet. My bench adds about 2 feet (perhaps your 3 feet includes some room to move, or you have really long arms), so it'd reach 8.5 feet out.

I'm gonna be honest: there's no way I'd even put my 5'2" piano into that space. Especially not with a couple of chairs and the doors (which swing in). The room is set up like I describe above: antique sofa, traditional wingback chair, and another chair (no TV, of course). Ironically, the people we bought the house from had a spinet in there. When we first viewed the house, I played it a bit--it was pretty harsh in that small space (but the floors are hardwood and there was little else to soften it.

Before I did the measuring, I was thinking like some of the others above, that perhaps a seven footer would be ok to squeeze in.

I get it though: you're trying to make the most of the limited space you're gonna have. I was sort of planning for that myself for the future. Anyway, sometimes pianos are bigger than you think they are. As a matter of fact, initially I was planning to put the piano in our living room, which is easily three times the size of the parlor. We decided it would take up too much space, and put it into the family room (which has worked out well).

Anyway, I hope you can work out some sort of satisfactory solution.







_________________________
I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein

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#2603403 - 01/11/17 07:13 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
JohnSprung Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 3857
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By Almaviva
Originally Posted By Goss
Might it be possible to break out the wall of this small room, or even have a wide set of sliding or French doors?


Good suggestions. I'm toying with those ideas, but I will have to consult my homeowner's association and consider the cost before such an undertaking.


This being on the ground floor of a condo, it's very likely that you'll have a bearing wall and an expensive job that way. Do let us know what you find out from the association. Ask if anyone else has made structural changes, they may be able to provide useful info and recommend a structural engineer.
_________________________
-- J.S.



Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#2603513 - 01/12/17 04:22 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Goss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/16
Posts: 1151
Loc: the Netherlands
Such alterations are not simple, but need not be overly expensive; friends of ours did something like this in their livingroom/diningroom, and the construction itself was done inside of a day, with one visit from a construction engineer for 45 minutes to determine the steel beam needed etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ku_DxFfh-g so alright, it is a salesman speaking, but he's not saying anything I have not heard before in regards to grand size and room size ^^
Some nice options out there!
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Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee

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#2603529 - 01/12/17 06:27 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Goss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/16
Posts: 1151
Loc: the Netherlands
I should add - they cut the cost significantly doing the preparations and finishing themselves
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#2603653 - 01/12/17 01:01 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Chrome Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 6
I used this as a guide for determing room dimension to piano size.

http://www.pianobuyer.com/PDFarchive/PB_PianoRoom.pdf


Edited by Chrome (01/12/17 01:01 PM)

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#2603665 - 01/12/17 01:39 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Chrome]
dogperson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/15
Posts: 1839
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By Chrome
I used this as a guide for determing room dimension to piano size.

http://www.pianobuyer.com/PDFarchive/PB_PianoRoom.pdf


Goodness--I don't remember seeing this. Thanks so much for posting!

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#2603743 - 01/12/17 04:56 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: dogperson]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 22093
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By dogperson
Originally Posted By Chrome
I used this as a guide for determing room dimension to piano size.

http://www.pianobuyer.com/PDFarchive/PB_PianoRoom.pdf


Goodness--I don't remember seeing this. Thanks so much for posting!
I am not positive, but I believe that this article is no longer included in the PB and is now considered suspect.

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#2603747 - 01/12/17 05:06 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Radio.Octave Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 565
My 7' grand is in a room not much bigger than yours, and it sounds pretty good. The key thing is, there is an archway that opens in the living room that probably 15x20-something. Without that large opening into the other room, it might be too much piano.

I've put several bookcases and a wall hanging in the room, along with a large area rug under the piano. All these things have tamed the room quite a bit. If all else fails, you can close the lid halfway, or all the way, but I've found that doing this throws off the overall balance of sound (treble gets quiet while the bass gets boomy and muddy).

In general, I would buy the largest piano that you can afford (although a full concert grand would be overkill for that room, haha). The longer ones just sound better.
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#2603914 - 01/13/17 04:02 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
PhilipInChina Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/19/13
Posts: 2777
Loc: Bulgaria
I saw a reference to a rug under an upright in that article. How much difference would that make? I didn't think an upright transmitted much sound in that direction.
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#2603933 - 01/13/17 06:07 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Goss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/16
Posts: 1151
Loc: the Netherlands
The soundboard is part of the piano - the entire piano resonates, so if some resonances or any in case of neighbours is an issue, a rug helps ^^
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#2603959 - 01/13/17 07:53 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
PhilipInChina Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/19/13
Posts: 2777
Loc: Bulgaria
Delighted to say I have no neighbours.
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#2603987 - 01/13/17 09:08 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Goss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/16
Posts: 1151
Loc: the Netherlands
Nice Philip - sometimes I wish I could say the same ^^

It isn't just for troublesome neighbours though - also for troublesome resonances.. If you've ever gotten a new piano and anything in its sound was too harsh or boomy or resonant or whatnot, I would say try another spot for the piano, and check the room treatment like rugs and such before going for something like voicing it for the space.


Edited by Goss (01/13/17 09:09 AM)
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#2604258 - 01/14/17 02:34 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Ailiot Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/11/17
Posts: 2
I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but why do you want to fit so much piano into one room? I'm not asking from a place of condescension, so much as curiosity (and possibly ignorance). It might be wise, though, to ask yourself what purpose having a 9 or even 7-footer would truly serve in the context of your home.

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#2604333 - 01/14/17 11:34 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Ailiot]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 22093
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By Ailiot
I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but why do you want to fit so much piano into one room? I'm not asking from a place of condescension, so much as curiosity (and possibly ignorance). It might be wise, though, to ask yourself what purpose having a 9 or even 7-footer would truly serve in the context of your home.
Everything else being equal, longer pianos are generally superior to shorter ones.

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#2604340 - 01/14/17 11:55 AM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Goss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/16
Posts: 1151
Loc: the Netherlands
it is exactly that bit - everything else being equal - that is at issue wink
https://youtu.be/I3Xw7soZwLM?t=45
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Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee

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#2604345 - 01/14/17 12:25 PM Re: Maximum size of grand piano to be used in 11 x 11 room [Re: Almaviva]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4755
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but why do you want to fit so much piano into one room? I'm not asking from a place of condescension, so much as curiosity (and possibly ignorance). It might be wise, though, to ask yourself what purpose having a 9 or even 7-footer would truly serve in the context of your home...?

Out of the mouths of two-post newcomers. But, the question is an excellent one. I would personally think that, in this size room, a better-quality upright would be better. If for nothing else, with any size grand, you would be constantly holding back on the touch, trying to come out of your practice session without blood dripping from your ears--- and even then, it might not work.

The registers of the piano depend on the softness, or firmness, of the touch the player uses. Within a room so drastically undersized, your touch would be educated with a great big hole in your sense of range and timbre.

Of course, you could wear earplugs...
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