Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
107 registered members (Almaviva, BethRH, anotherscott, 29 invisible), 1,762 guests, and 0 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1351312 - 01/16/10 06:49 PM Tuning Pin Torque  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Emmery  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Is there a standard for tuning pin tightness that most techs would agree upon. I had a discussion with two different techs and they both seem to have different views of whats too tight/too loose and the measuring process itself.

I regard anything over 180/200 inch pounds as too tight (sometimes evident on newly driven pins or improperly sized pins). 140/180 as tight but acceptable if the pin block is new or very solid good condition. 95-140 as normal, 60-70 as marginal and under 60 inch pounds indicating need for sizing up on pins or other remedies. Do any of you follow roughly the same scale, method of measuring?

When measuring, do you take the reading clockwise or counter clockwise? The two techs disagreed on this also. The one tech released all tension and took the reading with the first sign of pin movement. Obviously measuring with string tension in either direction would skew the measurements also. I'm figuring there is a standard that most techs could agree on.

Last edited by Emmery; 01/16/10 06:50 PM.

Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#1351327 - 01/16/10 07:19 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Marty Flinn  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,604
Force necessary to break loose counter clockwise (tension on).


Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.
#1351359 - 01/16/10 08:10 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Marty Flinn]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Emmery  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted by Marty Flinn
Force necessary to break loose counter clockwise (tension on).


I use this method myself but I often wonder about those pins that are creepy in their feel, meaning that they are tough to break free yet once they get moving they seem excessively loose until you stop. Almost like it is a resin or stickiness rather than interference fit/tightness holding them. I see this in some older Samicks and a few other brands now and then. Its mostly a nuisance when the pin keeps slipping from the spot it needs to be and feels tight everywhere else. Some pianos have a more consistent torque to them where the force needed to keep moving the pin is very close to the higher initial force needed to break it free.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
#1351366 - 01/16/10 08:29 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Hey Emmery,

With the force of the string trying to un-wind the pin, use the torque wrench in the same direction for an accurate reading. A 60inch pounds is the minimum required to keep the instrument in tune from season to season but, in my opinion, on some instruments in particular, this is too low. I like them in the 90-125 range.

Early Samick would be the delignit block I think. I have experienced the symptoms that you mentioned even with some of the early 80’s YC instruments that I have in my churches. I am not a favourite of the multi laminate blocks, I prefer the old 3 ply maple. For the multi layer, maybe high speed glazing from being drilled too fast?


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2603292 - 01/11/17 01:59 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 711
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mark Davis  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 711
Ok, I am borrowing a little bit, and slightly adapted from Emmerys original post, and trust that he would be ok with it and that PW will be ok with it, as it is all done in good faith and in context of the original topic. I do hope that someone/some folks with real understanding and experience will answer the following questions.

When measuring tuning pin torque, do you take the reading clockwise or counter clockwise? Measuring with string tension in either direction would skew the measurements also, so what is the correct way of measuring tuning pin torque?

Also, what should/can the torque be on a 100 year old piano for it to be considered in the acceptable torque range?

Last edited by Mark Davis; 01/11/17 03:07 PM. Reason: added the words "tuning pin torque"

Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
#2603359 - 01/11/17 04:47 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,722
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,722
Tennessee
I measure how much force is required to continually move the pin towards the flattening. This is the resistance the string sees, so I consider it to be the operative quantity I am looking for. Pins tighter than 150 in/lbs are uselessly tight, imho. I am way comfortable between 100 and 125 in/lbs. Under 80 and I specifically mention them to the customer.
Regards,

#2603510 - 01/12/17 04:06 AM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 711
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mark Davis  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 711
Thank you very much for your response Ed. I much appreciate it.

If I may ask one last question please, The torque you are speaking of is this also applicable for a 100 year old piano with original pins and strings?

Thank you.



Last edited by Mark Davis; 01/12/17 04:07 AM.

Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician
#2603558 - 01/12/17 08:57 AM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Mark Davis]  
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,722
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,722
Tennessee
[quote=Mark Davis
If I may ask one last question please, The torque you are speaking of is this also applicable for a 100 year old piano with original pins and strings?
[/quote]

Greetings,
"Applicable" or "expected" ? I am not sure what is applicable, but different standards are sensible when comparing old pianos with new ones. Many pianos are out there pleasing their owners with far less torque than I would allow out of my shop, so there is latitude inre what is practical.

I have tuned old pianos that were quite loose, around 50 in/lbs. They would stay put, but took a lot of extra time getting the top-string tensions to a very narrow target. With too much looseness, I find it more difficult to control the pin- flex I use when I tune, and have to take extra care yanking things around!
Regards,

#2603565 - 01/12/17 09:10 AM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Ed Foote]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,604
Bob Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Bob  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,604
Florida
Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Pins tighter than 150 in/lbs are uselessly tight, imho. I am way comfortable between 100 and 125 in/lbs. Under 80 and I specifically mention them to the customer.
Regards,


Can piano makers take note? It shouldn't take a dozen tunings to loosen up the pins to 150 inch pounds.

#2603673 - 01/12/17 01:49 PM Re: Tuning Pin Torque [Re: Emmery]  
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 711
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member
Mark Davis  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 711
Thank you Ed. I should have said expected, not applicable crazy

Thank you very much for explaining!

Regards,


Mark Davis
Piano Tuner/Technician

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
After the bass string breaks
by Keith Roberts. 11/17/17 12:43 PM
New Upright Piano from Hurstwood Farm Pianos
by Mark Polishook. 11/17/17 11:17 AM
In need of advice / Kawai ES8 & CN37
by wolflone249. 11/17/17 10:53 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,808
Posts2,672,535
Members89,150
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0