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#2595743 - 12/18/16 06:12 AM Where next in jazz piano/improv?  
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GoldmanT Offline
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I've messed around with jazz feel for a while, but never sat down and followed a tune. I printed off an Autumn Leaves lead sheet and after a few hours came up with this: Autumn Leaves improv.mp3

I only know a few inversions for a couple of the chords, the rest is picking off other notes in the scales by ear, some of which work, some of which are a bit 'out' but I kind of like, and others that don't work at all.

How would you suggest I progress from here? Learn more tunes, learn chord inversions, analyse this recording to work out what I did (because a lot of it I couldn't explain harmonically if I tried)?

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#2595754 - 12/18/16 07:46 AM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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I'd have to download it to hear it. Maybe it is because of some other reason, but can you check it is prepared to be just played? It gives that option, but then a message appears that there is a failure and I'd have to download it.

#2595766 - 12/18/16 08:52 AM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: Albunea]  
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Originally Posted by Albunea
I'd have to download it to hear it. Maybe it is because of some other reason, but can you check it is prepared to be just played? It gives that option, but then a message appears that there is a failure and I'd have to download it.


It works on a few other Windows computers so maybe it's a browser setting or a Mac-related problem if that's what you have?

#2595769 - 12/18/16 09:18 AM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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I have a mac.

#2595806 - 12/18/16 12:33 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Goldman: I think a first question is what style of music are you seeking to play? What you've done is nice, but I'd call it cocktail style piano. Jazz is fundamentally a rhythmic music centered on swing.

You've got lots of good harmonic ideas already. If you want to play mainstream jazz, you need to turn on a metronome, or use one of the common backing program, and start to work on swinging your eight notes. If you want to continue in the style of this piece, however, you're on the right track, and all of your thoughts would be good.


#2595830 - 12/18/16 02:19 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Yeah I think the cocktailness of it was because it was still new and I couldn't think quick enough to keep a beat going. It's more the harmonic stuff I was looking for. The backing track suggestion is a really good one, hadn't thought of that - I found some drum and bass tracks on youtube that are simple chords progressions, or even just based on a single chord which would be great for exploring what can be done over each type of chord.

#2595867 - 12/18/16 04:17 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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If you've got a smartphone or Ipad and a speaker you can plug them into, get IRealPro. It's an app that costs just a few bucks. It about 13 jazz standards with bass, piano and drum backing track. You silence the piano and bingo, you've got a bass and drum backing track where you can set whatever tempo or style you want.

#2595925 - 12/18/16 07:11 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Here is a place where you can get some "Real" Jazz composed by a credible Jazz player/composer.



http://www.onlinesheetmusic.com/jazz-montage-level-2-late-elementary-piano-solos-p316003.aspx

There is a series authored by Larry Minsky. If you ask around you will find that he and his compositions are well thought of. He supplies the "improv" also as part of his compositions.

Book 2 would probably be your level. It goes through book 5.


Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#2596007 - 12/18/16 11:17 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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He's playing it as a ballad , nobody needs to make any swing beat when playing a jazz ballad. Keep doing what you are doing Goldamn.
Next is "Body and Soul" , surely a ballad.


Casio PX-360 digital piano, Mojo 61 digital organ, 1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.
#2600194 - 01/02/17 08:32 AM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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I don't find that cocktail at all. Its just a nice Jazz ballad - well played. The harmonies you've used take it away from the cocktail area in my view.

Have a listen to Bill Evans playing ballads, and if you're a reader take a look at some of the excellent transcriptions of his playing that are available. These will certainly take you to another level.

That said there are loads of books/youtube videos/digital sheet music etc that can assist you. Dave Franks website is also a good place for further information and study.

'Swinging' is another area to study, and in my view more difficult to play as a solo pianist.

The main thing is to have fun, try to develop your own voice, and enjoy what you're doing. If you like playing ballads in that style, ignore what everybody has said here (including me) and carry on doing it!


Cheers

Simon






Simon
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Primarily working on:
No Mystery (Corea)
Elite Syncopations (Joplin)



#2600285 - 01/02/17 01:41 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Perhaps calling something "cocktail" is a loaded word around here. But the OP asked what to do next and referenced learning more chords and inversions. I think the OP has plenty of harmony, and if the OP wants to progress in jazz, the next step is to start working on swing. Just my opinion!

#2600309 - 01/02/17 02:41 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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A good jazz pianist can see every chord in every inversion visually on the keyboard. Not in theory in there head and never on a staff, but always right there in front of their fingers. It's beyond knowing the theory. It's being acquainted with chords on the physical keyboard to the point of instant recall where one can see and grasp all the chord possibilities right away.

#2600342 - 01/02/17 04:16 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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rintincop: The OP posted a recording and asked for advice as to what he/she should work on. I, of course, know that learning chords so that they become intuitive is an important goal. But in terms of priorities, I thought rhythm might be something better to focus on. You disagree, and now the OP has a couple of different perspectives.

#2600347 - 01/02/17 04:49 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Both perspectives are correct guys.

Understanding chords etc; and learning to swing are both essential parts of Jazz Piano playing. Ultimately its up to Goldman to decide how he/she wants to progress now.

And as jjo said much of this is just opinion. A non-jazz person might well listen to Bill Evans and say "that's just background music". We know better though!

Cheers

Simon


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Primarily working on:
No Mystery (Corea)
Elite Syncopations (Joplin)



#2600404 - 01/02/17 08:26 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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I enjoy hearing a variety of opinions, but saying Bill Evans is "background music" goes too far! Thems fightin words! (But there are a lot of people who would probably say that.)

#2600485 - 01/03/17 02:03 AM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: jjo]  
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Originally Posted by jjo
I enjoy hearing a variety of opinions, but saying Bill Evans is "background music" goes too far! Thems fightin words! (But there are a lot of people who would probably say that.)
Why? "Peace Peace" is quite atmosphere and mood music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv2GgV34qIg

#2600629 - 01/03/17 01:16 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Nahum: My post was intended mostly as a joke. I don't disagree with the point Simon was making, that opinions on music can vary widely. And he made it well by noting that there are even people who'd consider the great Bill Evans worthy of nothing more than background music.

It might help to explain a bit, since I know English is not you're native tongue (though you clearly know it very well). To say something is background music means it's not serious music; it only deserves to be on in the background while you're doing something else. Background music is, maybe, one step above elevator music. Obviously, most or all people on this site know that Bill Evans is a great pianist worthy of serious listening.

#2600644 - 01/03/17 01:48 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Originally Posted by GoldmanT


Autumn Leaves

Autumn Leaves improv.mp3


How would you suggest I progress from here?

Learn more tunes, learn chord inversions, analyse this recording to work out what I did (because a lot of it I couldn't explain harmonically if I tried)?


Learn to run scales in 1/8th notes with chord tones on the strong beats and land on a chord tone of the chord in the next bar on each downbeat. Simplify the rhythm in your left hand.
Play the 1/8th note lines and span them over 3 measures.

I'm in JJO's camp here. He gave you a clear answer and way forward.

The problem with forum answers is the illuminati always start pecking at each other's toes.

#2602599 - 01/09/17 07:21 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Thanks for all the advice, didn't realise the thread was still going. smile

I ordered a Hal Leonard Intro to Jazz Piano book so will work through that. A difficulty I find is that I trained on electric organ so am not used to playing bass lines with the left hand, and also playing solo is a bit overwhelming, trying to do bass/comp/melody in one go. So maybe backing tracks will help with that, relieving the bass duties.

Any recommendations for listening to solo jazz pianists that can do the bass/chords/melody thing really well?

#2602645 - 01/09/17 10:05 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Avoid left hand bass lines.

#2602663 - 01/09/17 10:42 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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totally.

#2602846 - 01/10/17 01:36 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Originally Posted by GoldmanT


Any recommendations for listening to solo jazz pianists that can do the bass/chords/melody thing really well?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey-YWlT1Gc8&t=9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfCg6QlXsWs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJjf9iBqcgU



#2603212 - 01/11/17 11:38 AM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: Simon_b]  
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Originally Posted by Simon_b

'Swinging' is another area to study, and in my view more difficult to play as a solo pianist.

"If I have to explain it, you haven't got it" is the famous quote I recall about swing. Not sure by whom. Don't want to go look it up now. Perhaps it was, Fats? Anyway, it was a harsh if not rude response but was clear to the point they were making. Anyone that generally agrees with the quote, would also probably agree thus, that it would be a difficult topic to study.

Swing is a feel, the way I think of it anyway, and it is best developed by playing with others. Improvisation and jazz styles can be taught, but not really how to swing. Some coaching could help a bit, but not a lot.

----

Very good, Goldman. Excellent in fact considering you don't know much about chords. For you I'd suggest keep working on the improv. You're good at it. I agree though, to add things that can swing. Autumn Leaves can surely swing, but I agree that as a ballad is great and does not need to. It is how I did it I think. For fun, you could try going into tempo with a verse and chorus, another treatment of rhythm and see if you can get it to swing. It's fine the way it is coming though if you would rather not with this piece. There are plenty others to choose from.

Last edited by Greener; 01/11/17 11:50 AM. Reason: not sure if there is a chorus :)
#2603378 - 01/11/17 07:02 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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Thank you - I do understand chords (e.g. what a sus4-7-b9 is etc) but I just can't think quick enough to link them at speed with melodies over the top. Probably just need a backing track or drumbeat to keep me disciplined, maybe something simple like I've Got Rhythm or some old big band tunes.

#2603428 - 01/11/17 09:20 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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In Dave Frank's Introduction to Jazz Piano videos, he advises learning the chord progression for a given tune really well in your left hand first. Once you have that down, then start with improvising in your right hand over the comfortable left hand.

Actually, he breaks it down further than that, starting with practicing typical types of chord progressions first before getting to full tunes (and again, first left hand, then both hands).

Dave, if I've misstated your method, please do correct me! I listened to the videos this winter and they have inspired me.


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#2603457 - 01/11/17 11:09 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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You forgot to mention that you are supposed to get really high on nutmeg first) Other than right you got it fine!

#2603563 - 01/12/17 10:06 AM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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I'll lay in a supply of nutmeg posthaste smile .


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Theta Music Trainer - fun ear training games
#2603683 - 01/12/17 03:08 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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I am compelled to give a shoutout to a website that is absolutely the best I have ever seen for someone to start at the beginning and work through a series of lessons and arrive at being a super skilled jazz improviser.

Here it is ....


http://jazzskillsforpiano.com/jazzskills-info/


I can absolutely guarantee that if you do the lessons and actually master the skills presented (a big IF) you will come out the other side as a master improviser.

The problem is ... you have to work very hard in doing what is suggested and it will take years to accomplish.

The Good News is that most of it is fairly enjoyable. At least, I find it so.

But, anyway .... there it is for you.

Do with it as you think best.

Good Luck


Last edited by dmd; 01/12/17 03:30 PM.

Don

Current: ES8, ProFX8 Mixer, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD598 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, JBL LSR305 Powered Monitors, Pianoteq 5,TruePiano,Ravenscroft275,TrueKeys American,Galaxy Vintage D,Ivory II,Alicia's Keys,CFX Concert Grand, The Grandeur
#2604014 - 01/13/17 11:24 AM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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I'd recommend listening to Bill Evans playing solo. Particularly as some of the time he comps with his left hand as though he was playing with a bass player. Whilst being able to play like him is a fantasy for the vast majority of us, if he just played chords (admittedly very sophisticated ones) in his left hand when playing solos in a solo Piano situation then so can you.

Many decades ago when I first started playing seriously, I also played electric organ and started my jazz playing by just playing chords in the left hand as that's what I did on the organ. Like Bill Evans (how wonderful to compare myself to him - ha ha) I've managed to move onto other types of left hand playing...

That was a long-winded way of saying that I think the left-handed comp style is good way into improvising and swinging. Regarding backing tracks etc. Yes all good to use. A metronome is also good enough - it gives you the beat!

Even better find a bass player and/or a drummer. There is nothing like playing with other musicians to find out what works or doesn't work for you.

Cheers

Simon


Simon
Yamaha CLP535
Primarily working on:
No Mystery (Corea)
Elite Syncopations (Joplin)



#2604044 - 01/13/17 12:33 PM Re: Where next in jazz piano/improv? [Re: GoldmanT]  
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If you are lucky as I am to be able to count steady and not slow down or rush, speed up it is easy to keep time with nothing but your own count. My instructor taught me to count in 8th notes - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1 2 3.... He also said, as much as possible to look at the notes on the score as 8th notes. It does not work on all scores. However, on 4/4, or 2/4 meter it works great. In 2/4 time I look at 16th notes as 8th notes. 8th notes as quarter notes. I always start learning a song very slow. When I can play it up to speed I do not even count. I think this is the only thing in music I am good at. Maybe it is because I played clarinet since age 10.

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