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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: pianistje] #2602479
01/09/17 12:52 PM
01/09/17 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by pianistje
But still ''grand piano action'' inherited from Yamaha's concert grands.
I hoped they would go all the way by adding a full sized concert ''keyboard''.
Nothing beats playing a concert grand with full sized concert keys.


Concert grands have larger keys?

Learn something new every day! smile


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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: polo1] #2602483
01/09/17 01:00 PM
01/09/17 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by polo1
Concert grands have larger keys?

Learn something new every day! smile


They are longer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAAa9KyoJt8&feature=youtu.be&t=2m11s

Apparently...

Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602502
01/09/17 01:59 PM
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Does any digital grand today have concert grand sized keys...?


Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: polo1] #2602505
01/09/17 02:10 PM
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EssBrace Offline
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Originally Posted by polo1
Does any digital grand today have concert grand sized keys...?



Sure....

[Linked Image]


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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602506
01/09/17 02:13 PM
01/09/17 02:13 PM
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http://www.alpha-piano.com/kopie-von-portfolio

http://www.alpha-piano.com/beschreibung-alpha-piano

CONCERT GRAND PIANO ACTION

All ALPHA pianos make use of a complete concert grand piano action, like the one used in a Bösendorfer 280, Steinway D-274 or Yamaha CF-X. No other electronic piano in the world exhibits these properties. The uncompromising striving for perfection is complemented by an original Renner action and genuine felt hammer heads.







website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: EssBrace] #2602507
01/09/17 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by polo1
Does any digital grand today have concert grand sized keys...?



Sure....

[Linked Image]



That's not a digital smile


Originally Posted by Dave Horne
http://www.alpha-piano.com/kopie-von-portfolio

http://www.alpha-piano.com/beschreibung-alpha-piano

CONCERT GRAND PIANO ACTION

All ALPHA pianos make use of a complete concert grand piano action, like the one used in a Bösendorfer 280, Steinway D-274 or Yamaha CF-X. No other electronic piano in the world exhibits these properties. The uncompromising striving for perfection is complemented by an original Renner action and genuine felt hammer heads.








That doesn't say anything about the size of the keys...?


Last edited by polo1; 01/09/17 02:28 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: polo1] #2602518
01/09/17 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by polo1
That's not a digital smile


Well, to all intents and purposes the piano is actually. Not sure about the chubby guy sticking his tongue out though, he might be digital too.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602531
01/09/17 04:07 PM
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At the end of the day it's only a sample.

This is where piano companies make their money.

what is next? the n3 y or z.

It leaves customers dissatisfied when a newer better model comes out.

I think with moddeling the very limit has been reached with the v-piano

ala why we have seen no new roland come out, but with sampling who

knows where the line will be drawn.

Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: jwmp] #2602572
01/09/17 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jwmp

I think with moddeling the very limit has been reached with the v-piano


That's a bit like saying that with pianoteq 4 the limit has been reached with moddeling; nonetheless, we are playing pianoteq 5.8 now, which is greatly improved, and speculation is that pianoteq 6 will soon come out.

The v-piano is a niche product (very much so), that is why nothing newer was developed and released, but don't neglect all the recent mass market digitals that they released, featuring modelling which in some regards may just as well be above that in the V (don't quote me on that though).


Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: mcoll] #2602573
01/09/17 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mcoll
Originally Posted by jwmp

I think with moddeling the very limit has been reached with the v-piano


That's a bit like saying that with pianoteq 4 the limit has been reached with moddeling; nonetheless, we are playing pianoteq 5.8 now, which is greatly improved, and speculation is that pianoteq 6 will soon come out.

The v-piano is a niche product (very much so), that is why nothing newer was developed and released, but don't neglect all the recent mass market digitals that they released, featuring modelling which in some regards may just as well be above that in the V (don't quote me on that though).



+1

Originally Posted by jwmp

I think with moddeling the very limit has been reached with the v-piano


To add, I am not sure I get you, like many problems in science, theoretical understanding is far ahead of what affordable hardware can actually do in real time, and the V grand hardware is now quite old anyway. I expect the V grand is no different like pteq in many ways, they approximate/simplify and neglect many aspects of sound generation because of realtime constraints, so it can be kept reasonable in affordable hardware.

The way I see it in modelling, what we get in our hands is only in its infancy at this point, so much more is possible and there are models already out there that do far more accurate/advanced calculations to generate piano sounds. That is just based on having had a look at some journals here and there last year, just out of curiosity checking how they go about crunching those numbers and the modelling involved, but I don't know more than that in detail, it is not my area of expertise. Unfortunately, on a desktop computer it would take twenty minutes or more to calculate one note, not very useful for practical use, not to mind multiple notes in some of the proposed models in the papers I did come across, and some far more.

As hardware evolves at more affordable cost, models will follow suit to make use of it, of that I am sure. Even existing models like pteq perhaps, because it needs to run on a range of home computers on the CPU are not even touching on what may be possible to extract from current PC hardware either, like many of the very the powerful GPUs available today would lend themselves well to this kind of numerical problem (I strongly suspect).

The notion of a CUDA or OpenCL enabled pteq on the GPU, where it would be nice to have a mode for offline rendering, basically play the piece, record it, the PC might take an hour to render the result for production quality piano sound seems like an interesting idea to me as well in future.

Pteq already kind of has a high quality export option, but I suspect it only marginally differs for the base model how it works things out in realtime, it pretty much takes the same time to export, but we can dream right smile

Anyway, the time will come eventually one day that more pure modelling will rule and becomes the obvious choice in pianos I feel, but it is not there yet on several levels (IMO).


Selftaught since June 2014.
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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: polo1] #2602600
01/09/17 06:22 PM
01/09/17 06:22 PM
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That doesn't say anything about the size of the keys...?

You didn't read the blurb I copied and pasted in that post.

The three pianos mentioned in that blurb are all concert grands ... 274 cm \ nine feet give or take.

The Alpha-Piano uses a concert grand piano action. I played one of the prototypes when it was a Bösendorfer project.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Alexander Borro] #2602672
01/09/17 10:02 PM
01/09/17 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro


To add, I am not sure I get you, like many problems in science, theoretical understanding is far ahead of what affordable hardware can actually do in real time, and the V grand hardware is now quite old anyway. I expect the V grand is no different like pteq in many ways, they approximate/simplify and neglect many aspects of sound generation because of realtime constraints, so it can be kept reasonable in affordable hardware.

The way I see it in modelling, what we get in our hands is only in its infancy at this point, so much more is possible and there are models already out there that do far more accurate/advanced calculations to generate piano sounds. That is just based on having had a look at some journals here and there last year, just out of curiosity checking how they go about crunching those numbers and the modelling involved, but I don't know more than that in detail, it is not my area of expertise. Unfortunately, on a desktop computer it would take twenty minutes or more to calculate one note, not very useful for practical use, not to mind multiple notes in some of the proposed models in the papers I did come across, and some far more.

As hardware evolves at more affordable cost, models will follow suit to make use of it, of that I am sure. Even existing models like pteq perhaps, because it needs to run on a range of home computers on the CPU are not even touching on what may be possible to extract from current PC hardware either, like many of the very the powerful GPUs available today would lend themselves well to this kind of numerical problem (I strongly suspect).

The notion of a CUDA or OpenCL enabled pteq on the GPU, where it would be nice to have a mode for offline rendering, basically play the piece, record it, the PC might take an hour to render the result for production quality piano sound seems like an interesting idea to me as well in future.

Pteq already kind of has a high quality export option, but I suspect it only marginally differs for the base model how it works things out in realtime, it pretty much takes the same time to export, but we can dream right smile

Anyway, the time will come eventually one day that more pure modelling will rule and becomes the obvious choice in pianos I feel, but it is not there yet on several levels (IMO).


I'd like to see modeling software connected to the IBM super computer, that is in the news every so often, and see if modeling on that level really can recreate all or most of what he hear when we play a high end grand of at least 7'.


AG N2 | CP4 | SSv3 | GK MK & MP
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: 36251] #2602716
01/10/17 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 36251
I'd like to see modeling software connected to the IBM super computer, that is in the news every so often, and see if modeling on that level really can recreate all or most of what he hear when we play a high end grand of at least 7'.


Probably getting a bit OT (what is this, the Internet?) but if you're talking about their Jeopardy sc "Watson," it's a bit of a lightweight in supercomputer terms, we're talking more than 1000x slower than the fastest supercomputers around today (though it's obviously got the chops for anything being designed for the consumer market today).

And once you're in the province of real supercomputers, modeling isn't just running existing algos faster, now you've got to get the actual knowledge, data and formulas to create a significantly more accurate model at a more fundamental level (not just to be more accurate, but to keep that supercomputer busy)--the physical attributes of the wood in the body, the density and purity of the cast iron harp, the metallurgy of alloys in the strings and the relationship between the tension and elasticity of the coil radius, the material science behind the wood and felt in each part of the action and how friction, humidity, temperature, air density, all affect those, a thousand and one other elements like that, etc. Miss these and you're leaving multiple millions of millions of FLOPs of compute resources (and thus $$) the table. So once you have the resources to measure and understand and create the model, and you actually write the hundreds of thousands or millions of lines of code for it, then you can run buy the supercomputer time, run it, and release the audio rendering to Youtube, where everyone will promptly respond "Meh, maybe it's somewhat dynamic/expressive, but it sounds way too sterile and artificial compared to the samples in my Yamaha Piaggero."


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Gombessa] #2602860
01/10/17 01:22 PM
01/10/17 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by 36251
I'd like to see modeling software connected to the IBM super computer, that is in the news every so often, and see if modeling on that level really can recreate all or most of what he hear when we play a high end grand of at least 7'.


Probably getting a bit OT (what is this, the Internet?) but if you're talking about their Jeopardy sc "Watson," it's a bit of a lightweight in supercomputer terms, we're talking more than 1000x slower than the fastest supercomputers around today (though it's obviously got the chops for anything being designed for the consumer market today).

And once you're in the province of real supercomputers, modeling isn't just running existing algos faster, now you've got to get the actual knowledge, data and formulas to create a significantly more accurate model at a more fundamental level (not just to be more accurate, but to keep that supercomputer busy)--the physical attributes of the wood in the body, the density and purity of the cast iron harp, the metallurgy of alloys in the strings and the relationship between the tension and elasticity of the coil radius, the material science behind the wood and felt in each part of the action and how friction, humidity, temperature, air density, all affect those, a thousand and one other elements like that, etc. Miss these and you're leaving multiple millions of millions of FLOPs of compute resources (and thus $$) the table. So once you have the resources to measure and understand and create the model, and you actually write the hundreds of thousands or millions of lines of code for it, then you can run buy the supercomputer time, run it, and release the audio rendering to Youtube, where everyone will promptly respond "Meh, maybe it's somewhat dynamic/expressive, but it sounds way too sterile and artificial compared to the samples in my Yamaha Piaggero."
Thanks. What I take from your response is we got time before modeling takes some large steps forward.


AG N2 | CP4 | SSv3 | GK MK & MP
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: 36251] #2602865
01/10/17 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 36251
Thanks. What I take from your response is we got time before modeling takes some large steps forward.


Heh, sorry didn't mean to imply that. In fact, I think full piano modeling can take any number of HUGE steps forward even if we were confined to today's consumer PCs, there's no reason to think there isn't a lot of headroom for growth.

But that also means, if you really want to leverage the power available with a bona fide supercomputer, we're really going to have to be able to more finely describe the details of how the physics of the world works within and around a piano, in order to fully utilize that kind of power. It's not the lack of compute power that holds us back, it's the difficulty of creating significantly more accurate/complex models.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602874
01/10/17 02:19 PM
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and even after all of that - put the highest end sampled performance over the highest end speakers and amps in the same room as a real grand, and most people will have no problem discerning the 'recording' from the real thing wink

Our stereo in the livingroom was about the price of an N3X when it was new - and it will not reproduce a grand's sound well enough to pass any blind test by any random person picked up off the street.
It sounds good real nice even but no never confuses with the real thing


more compute power for modelling or more in depth sampling techniques will advance things sure, but a great bottleneck is the quality of the speaker systems in these things.

A good candidate for better reproduction - electrostatic speaker systems inside instead of cone based drivers. Ultra low mass, very large surface area ^^





Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Goss] #2602876
01/10/17 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Goss
and even after all of that - put the highest end sampled performance over the highest end speakers and amps in the same room as a real grand, and most people will have no problem discerning the 'recording' from the real thing wink


This is an interesting question that affects the AG more than other DPs IMHO. It's not a question of how good the sampling is, but rather the amps/speakers.

When talking about samples/models, is it a fair comparison to stack any kind of speaker system against a real grand, or should we instead compare them against an acoustic grand that is being live-close-mic'd and output to identical speakers? For direct comparison of Pianoteq 5, SuperNatural, Harmonic Imaging XL, etc., I'd say that's more apples to apples.

But an AG is really billing itself as as close to the full package of a real grand, so it's entirely fair to compare to the actual piano.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602879
01/10/17 02:43 PM
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With all this in-depth discussion of sampling, modelling, comments as to the out-moded nature of the V-Piano/V-Grand, I experienced something today that proves the V-Grand perfectly sufficient for my needs.

One of the main reasons I bought a V-Grand was that, at that time, some of the comments I read in these forums from those few who seemed to see real value in the V-Piano/Grand, indicated that it was very easy to practice on a V-Piano and then be very comfortable right away on an acoustic.

This was important to me because, with any digital piano I prevously owned, going to a decent acoustic from these, the acoustic always felt out of control to me. My pedalling technique just plain "sucked", the keys felt way different, and I just was not developing a suitable technique for playing an acoustic. As long as I stayed with my digital piano, I would probably be fine. This would be an unrealistic expectation unless I expected to never play anywhere but at home on that digital piano.

I have been playing only my V-Grand for quite some time without benefit of access to an acoustic. A neighbor (whom I hardly ever see) down the hall has an acoustic baby grand piano in his condo unit. Today I saw him and asked if I could try playing on his piano. I was able to sit right down and play without any trouble because it reacted and felt very similar to my V-Grand.

So, regardless of what folks think here about how the V-Piano/Grand doesn't sound "real", that modelling has a long way to go, that the keys aren't long enough, the bottom line for me is that what I practice and learn on my V-Grand, transfers straight through to a "real" acoustic piano. That is reality for me.

I can't say one way or another whether the various digital grands from other manufacturers provide this same level of transference, but I can say my V-Grand certainly does. Bennevis, in particular, is spot on about that.

Tony


Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: TonyB] #2602881
01/10/17 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
...I experienced something today that proves the V-Grand perfectly sufficient for my needs.


Oh...you have a V-Grand?! And you like it apparently. Gosh, who knew?! Oh yeah, everyone.


Roland RD-1000 | Nord Piano 3 | Dexibell Vivo P7 | Yamaha CLP 645
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: EssBrace] #2602885
01/10/17 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Oh...you have a V-Grand?! And you like it apparently. Gosh, who knew?! Oh yeah, everyone.


Seriously, how old are you?

12...?


Last edited by polo1; 01/10/17 03:02 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602892
01/10/17 03:25 PM
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We're going to stop the car right now if you two don't behave.


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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Gombessa] #2602903
01/10/17 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

"Meh, maybe it's somewhat dynamic/expressive, but it sounds way too sterile and artificial compared to the samples in my Yamaha Piaggero."

Hahahahahahaha

Person 1: I bought a Piaggero last year to play in our companies amature band. I just upgraded to a secondhand CP50, Wow....night and day !!

Person 2: After playing the CP50 for 6 years (very good board overall) I took the plunge and bought the CP4.
The new keybed, but most of all the new CFX sample is quite an improvement,......a very happy camper here....

Person 3: I have the CP4, but sample fatigue started to spoil some of it's appeal. The static samples,few layers, short decays and the absence of symphatic resonance became way more obvious than when i first bought it. I have Pianoteq5 now.....the Grotrian add onn especcially and it behaves and sounds like a real instrument.
I didn't care much for Pianoteq, but that changed in version 5. They truly upped the ant and are in some ways on par with the best sample libraries out there, but in other ways vastly superiour. I hardly use anything but Pianoteq nowadays.

Person 4 :I have Pianoteq5 with the Grotrian and Bechstein add on, but the K2 is still my favourite. They have come a long way, but the attacks and the lack of the wood sound of the upper hammerheads are still noticeable. Now i have just downloaded Pianoteq6 as a beta user and this is it people....this it is.
Modartt has a collaboration with the Chinese Government and their Sunway TaihuLight 93 Petaflop super computer made some new calculations involving every thinkable model that could be of influence in the piano's final sound.
''Well this is the end of sampling as we know it Jim''

Person 5:I was about to purchase Pianoteq six, but after using the trial version for a couple of days i came to the following conclusion. It's extremely dynamic/expressive, but it sounds a bit sterile and lifeless. We compared with my daughter's Piaggero and she and my wife thought it sounded more like a piano than Pianoteq. And they are both very musical. My wife is the first to notice any mistakes i make during a performance.


wow

Last edited by pianistje; 01/10/17 03:53 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: EssBrace] #2602917
01/10/17 04:22 PM
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TonyB Offline
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by TonyB
...I experienced something today that proves the V-Grand perfectly sufficient for my needs.


Oh...you have a V-Grand?! And you like it apparently. Gosh, who knew?! Oh yeah, everyone.


It is really strange that everybody else can talk about their digital pianos without "blow back". I have a V-Grand, which is being discussed by others in this thread. If I post, maybe because I own one, I am called on it.

Owning one, I can give my impression and experience, but somehow, that is interpreted in some negative fashion. Conjecture on the part of someone who has never played or even seen one except on Youtube, well that seems to be acceptable.

People here seem to focus on the technical details without really knowing what went into the design and coding of the V-Piano/V-Grand, and completely ignore the user experience. I can provide something of that part, which I would would be a normal part of the conversation, but I must have supposed wrong.

I am not saying the V-Grand is better than anything else. If anything, I have been trying in my posts to be really careful to NOT come across that way. Instead, I have been trying to give perspective of an owner of one of many "high end" possible choices. Why should that be subject to ridicule?

If my owning a V-Grand is really a problem, then I don't have to post here anymore. I, for some strange reason, thought that experience with the V-Grand may be of some interest since others here are discussing it. My mistake. How strange these threads can get.

Tony


Last edited by TonyB; 01/10/17 04:26 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: TonyB] #2602929
01/10/17 04:46 PM
01/10/17 04:46 PM
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polo1 Offline
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Originally Posted by TonyB
It is really strange that everybody else can talk about their digital pianos without "blow back". I have a V-Grand, which is being discussed by others in this thread. If I post, maybe because I own one, I am called on it.

Owning one, I can give my impression and experience, but somehow, that is interpreted in some negative fashion. Conjecture on the part of someone who has never played or even seen one except on Youtube, well that seems to be acceptable.

People here seem to focus on the technical details without really knowing what went into the design and coding of the V-Piano/V-Grand, and completely ignore the user experience. I can provide something of that part, which I would would be a normal part of the conversation, but I must have supposed wrong.

I am not saying the V-Grand is better than anything else. If anything, I have been trying in my posts to be really careful to NOT come across that way. Instead, I have been trying to give perspective of an owner of one of many "high end" possible choices. Why should that be subject to ridicule?

If my owning a V-Grand is really a problem, then I don't have to post here anymore. I, for some strange reason, thought that experience with the V-Grand may be of some interest since others here are discussing it. My mistake. How strange these threads can get.

Tony



It is great to see someone happy with their purchase and really enjoying the instrument they spent their money on.

And I thank you very much for all of your input on this site and in this thread - it has been of great value not only to me, but to others as well.

There are not a lot of people talking about the high-end digital pianos - so anyone who is and has one is a great resource on here.

And I happen to think your positive attitude is very welcome here - others (insert name here) should have such a great attitude.


Last edited by polo1; 01/10/17 04:50 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: polo1] #2602943
01/10/17 05:12 PM
01/10/17 05:12 PM
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TonyB Offline
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Originally Posted by polo1

It is great to see someone happy with their purchase and really enjoying the instrument they spent their money on.

And I thank you very much for all of your input on this site and in this thread - it has been of great value not only to me, but to others as well.

There are not a lot of people talking about the high-end digital pianos - so anyone who is and has one is a great resource on here.

And I happen to think your positive attitude is very welcome here - others (insert name here) should have such a great attitude.



Thanks polo1. There was a time a while back that I would post when discussion about the V-Piano or V-Grand would come up. I was called out quite rudely by another person on that. A couple of other people stood up for me in that case, but I just stopped mentioning my V-Grand for quite some time. I started mentioning it again here because folks asked about these higher end instruments and because that person who called me out the last time, does not seem to post here anymore.

It has never been my intention to even imply that the V-Grand is the only game in town. I have tried in my posts to specifically NOT do that because I wondered if there were still folks around sensitive to someone owning a digital piano like the V-Grand. Now I am finding that, yes, there still is at least one of these.

The interesting thing is that it always seems to be fine for those who own the Yamaha N series to post without repercussion, and the N3 seems to cost about what I paid for my V-Grand.

Personally, I believe that with these types of digital pianos, it is really about the playing experience, rather than whether it has this or that kind of sample or modelling engine. There have been a number of at least somewhat negative things said about the V-Piano/Grand that I feel are unwarranted, if only because nobody here is a Roland engineer and therefore has no real solid knowledge of exactly what the V-Grand is or is not doing inside. We can surmise some things, but not enough for a truly informed discussion. After a while, I get tired of reading that stuff because, in a way, it seems to imply once again that the unsuspecting public is being ripped off by the manufacturers selling us a "bill of goods".

My last post about the V-Grand was that all these things being discussed, ignore the playing experience. I have been working in embedded software for the better part of 25 years, so I am very familiar with the technical discussion here, but am also equally aware, therefore, of how much about the V-Grand we don't know.

Bennevis posted about the human experience aspect of the V-Grand in no uncertain terms. I respect him because I have heard him play. He is for real. My experience today is in line with what he has been saying. I am sorry that one person takes such exception to me talking about my experiences with the V-Grand. But I am curious why, when so many others discuss their respective digital pianos much more frequently, they are not called out as rudely as I am, if at all.

Anyway, thanks for the support. Now that there has been this complaint in this thread, I think I have said enough. I would rather pose another perspective for that person to think about, and then walk away from this rather than getting into a senseless fight with that person. I have done this across two posts, and that should be more than enough. If he still doesn't get it, that is not my problem.

I hope you have whatever information you need to help with your decision, and I wish you good fortune in your decision and subsequent purchase.

Thanks,

Tony


Last edited by TonyB; 01/10/17 05:15 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602953
01/10/17 05:32 PM
01/10/17 05:32 PM
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Goss Offline
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..perhaps envvy? I know I have some, both in regards to your piano and undoubtedly skill ^^

A beautiful piano.


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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602964
01/10/17 05:55 PM
01/10/17 05:55 PM
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twl Offline
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Thanks for your posts TonyB. I am particularly interested in experiences with the really high-end digital pianos. I am always intrigued that a few posters have tried running their VSTs through their top of the line digital piano speaker systems. The results so far seem to be mixed. It appears that the high end digital pianos are optimized only for their sound engines.

I wonder if Garritan CFX married to a VPC1 hooked up to a decent speaker system could outshine or come close to the Yamaha N3X.

Should you ever try running any VST through your V-grand, please inform.

Korg SG-1D, Presonus 22VSL, Pianoteq 5 (my favorite), Garritan CFX Lite (just purchased, like it a lot), Ravenscroft, Ivory II ACD, Italian & Grand pianos, Galaxy pianos.

Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602981
01/10/17 06:35 PM
01/10/17 06:35 PM
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TonyB Offline
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Thanks Goss and twl. I appreciate your comments. These tell me that I am not coming across to everybody in the way that the one poster seems to interpret my words.

I have not tried to run any VSTs through my DP. To me, it seems (as you say) that it is optimized for its sound engine and it is good enough for my use as is. If I try it some day, I will let you know, but I don't intend to purchase any of these VSTs.

With regards t the cost of my piano, I did get a substantial discount at the sale going on when I bought it locally. It was essentially my one big purchase as I retire. My wife and I each bought something we would use well into our retirement years. She bought a really nice sewing machine for her quilting activity. We have saved our money for this for years, so we are definitely not wealthy, but instead just have different financial priorities than perhaps some others here, or at least those who are in the later stages in life when we have accumulated some savings after years of working. That is not uncommon among those at the end of their long careers. Some folks will buy a new car, or take a big vacation, or whatever. I just bought a higher end digital piano. smile

Thanks,

Tony


Last edited by TonyB; 01/10/17 06:40 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: twl] #2603046
01/10/17 10:19 PM
01/10/17 10:19 PM
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Macy Offline
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Originally Posted by twl
Thanks for your posts TonyB. I am particularly interested in experiences with the really high-end digital pianos. I am always intrigued that a few posters have tried running their VSTs through their top of the line digital piano speaker systems. The results so far seem to be mixed. It appears that the high end digital pianos are optimized only for their sound engines.

I don't think that is true in general. I run VST's through the audio system of my Yamaha CVP-409GP and I think the sound is excellent. In fact I bought it with the intention of using it almost entirely for VSTs from day 1. I think the dispersion from the "mini grand piano" cabinet is a factor when playing from the "drivers seat". My friends that own acoustic pianos are also quite impressed with it too, even sitting in my fairly large living room.

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Macy

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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2603210
01/11/17 10:30 AM
01/11/17 10:30 AM
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Alexander Borro Offline
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I would imagine that, not from trying out first hand on the instruments mentioned here myself, but heard it said, and makes a whole lot of sense to me. Most VSTs as far as I am aware are just made/recorded to be used in stereo or some will have some binaural options.

Many of the more expensive digitals have multiple channel speaker setups, some sounds come out the top speakers, others out of the bottom etc. etc with the aim to approximate the sound field of an acoustic more convincingly, and the sound engine will be configured to work with that.

Examples I came across I did try out, like the roland LX17 has a complex speaker setup that envelops the player with sound. I would imagine with that setup, a VST in comparison will not nearly project as well with just stereo output to create that same sound field. There will be crossover frequencies for the various speakers, but the sound will just be distributed in a way that may not match up well in all respects (I expect), and sound a bit strange as a result.

If you had a more basic setup like say many slabs do with speakers build in, or some of the cheaper consoles with just straight 2 speaker setup, it simplifies matters in a way, since they are just made for stereo output.


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