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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602892
01/10/17 04:25 PM
01/10/17 04:25 PM
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Vught, The Netherlands
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We're going to stop the car right now if you two don't behave.


website | mp3 files | Yamaha AvantGrand N3 | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Gombessa] #2602903
01/10/17 04:49 PM
01/10/17 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

"Meh, maybe it's somewhat dynamic/expressive, but it sounds way too sterile and artificial compared to the samples in my Yamaha Piaggero."

Hahahahahahaha

Person 1: I bought a Piaggero last year to play in our companies amature band. I just upgraded to a secondhand CP50, Wow....night and day !!

Person 2: After playing the CP50 for 6 years (very good board overall) I took the plunge and bought the CP4.
The new keybed, but most of all the new CFX sample is quite an improvement,......a very happy camper here....

Person 3: I have the CP4, but sample fatigue started to spoil some of it's appeal. The static samples,few layers, short decays and the absence of symphatic resonance became way more obvious than when i first bought it. I have Pianoteq5 now.....the Grotrian add onn especcially and it behaves and sounds like a real instrument.
I didn't care much for Pianoteq, but that changed in version 5. They truly upped the ant and are in some ways on par with the best sample libraries out there, but in other ways vastly superiour. I hardly use anything but Pianoteq nowadays.

Person 4 :I have Pianoteq5 with the Grotrian and Bechstein add on, but the K2 is still my favourite. They have come a long way, but the attacks and the lack of the wood sound of the upper hammerheads are still noticeable. Now i have just downloaded Pianoteq6 as a beta user and this is it people....this it is.
Modartt has a collaboration with the Chinese Government and their Sunway TaihuLight 93 Petaflop super computer made some new calculations involving every thinkable model that could be of influence in the piano's final sound.
''Well this is the end of sampling as we know it Jim''

Person 5:I was about to purchase Pianoteq six, but after using the trial version for a couple of days i came to the following conclusion. It's extremely dynamic/expressive, but it sounds a bit sterile and lifeless. We compared with my daughter's Piaggero and she and my wife thought it sounded more like a piano than Pianoteq. And they are both very musical. My wife is the first to notice any mistakes i make during a performance.


wow

Last edited by pianistje; 01/10/17 04:53 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: EssBrace] #2602917
01/10/17 05:22 PM
01/10/17 05:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
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Twin Cities
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TonyB Online content
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by TonyB
...I experienced something today that proves the V-Grand perfectly sufficient for my needs.


Oh...you have a V-Grand?! And you like it apparently. Gosh, who knew?! Oh yeah, everyone.


It is really strange that everybody else can talk about their digital pianos without "blow back". I have a V-Grand, which is being discussed by others in this thread. If I post, maybe because I own one, I am called on it.

Owning one, I can give my impression and experience, but somehow, that is interpreted in some negative fashion. Conjecture on the part of someone who has never played or even seen one except on Youtube, well that seems to be acceptable.

People here seem to focus on the technical details without really knowing what went into the design and coding of the V-Piano/V-Grand, and completely ignore the user experience. I can provide something of that part, which I would would be a normal part of the conversation, but I must have supposed wrong.

I am not saying the V-Grand is better than anything else. If anything, I have been trying in my posts to be really careful to NOT come across that way. Instead, I have been trying to give perspective of an owner of one of many "high end" possible choices. Why should that be subject to ridicule?

If my owning a V-Grand is really a problem, then I don't have to post here anymore. I, for some strange reason, thought that experience with the V-Grand may be of some interest since others here are discussing it. My mistake. How strange these threads can get.

Tony


Last edited by TonyB; 01/10/17 05:26 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: TonyB] #2602929
01/10/17 05:46 PM
01/10/17 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyB
It is really strange that everybody else can talk about their digital pianos without "blow back". I have a V-Grand, which is being discussed by others in this thread. If I post, maybe because I own one, I am called on it.

Owning one, I can give my impression and experience, but somehow, that is interpreted in some negative fashion. Conjecture on the part of someone who has never played or even seen one except on Youtube, well that seems to be acceptable.

People here seem to focus on the technical details without really knowing what went into the design and coding of the V-Piano/V-Grand, and completely ignore the user experience. I can provide something of that part, which I would would be a normal part of the conversation, but I must have supposed wrong.

I am not saying the V-Grand is better than anything else. If anything, I have been trying in my posts to be really careful to NOT come across that way. Instead, I have been trying to give perspective of an owner of one of many "high end" possible choices. Why should that be subject to ridicule?

If my owning a V-Grand is really a problem, then I don't have to post here anymore. I, for some strange reason, thought that experience with the V-Grand may be of some interest since others here are discussing it. My mistake. How strange these threads can get.

Tony



It is great to see someone happy with their purchase and really enjoying the instrument they spent their money on.

And I thank you very much for all of your input on this site and in this thread - it has been of great value not only to me, but to others as well.

There are not a lot of people talking about the high-end digital pianos - so anyone who is and has one is a great resource on here.

And I happen to think your positive attitude is very welcome here - others (insert name here) should have such a great attitude.


Last edited by polo1; 01/10/17 05:50 PM.
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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: polo1] #2602943
01/10/17 06:12 PM
01/10/17 06:12 PM
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TonyB Online content
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Originally Posted by polo1

It is great to see someone happy with their purchase and really enjoying the instrument they spent their money on.

And I thank you very much for all of your input on this site and in this thread - it has been of great value not only to me, but to others as well.

There are not a lot of people talking about the high-end digital pianos - so anyone who is and has one is a great resource on here.

And I happen to think your positive attitude is very welcome here - others (insert name here) should have such a great attitude.



Thanks polo1. There was a time a while back that I would post when discussion about the V-Piano or V-Grand would come up. I was called out quite rudely by another person on that. A couple of other people stood up for me in that case, but I just stopped mentioning my V-Grand for quite some time. I started mentioning it again here because folks asked about these higher end instruments and because that person who called me out the last time, does not seem to post here anymore.

It has never been my intention to even imply that the V-Grand is the only game in town. I have tried in my posts to specifically NOT do that because I wondered if there were still folks around sensitive to someone owning a digital piano like the V-Grand. Now I am finding that, yes, there still is at least one of these.

The interesting thing is that it always seems to be fine for those who own the Yamaha N series to post without repercussion, and the N3 seems to cost about what I paid for my V-Grand.

Personally, I believe that with these types of digital pianos, it is really about the playing experience, rather than whether it has this or that kind of sample or modelling engine. There have been a number of at least somewhat negative things said about the V-Piano/Grand that I feel are unwarranted, if only because nobody here is a Roland engineer and therefore has no real solid knowledge of exactly what the V-Grand is or is not doing inside. We can surmise some things, but not enough for a truly informed discussion. After a while, I get tired of reading that stuff because, in a way, it seems to imply once again that the unsuspecting public is being ripped off by the manufacturers selling us a "bill of goods".

My last post about the V-Grand was that all these things being discussed, ignore the playing experience. I have been working in embedded software for the better part of 25 years, so I am very familiar with the technical discussion here, but am also equally aware, therefore, of how much about the V-Grand we don't know.

Bennevis posted about the human experience aspect of the V-Grand in no uncertain terms. I respect him because I have heard him play. He is for real. My experience today is in line with what he has been saying. I am sorry that one person takes such exception to me talking about my experiences with the V-Grand. But I am curious why, when so many others discuss their respective digital pianos much more frequently, they are not called out as rudely as I am, if at all.

Anyway, thanks for the support. Now that there has been this complaint in this thread, I think I have said enough. I would rather pose another perspective for that person to think about, and then walk away from this rather than getting into a senseless fight with that person. I have done this across two posts, and that should be more than enough. If he still doesn't get it, that is not my problem.

I hope you have whatever information you need to help with your decision, and I wish you good fortune in your decision and subsequent purchase.

Thanks,

Tony


Last edited by TonyB; 01/10/17 06:15 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602953
01/10/17 06:32 PM
01/10/17 06:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,221
the Netherlands
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..perhaps envvy? I know I have some, both in regards to your piano and undoubtedly skill ^^

A beautiful piano.


Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602964
01/10/17 06:55 PM
01/10/17 06:55 PM
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Thanks for your posts TonyB. I am particularly interested in experiences with the really high-end digital pianos. I am always intrigued that a few posters have tried running their VSTs through their top of the line digital piano speaker systems. The results so far seem to be mixed. It appears that the high end digital pianos are optimized only for their sound engines.

I wonder if Garritan CFX married to a VPC1 hooked up to a decent speaker system could outshine or come close to the Yamaha N3X.

Should you ever try running any VST through your V-grand, please inform.

Korg SG-1D, Presonus 22VSL, Pianoteq 5 (my favorite), Garritan CFX Lite (just purchased, like it a lot), Ravenscroft, Ivory II ACD, Italian & Grand pianos, Galaxy pianos.

Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2602981
01/10/17 07:35 PM
01/10/17 07:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
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Thanks Goss and twl. I appreciate your comments. These tell me that I am not coming across to everybody in the way that the one poster seems to interpret my words.

I have not tried to run any VSTs through my DP. To me, it seems (as you say) that it is optimized for its sound engine and it is good enough for my use as is. If I try it some day, I will let you know, but I don't intend to purchase any of these VSTs.

With regards t the cost of my piano, I did get a substantial discount at the sale going on when I bought it locally. It was essentially my one big purchase as I retire. My wife and I each bought something we would use well into our retirement years. She bought a really nice sewing machine for her quilting activity. We have saved our money for this for years, so we are definitely not wealthy, but instead just have different financial priorities than perhaps some others here, or at least those who are in the later stages in life when we have accumulated some savings after years of working. That is not uncommon among those at the end of their long careers. Some folks will buy a new car, or take a big vacation, or whatever. I just bought a higher end digital piano. smile

Thanks,

Tony


Last edited by TonyB; 01/10/17 07:40 PM.
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: twl] #2603046
01/10/17 11:19 PM
01/10/17 11:19 PM
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Macy Offline
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Originally Posted by twl
Thanks for your posts TonyB. I am particularly interested in experiences with the really high-end digital pianos. I am always intrigued that a few posters have tried running their VSTs through their top of the line digital piano speaker systems. The results so far seem to be mixed. It appears that the high end digital pianos are optimized only for their sound engines.

I don't think that is true in general. I run VST's through the audio system of my Yamaha CVP-409GP and I think the sound is excellent. In fact I bought it with the intention of using it almost entirely for VSTs from day 1. I think the dispersion from the "mini grand piano" cabinet is a factor when playing from the "drivers seat". My friends that own acoustic pianos are also quite impressed with it too, even sitting in my fairly large living room.

[Linked Image]



Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2603210
01/11/17 11:30 AM
01/11/17 11:30 AM
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Alexander Borro Offline
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I would imagine that, not from trying out first hand on the instruments mentioned here myself, but heard it said, and makes a whole lot of sense to me. Most VSTs as far as I am aware are just made/recorded to be used in stereo or some will have some binaural options.

Many of the more expensive digitals have multiple channel speaker setups, some sounds come out the top speakers, others out of the bottom etc. etc with the aim to approximate the sound field of an acoustic more convincingly, and the sound engine will be configured to work with that.

Examples I came across I did try out, like the roland LX17 has a complex speaker setup that envelops the player with sound. I would imagine with that setup, a VST in comparison will not nearly project as well with just stereo output to create that same sound field. There will be crossover frequencies for the various speakers, but the sound will just be distributed in a way that may not match up well in all respects (I expect), and sound a bit strange as a result.

If you had a more basic setup like say many slabs do with speakers build in, or some of the cheaper consoles with just straight 2 speaker setup, it simplifies matters in a way, since they are just made for stereo output.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Alexander Borro] #2606324
01/20/17 01:57 AM
01/20/17 01:57 AM
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Dave Ferris Offline
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Played this today at NAMM. Not owning the N3, I'm not intimately familiar with it so I'd have to have them side by side for comparison. But just going on memory the N3X seemed smoother and less electronic sounding on the top end. Better damper pedal integration too.

I spent a good 15 minutes on it early when we first arrived so there weren't a lot of people around making noise. I liked it …a lot.

I asked maybe 4 different Yamaha reps in the general area if they could give me a time table on an N2X. All said they didn't know.

Last edited by Dave Ferris; 01/20/17 02:53 AM.

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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2606332
01/20/17 02:26 AM
01/20/17 02:26 AM
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Posts: 14,830
Hamamatsu, Japan
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Dave, am I correct in thinking that you previously owned an AvantGrand?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Kawai James] #2606336
01/20/17 02:52 AM
01/20/17 02:52 AM
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No, never have owned one. I had the Gran Touch GT2 awhile back though.


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2005 NY Steinway D
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Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2606349
01/20/17 03:24 AM
01/20/17 03:24 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Ah, that's right.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2614856
02/15/17 08:04 PM
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Does anyone here know what the 'Acoustic Optimizer' and 'Stereophonic Optimizer' (N3X) does?

Also, it seems like Yamaha did revise the amplification on the N3X, but not the speakers. What, other than volume, does this mean in terms of a perceivable improvement in overall sound?

Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2623311
03/13/17 01:38 PM
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Has anyone been able to determine whether the Avantgrand problem with notes artificially getting louder when the damper pedal is depressed has been fixed with the N3X? Last year, Yamaha tech support assured me it had, but I'd like confirmation.

Also, are there any in depth reviews of the N3X? When the N3 and N2 came out, there were many reviews and YouTube videos. The only thing I've found is that marketing video with Francesco Tristano that's been out for some time now. Seems odd there's so little on it after it's been out for a while.

I'm waiting for the N2X I'm assuming will be released later this year, but will try out the N3X when it's available in my area.

Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2623341
03/13/17 02:57 PM
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Yes, there's not much in the way of reviews, but based on the specs, the N3X is not much of an improvement over the N3. If I had to, I'd get a used N3 and simply use it to control software pianos.

The N2 was released about three months after the N3; so yes, the N2X should be around the corner.

Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Pete14] #2623373
03/13/17 04:16 PM
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I don't have room for an N3 (I could have inherited a Steinway Model M in need of a rebuild if I had space for it) and I don't think I'd want to live with the auto crescendo when pedaling problem.

I currently use a midi controller and own in excess of 40 plugins. As I go along, I find I'm less interested in tweaking the software and mostly just want to practice and play (classical). I'd probably keep my midi rig for playing around with different instruments (especially period keyboards and non-keyboard samples) but I want the high end hybrid with its built in sounds in addition for pure piano practice without any of the hassles of external sound generation interfaces.

I found the action and sound of the N3 I tried last year to be just fine, but again, I wouldn't want to accept the damper pedal defect at this point. I almost bought an N2 last year for $9,000 delivered, but pulled out at the last minute when I heard that the N3X was being released. My hope is that the 'X' releases offer enough improvements over the first gen Avantgrands to justify paying full price.

I suppose I will just have to wait to try a future N2X.

Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Dutch Dhamma] #2623376
03/13/17 04:58 PM
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It seems like Yamaha has never admitted to the 'crescendo,' yet it is there.
I expect this to be corrected for the new models.

Re: New Yamaha AvantGrand N3 X [Re: Pete14] #2623589
03/14/17 12:28 PM
03/14/17 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
It seems like Yamaha has never admitted to the 'crescendo,' yet it is there.
I expect this to be corrected for the new models.


I would hope not. I've never thought this to be a problem for our N3. I just went over the our C3X and held down chords from several places, press the sustain pedal, and behold, a crescendo. This is the way my C3X behaves and I'm very happy the N3 does the same. There is nothing to be fixed.

I just tried the same thing on our Essex EUP123 (upright), and again when I hold chords and press the sustain pedal, there is a crescendo, except it is a smaller one than my C3X. I don't have a CF3S to try but, I'd imagine the crescendo is more than my C3X.

As for the question of where the extra energy is coming from, isn't it obvious? It's coming from released tension of all the other strings. The sympathetic resonance on an acoustic piano is very strong and very loud, and the tension of all the strings on the soundboard is massive. After I play my CLP too many days without going back to the C3X, I get really confused, so much so that it feels like I have to re-learn some passages.

The problem with the N3 is that the crescendo as you press the pedal makes things louder, which the C3X does, but the N3 does not give me the interplay of sounds from the other strings. This makes it sound like it's just louder, but if you listen carefully, it's also a little fuller. It's the limits of DP technology guys. The crescendo is something you should expect.

I have a recording of my C3X and there is this part where I'm pedaling and you could see in the dB meter for the track that moments AFTER the pedal is engaged, the volume goes up even though my hands are already in the key bed and the hammers already hit the strings. It's really obvious for 4 chords starting at 1:27. Watch the dB meter jump a second after the chord is played and pedaled at the chord change. The C3X just magically gives more sound (like delay reaction). The recording captures this, but imagine if you were in the room, it's actually even more. https://soundcloud.com/8octaves/an-ancient-tale

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