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Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? #2603098
01/11/17 02:49 AM
01/11/17 02:49 AM
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agent8698 Offline OP
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Watch Martha Argerich play the Scarlatti Sonata d-minor K.141:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjghYFgt8Zk

That's what I mean by fast, repeated notes.

I have watched hundreds of youtube videos in recent weeks, looking for any examples of a digital piano that can do that (or rather, that will allow that, assuming the performer can keep up).

I was amazed to find nothing. The closest I found was this Japanese pianist playing Hungarian Rhapsody #2 on a Roland V-Piano Grand: he seems to be running into the limitations of the action in the Friska section:
https://youtu.be/w0-dC7eT_Oo?t=6m34s

I'm a self-taught amateur who has been playing (mostly classical-oriented improvisation) on a semi-weighted Yamaha YPG-525 for the last 5 years or so. Of course, that action is lighter than a "fully weighted" action. I want to upgrade to a better digital piano action. Everybody seems to praise the Kawai MP11 and VPC1, but I spent an hour with an MP11, and I found the action to be very good, except for the ability under discussion.

Question: in the $1K to $3K range, are there any digital pianos (with weighted actions) that are good for fast, repeated notes?

The reason I care about fast, clean, and controllable repeated notes is because it is a way of estimating whether an action is able to handle other things like fast trills and fast ornaments, and not just with strong fingers in ideal conditions, but with weak fingers and in awkward conditions.

I also tried the Roland RD-800: that seemed to allow for slightly faster repetition than Kawai MP11 (I think), but it still felt like there's room for improvement (yes, my technique also has room for improvement). I wonder about the Roland PHA-50 action, for example, in the Roland FP-90 (I have not yet played an FP-90).

I also wonder about the Nord Piano 3: PianoManChuck praises its action as "very cool", but does not address the issue under discussion (nor does anybody else on youtube).


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603114
01/11/17 03:30 AM
01/11/17 03:30 AM
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Try going to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash store. The ones here have floor samples of pretty much everything in that $1K - $3K range.



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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603129
01/11/17 04:02 AM
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I think why DP's are limited in this area is because they use samples.

Roland however dont, they use moddeling technology instead of samples.

As I play classical music I am put off investing in a sample based digital piano.

Last edited by jwmp; 01/11/17 04:08 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603138
01/11/17 04:39 AM
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The speed of the action is determined by its mechanics jwmp - Our PHA-50 equipped Roland feels pretty fast.
Have not heard any complaints either about Kawai's Grand Feel II so I would put those on your short list for the visit to try some more out. CA series has the Grand Feel II action,as well as the MP11 for one.
Roland's HP and LX series as well as the DP603 and the FP90 have the PHA-50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKKBMUbt5cE
our dear PIanomanChuck might not expressly mention trills but he mentions blindfolding him behind a real grand and his beloved MP11 and not being able to practically tell anything negative about it ^^

Last edited by Goss; 01/11/17 04:39 AM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603143
01/11/17 05:21 AM
01/11/17 05:21 AM
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For fast repeats of the same note - the tremolo - is possible to do only on an acoustic grand with double escapement (invented mid 19th century). It isn't possible on an upright acoustic, as far as I'm aware.

It is a very difficult and relatively rare effect compared with some other decorations such as the trill or the turn. Liszt and Ravel's virtuoso pieces sometimes call for it. See 1:15 here
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vykux_ms-P4
On digital pianos, three sensor designs aim to copy the mechanism of double escapement, albeit by totally different means. Over the last 5 years, most mid and high range pianos from Roland Yamaha Casio and Kawai have three sensor keys - but you should check in the specifications when you try or buy.

EDIT! I've just seen your video in the first post. Scarlatti! So the effect is much older than I had thought. But of course this was not possible on piano until relatively recently (hence it appears mostly in 20th century piano music) But the Scarlatti played in the clip above was not written for piano but harpsichord or clavichord. None of the music written in between (all classical and most romantic) contains such tremelo effects.....As far as I'm aware...

Last edited by toddy; 01/11/17 06:14 AM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603184
01/11/17 08:57 AM
01/11/17 08:57 AM
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Good! I thought it was just me (though it could still be just me). My teacher had me practicing 16th and 32nd note trills and I just couldn't get the same responsiveness from the digital I use. It's still easier to do them on acoustic uprights and the responsiveness is excellent on the Steinway Grands at school.

I do manage decent trills and tremolos on my Roland FP-30, but single-note "3-peat" repetitions are a bear to do - even with the 3rd sensor. The repeat / reset rate of the keys isn't "solid-fast" enough, so it never feels like I have the same control that I do on the acoustics.

Don't get me wrong, I love the FP-30 and use it everyday, but this is definitely one of those issues that is making me look "up-market". I've heard the PHA-50 in the FP-90 is more sensitive, and I'd also be curious to try out some the Kawai's like the VPC1.

But it is a good question, do any of the US$1-3K keyboards have similar responsiveness and control for fast-repeated notes like what's possible on a Grand piano?


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603202
01/11/17 10:01 AM
01/11/17 10:01 AM
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Like any instrument, acoustic or otherwise, you have to work within the limitations of it. If you can play repetitions like Argerich, that is truly amazing and deserving of a Steinway concert grand that has been regulated to your personal needs. smile

I, sadly, cannot attempt repetitions that quickly with one hand. However, I could get close to that on my MP11 using two hands. So that does tell me that the GF action is capable - as I am sure many other actions mentioned in this thread are - and it's only my technical limitations that I'm running up against. I had mine set to the Normal touch curve setting, but could also achieve good separation on Light.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603206
01/11/17 10:19 AM
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There's a limit to how far you can go on a sampled digital.

The problem starts when fff sounds like ff.

No good for an experienced pianist.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: jwmp] #2603213
01/11/17 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jwmp
There's a limit to how far you can go on a sampled digital.

The problem starts when fff sounds like ff.

No good for an experienced pianist.


This post is specifically about repetitions, which are not necessarily related to dynamics. Not sure why you are bringing up dynamics, and I'm not sure that is the case for all sampled instruments (including software).


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603222
01/11/17 10:55 AM
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OP ought to try out the new Roland HP and LX series. fully moddeled.

Last edited by jwmp; 01/11/17 10:56 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603227
01/11/17 11:04 AM
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Are you sure it's a sensor limitation and not some other limitation in the digital piano?

You can check using something like the free MIDIOX program to see exactly what MIDI data the sensors are reporting.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603251
01/11/17 12:06 PM
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I have a yamaha cp4, the key repetition on that is the best I have ever experienced on a digital piano, it allows extremely rapid note repetition, faster than the clp585 they do, and much better than any roland I have played on, they cant actually perform rapid note repetitions properly I must add, the keyboard stumbles when you try properly, I have a roland rd800 and its not very good, for example I play Kapustin's concert etude no.3 on both keyboards and the cp4 allows effortless key repetition, which is crucial for this piece, the roland cant keep up with the demand and it does not play all notes.

Last edited by mwf; 01/11/17 12:07 PM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603255
01/11/17 12:08 PM
01/11/17 12:08 PM
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The new Casio GP300/500 action is extremely fast. There was a video posted here that showed it being hit with a mechanical hammer and it was able to do something crazy like 20 notes per second. I'm sure Martha Argerich could get her Scarlatti done on that - but it helps a lot if you are Martha Argerich!

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603264
01/11/17 12:20 PM
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One thing worth noting--whether the design is triple- or double-sensor the rate of repetition will mainly depend on how high you must lift the key before depressing it again.

Three-sensor setups generally work by inserting a middle sensor between the top (key up) and bottom (key down) sensors, so that you can partially lift a depressed key, and press it down again without first letting it rise completely. The relative position of third sensor between the other two controls how far you must lift the key before depressing again.

For me, this is highlighted on the Kawai's Grand Feel 1 action--there's a letoff simulation about halfway down the travel, but the third sensor isn't aligned perfectly with the letoff, it's actually a tad higher. This means two things:

1. You can't reliably press the key to the resistance point of the letoff, pause, and then fully depress the key to produce a sound like you can on a AP (for me, it works for about 1 in 5 keys), unless you change a setting to make key-down always produce a note.

2. Even though it is triple sensor, you have to let the key raise a fraction of a millimeter higher than you might expect before depressing it in order to get note to sound. You can still absolutely play VERY fast repeated notes, you just have to adjust your playing to account for that tiny bit of extra travel needed.

One of the changes Kawai made with Grand Feel 2 was to allow more reliable note generation at the point of letoff, which depending on how they implemented it, might mean that repetitions can happen at a lower key position than with GF1.

But almost all modern DPs should be able to generate tones faster than a human can realistically play, the question is how well they handle the "shortcut" we meatbags have developed with partial-key-releases allowed by double-escapement.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Morodiene] #2603265
01/11/17 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
I could get close to that on my MP11 using two hands. So that does tell me that the GF action is capable ... I had mine set to the Normal touch curve setting, but could also achieve good separation on Light.

I tried your two-handed single-repeating note on my FP-30, it was tricky, but once I hit the sweet spot, I was able to get a very fast repeat with a good separation between the notes - and I can see/feel clearly where the 3rd sensor kicks in.

So like your GF action, it looks like the PHA-IV Standard can do it. The best I can do for the single-handed 3-peats (and it's probably good enough for any piece I can play) is if I do clearly separated long pulls with my fingers. So my 3 middle fingers all fully extend from the base of my palm in a wave like motion and I strike each note staccato by pulling each finger/key back into my palm. Kinda like my hand is a galloping horse.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: mwf] #2603287
01/11/17 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mwf
I have a yamaha cp4, the key repetition on that is the best I have ever experienced on a digital piano, it allows extremely rapid note repetition, faster than the clp585 they do, and much better than any roland I have played on, they cant actually perform rapid note repetitions properly I must add, the keyboard stumbles when you try properly, I have a roland rd800 and its not very good, for example I play Kapustin's concert etude no.3 on both keyboards and the cp4 allows effortless key repetition, which is crucial for this piece, the roland cant keep up with the demand and it does not play all notes.


Thank you so much, I will look into the Yamaha cp4.

Originally Posted by ando
The new Casio GP300/500 action is extremely fast. There was a video posted here that showed it being hit with a mechanical hammer and it was able to do something crazy like 20 notes per second.


Thank you, I want to see that video, if anybody can post a link. The GP series is (I think) $5K +, so, too expensive for me. But if they can get the job done at all (with the fast repetitions), that is a big deal, like a luxury car that introduces some valuable new feature, and 5 years later, that feature may become standard even in economy models. Here is part of a review of the GP-series action:

"I was told that the Bechstein company wanted the fastest responding acoustic piano style action that was possible to get in a digital piano. To make this happen Bechstein's only recourse was to leave out the escapement "simulation" because otherwise that feature would have prevented a faster key movement for those players who perform at very high skill levels. In reality for most pianists, the escapement function on digital pianos is somewhat irrelevant because it's not the near same thing as in a real grand piano and is only simulated in a small way. With this in mind, the importance of key movement and faster triggering of the piano sound took priority over having a "simulated" escapement feature. I believe that Casio/Bechstein made the right choice because this Grand key action is lightning fast when it comes to playing authentic piano pieces [...]"

Originally Posted by Gombessa
One thing worth noting--whether the design is triple- or double-sensor the rate of repetition will mainly depend on how high you must lift the key before depressing it again.


That is why I am curious about the Nord Piano 3, because Nord writes this on their website:

Extended Triggering Range
The new keyboard technology makes both top and bottom triggering possible, resulting in amazing control when playing percussively as well as pianissimo with the keys half-pressed down.


There is a video that shows this 'bottom triggering' in action:

https://youtu.be/9_YAH3ceiYQ?t=10m28s

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603300
01/11/17 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by agent8698

That is why I am curious about the Nord Piano 3, because Nord writes this on their website:

Extended Triggering Range
The new keyboard technology makes both top and bottom triggering possible, resulting in amazing control when playing percussively as well as pianissimo with the keys half-pressed down.


There is a video that shows this 'bottom triggering' in action:

https://youtu.be/9_YAH3ceiYQ?t=10m28s


I'm not personally familiar with the Nord, but I think it's demonstrating 2 things:

1. Triple sensor that allows notes to be played when a key is only partially lifted, then depressed again. This lets you play faster notes because you don't have to wait for the key to come all the way back up before you press down again--and again almost all med-to-high end DPs should support it.

2. Simulation of key damper not dropping onto the string when only lifting the key past the third (middle) sensor. I'm not sure what other DPs do in this case, but the explanation seems logical and should be a fairly straightforward implementation (e.g., only damp the note when the top-most sensor registers open)?



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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603324
01/11/17 03:37 PM
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It is the first time I see the "bottom triggering" expression. It seems me the normal way of working for 3 sensors. Something which can be drawn like this :

[Linked Image]

(Picture taken from the Kawai site).

What puzzle me is the justfication of the top triggering (I understand a 2 sensors mode) :

Quote
a variety of other techniques, such as quick note repetitions at the key bottom or high velocity strokes within the top of the key range can also be performed as a result of the virtual Hammer action Technology.


If the purpose is a high velocity stroke, a high resolution timer associated with the sensors seems an other way. Don't "Roland DPs feature additional hardware dedicated to processing velocity" ? This info may be related.

But it is true that the lower we put the Sensor 2, the less velocity resolution we have if we don't increasy the sensor scan frequency.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: toddy] #2603332
01/11/17 03:58 PM
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If anything repetition should be easier on most triple sensor DPs than it is on acoustics, assuming the middle sensor is low enough in the key dip. Most DPs do not have the overall mass and inertia in the key system that an acoustic has and therefore for the same ~50g touch weight (static) should be able to return faster.

Playing on a cheap yamaha P series with GHS action I actually found trills to be incredibly easy, easier than GF2 and most acoustics. This is largely because the action lacks the heft of those and returns very fast, not very good practice for an acoustic though.

Regarding let off simulation, there are pros and cons. The con is mostly that the feel of let off is often considered an imperfection, albeit necessary one and therefore why bother putting it on a DP. The pro is that if you transition to a grand piano from a DP (or most uprights for that matter where the let off is barely perceptible) the let off can catch you out in quiet passages and lead to missed notes. To me this latter point is where the desire for let off simulation comes from.

Originally Posted by jwmp
There's a limit to how far you can go on a sampled digital.


Sampled vs modelled has no relation whatsoever to repetition speed of a DP, it depends on the speed with which the key returns and where the middle sensor is.

Originally Posted by toddy
For fast repeats of the same note - the tremolo - is possible to do only on an acoustic grand with double escapement (invented mid 19th century). It isn't possible on an upright acoustic, as far as I'm aware.


1821. However, it's perfectly possible on uprights, though fast quiet repetition is very tricky. There seems to be this ongoing myth floating about that uprights cannot repeat unless you fully release the key. Uprights that cannot repeat without full release either have a poor action design (no or very weak jack springs) or a regulation very badly out of whack, given they tend to occupy the low end and aren't particularly well cared for I suspect that the latter is perhaps more often the case.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Frédéric L] #2603372
01/11/17 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
What puzzle me is the justfication of the top triggering (I understand a 2 sensors mode)


I wonder about this also. Some other potential benefits of 3 sensors (or not)

- Maybe it is important to have sensor 1 be close to initial key stroke for precise velocity measurement

- Three sensors could allow additional precision and error correction on normal key strokes as there are three measurements(1-2, 2-3, 1-3) vs only one measurement for two sensor systems (1-2)

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