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Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? #2603098
01/11/17 02:49 AM
01/11/17 02:49 AM
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Watch Martha Argerich play the Scarlatti Sonata d-minor K.141:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjghYFgt8Zk

That's what I mean by fast, repeated notes.

I have watched hundreds of youtube videos in recent weeks, looking for any examples of a digital piano that can do that (or rather, that will allow that, assuming the performer can keep up).

I was amazed to find nothing. The closest I found was this Japanese pianist playing Hungarian Rhapsody #2 on a Roland V-Piano Grand: he seems to be running into the limitations of the action in the Friska section:
https://youtu.be/w0-dC7eT_Oo?t=6m34s

I'm a self-taught amateur who has been playing (mostly classical-oriented improvisation) on a semi-weighted Yamaha YPG-525 for the last 5 years or so. Of course, that action is lighter than a "fully weighted" action. I want to upgrade to a better digital piano action. Everybody seems to praise the Kawai MP11 and VPC1, but I spent an hour with an MP11, and I found the action to be very good, except for the ability under discussion.

Question: in the $1K to $3K range, are there any digital pianos (with weighted actions) that are good for fast, repeated notes?

The reason I care about fast, clean, and controllable repeated notes is because it is a way of estimating whether an action is able to handle other things like fast trills and fast ornaments, and not just with strong fingers in ideal conditions, but with weak fingers and in awkward conditions.

I also tried the Roland RD-800: that seemed to allow for slightly faster repetition than Kawai MP11 (I think), but it still felt like there's room for improvement (yes, my technique also has room for improvement). I wonder about the Roland PHA-50 action, for example, in the Roland FP-90 (I have not yet played an FP-90).

I also wonder about the Nord Piano 3: PianoManChuck praises its action as "very cool", but does not address the issue under discussion (nor does anybody else on youtube).


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603114
01/11/17 03:30 AM
01/11/17 03:30 AM
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Try going to a Guitar Center or Sam Ash store. The ones here have floor samples of pretty much everything in that $1K - $3K range.



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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603129
01/11/17 04:02 AM
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I think why DP's are limited in this area is because they use samples.

Roland however dont, they use moddeling technology instead of samples.

As I play classical music I am put off investing in a sample based digital piano.

Last edited by jwmp; 01/11/17 04:08 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603138
01/11/17 04:39 AM
01/11/17 04:39 AM
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The speed of the action is determined by its mechanics jwmp - Our PHA-50 equipped Roland feels pretty fast.
Have not heard any complaints either about Kawai's Grand Feel II so I would put those on your short list for the visit to try some more out. CA series has the Grand Feel II action,as well as the MP11 for one.
Roland's HP and LX series as well as the DP603 and the FP90 have the PHA-50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKKBMUbt5cE
our dear PIanomanChuck might not expressly mention trills but he mentions blindfolding him behind a real grand and his beloved MP11 and not being able to practically tell anything negative about it ^^

Last edited by Goss; 01/11/17 04:39 AM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603143
01/11/17 05:21 AM
01/11/17 05:21 AM
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For fast repeats of the same note - the tremolo - is possible to do only on an acoustic grand with double escapement (invented mid 19th century). It isn't possible on an upright acoustic, as far as I'm aware.

It is a very difficult and relatively rare effect compared with some other decorations such as the trill or the turn. Liszt and Ravel's virtuoso pieces sometimes call for it. See 1:15 here
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vykux_ms-P4
On digital pianos, three sensor designs aim to copy the mechanism of double escapement, albeit by totally different means. Over the last 5 years, most mid and high range pianos from Roland Yamaha Casio and Kawai have three sensor keys - but you should check in the specifications when you try or buy.

EDIT! I've just seen your video in the first post. Scarlatti! So the effect is much older than I had thought. But of course this was not possible on piano until relatively recently (hence it appears mostly in 20th century piano music) But the Scarlatti played in the clip above was not written for piano but harpsichord or clavichord. None of the music written in between (all classical and most romantic) contains such tremelo effects.....As far as I'm aware...

Last edited by toddy; 01/11/17 06:14 AM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603184
01/11/17 08:57 AM
01/11/17 08:57 AM
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Good! I thought it was just me (though it could still be just me). My teacher had me practicing 16th and 32nd note trills and I just couldn't get the same responsiveness from the digital I use. It's still easier to do them on acoustic uprights and the responsiveness is excellent on the Steinway Grands at school.

I do manage decent trills and tremolos on my Roland FP-30, but single-note "3-peat" repetitions are a bear to do - even with the 3rd sensor. The repeat / reset rate of the keys isn't "solid-fast" enough, so it never feels like I have the same control that I do on the acoustics.

Don't get me wrong, I love the FP-30 and use it everyday, but this is definitely one of those issues that is making me look "up-market". I've heard the PHA-50 in the FP-90 is more sensitive, and I'd also be curious to try out some the Kawai's like the VPC1.

But it is a good question, do any of the US$1-3K keyboards have similar responsiveness and control for fast-repeated notes like what's possible on a Grand piano?


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603202
01/11/17 10:01 AM
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Like any instrument, acoustic or otherwise, you have to work within the limitations of it. If you can play repetitions like Argerich, that is truly amazing and deserving of a Steinway concert grand that has been regulated to your personal needs. smile

I, sadly, cannot attempt repetitions that quickly with one hand. However, I could get close to that on my MP11 using two hands. So that does tell me that the GF action is capable - as I am sure many other actions mentioned in this thread are - and it's only my technical limitations that I'm running up against. I had mine set to the Normal touch curve setting, but could also achieve good separation on Light.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603206
01/11/17 10:19 AM
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There's a limit to how far you can go on a sampled digital.

The problem starts when fff sounds like ff.

No good for an experienced pianist.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: jwmp] #2603213
01/11/17 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jwmp
There's a limit to how far you can go on a sampled digital.

The problem starts when fff sounds like ff.

No good for an experienced pianist.


This post is specifically about repetitions, which are not necessarily related to dynamics. Not sure why you are bringing up dynamics, and I'm not sure that is the case for all sampled instruments (including software).


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603222
01/11/17 10:55 AM
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OP ought to try out the new Roland HP and LX series. fully moddeled.

Last edited by jwmp; 01/11/17 10:56 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603227
01/11/17 11:04 AM
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Are you sure it's a sensor limitation and not some other limitation in the digital piano?

You can check using something like the free MIDIOX program to see exactly what MIDI data the sensors are reporting.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603251
01/11/17 12:06 PM
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I have a yamaha cp4, the key repetition on that is the best I have ever experienced on a digital piano, it allows extremely rapid note repetition, faster than the clp585 they do, and much better than any roland I have played on, they cant actually perform rapid note repetitions properly I must add, the keyboard stumbles when you try properly, I have a roland rd800 and its not very good, for example I play Kapustin's concert etude no.3 on both keyboards and the cp4 allows effortless key repetition, which is crucial for this piece, the roland cant keep up with the demand and it does not play all notes.

Last edited by mwf; 01/11/17 12:07 PM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603255
01/11/17 12:08 PM
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The new Casio GP300/500 action is extremely fast. There was a video posted here that showed it being hit with a mechanical hammer and it was able to do something crazy like 20 notes per second. I'm sure Martha Argerich could get her Scarlatti done on that - but it helps a lot if you are Martha Argerich!

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603264
01/11/17 12:20 PM
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One thing worth noting--whether the design is triple- or double-sensor the rate of repetition will mainly depend on how high you must lift the key before depressing it again.

Three-sensor setups generally work by inserting a middle sensor between the top (key up) and bottom (key down) sensors, so that you can partially lift a depressed key, and press it down again without first letting it rise completely. The relative position of third sensor between the other two controls how far you must lift the key before depressing again.

For me, this is highlighted on the Kawai's Grand Feel 1 action--there's a letoff simulation about halfway down the travel, but the third sensor isn't aligned perfectly with the letoff, it's actually a tad higher. This means two things:

1. You can't reliably press the key to the resistance point of the letoff, pause, and then fully depress the key to produce a sound like you can on a AP (for me, it works for about 1 in 5 keys), unless you change a setting to make key-down always produce a note.

2. Even though it is triple sensor, you have to let the key raise a fraction of a millimeter higher than you might expect before depressing it in order to get note to sound. You can still absolutely play VERY fast repeated notes, you just have to adjust your playing to account for that tiny bit of extra travel needed.

One of the changes Kawai made with Grand Feel 2 was to allow more reliable note generation at the point of letoff, which depending on how they implemented it, might mean that repetitions can happen at a lower key position than with GF1.

But almost all modern DPs should be able to generate tones faster than a human can realistically play, the question is how well they handle the "shortcut" we meatbags have developed with partial-key-releases allowed by double-escapement.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Morodiene] #2603265
01/11/17 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
I could get close to that on my MP11 using two hands. So that does tell me that the GF action is capable ... I had mine set to the Normal touch curve setting, but could also achieve good separation on Light.

I tried your two-handed single-repeating note on my FP-30, it was tricky, but once I hit the sweet spot, I was able to get a very fast repeat with a good separation between the notes - and I can see/feel clearly where the 3rd sensor kicks in.

So like your GF action, it looks like the PHA-IV Standard can do it. The best I can do for the single-handed 3-peats (and it's probably good enough for any piece I can play) is if I do clearly separated long pulls with my fingers. So my 3 middle fingers all fully extend from the base of my palm in a wave like motion and I strike each note staccato by pulling each finger/key back into my palm. Kinda like my hand is a galloping horse.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: mwf] #2603287
01/11/17 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mwf
I have a yamaha cp4, the key repetition on that is the best I have ever experienced on a digital piano, it allows extremely rapid note repetition, faster than the clp585 they do, and much better than any roland I have played on, they cant actually perform rapid note repetitions properly I must add, the keyboard stumbles when you try properly, I have a roland rd800 and its not very good, for example I play Kapustin's concert etude no.3 on both keyboards and the cp4 allows effortless key repetition, which is crucial for this piece, the roland cant keep up with the demand and it does not play all notes.


Thank you so much, I will look into the Yamaha cp4.

Originally Posted by ando
The new Casio GP300/500 action is extremely fast. There was a video posted here that showed it being hit with a mechanical hammer and it was able to do something crazy like 20 notes per second.


Thank you, I want to see that video, if anybody can post a link. The GP series is (I think) $5K +, so, too expensive for me. But if they can get the job done at all (with the fast repetitions), that is a big deal, like a luxury car that introduces some valuable new feature, and 5 years later, that feature may become standard even in economy models. Here is part of a review of the GP-series action:

"I was told that the Bechstein company wanted the fastest responding acoustic piano style action that was possible to get in a digital piano. To make this happen Bechstein's only recourse was to leave out the escapement "simulation" because otherwise that feature would have prevented a faster key movement for those players who perform at very high skill levels. In reality for most pianists, the escapement function on digital pianos is somewhat irrelevant because it's not the near same thing as in a real grand piano and is only simulated in a small way. With this in mind, the importance of key movement and faster triggering of the piano sound took priority over having a "simulated" escapement feature. I believe that Casio/Bechstein made the right choice because this Grand key action is lightning fast when it comes to playing authentic piano pieces [...]"

Originally Posted by Gombessa
One thing worth noting--whether the design is triple- or double-sensor the rate of repetition will mainly depend on how high you must lift the key before depressing it again.


That is why I am curious about the Nord Piano 3, because Nord writes this on their website:

Extended Triggering Range
The new keyboard technology makes both top and bottom triggering possible, resulting in amazing control when playing percussively as well as pianissimo with the keys half-pressed down.


There is a video that shows this 'bottom triggering' in action:

https://youtu.be/9_YAH3ceiYQ?t=10m28s

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603300
01/11/17 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by agent8698

That is why I am curious about the Nord Piano 3, because Nord writes this on their website:

Extended Triggering Range
The new keyboard technology makes both top and bottom triggering possible, resulting in amazing control when playing percussively as well as pianissimo with the keys half-pressed down.


There is a video that shows this 'bottom triggering' in action:

https://youtu.be/9_YAH3ceiYQ?t=10m28s


I'm not personally familiar with the Nord, but I think it's demonstrating 2 things:

1. Triple sensor that allows notes to be played when a key is only partially lifted, then depressed again. This lets you play faster notes because you don't have to wait for the key to come all the way back up before you press down again--and again almost all med-to-high end DPs should support it.

2. Simulation of key damper not dropping onto the string when only lifting the key past the third (middle) sensor. I'm not sure what other DPs do in this case, but the explanation seems logical and should be a fairly straightforward implementation (e.g., only damp the note when the top-most sensor registers open)?



Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603324
01/11/17 03:37 PM
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It is the first time I see the "bottom triggering" expression. It seems me the normal way of working for 3 sensors. Something which can be drawn like this :

[Linked Image]

(Picture taken from the Kawai site).

What puzzle me is the justfication of the top triggering (I understand a 2 sensors mode) :

Quote
a variety of other techniques, such as quick note repetitions at the key bottom or high velocity strokes within the top of the key range can also be performed as a result of the virtual Hammer action Technology.


If the purpose is a high velocity stroke, a high resolution timer associated with the sensors seems an other way. Don't "Roland DPs feature additional hardware dedicated to processing velocity" ? This info may be related.

But it is true that the lower we put the Sensor 2, the less velocity resolution we have if we don't increasy the sensor scan frequency.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: toddy] #2603332
01/11/17 03:58 PM
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If anything repetition should be easier on most triple sensor DPs than it is on acoustics, assuming the middle sensor is low enough in the key dip. Most DPs do not have the overall mass and inertia in the key system that an acoustic has and therefore for the same ~50g touch weight (static) should be able to return faster.

Playing on a cheap yamaha P series with GHS action I actually found trills to be incredibly easy, easier than GF2 and most acoustics. This is largely because the action lacks the heft of those and returns very fast, not very good practice for an acoustic though.

Regarding let off simulation, there are pros and cons. The con is mostly that the feel of let off is often considered an imperfection, albeit necessary one and therefore why bother putting it on a DP. The pro is that if you transition to a grand piano from a DP (or most uprights for that matter where the let off is barely perceptible) the let off can catch you out in quiet passages and lead to missed notes. To me this latter point is where the desire for let off simulation comes from.

Originally Posted by jwmp
There's a limit to how far you can go on a sampled digital.


Sampled vs modelled has no relation whatsoever to repetition speed of a DP, it depends on the speed with which the key returns and where the middle sensor is.

Originally Posted by toddy
For fast repeats of the same note - the tremolo - is possible to do only on an acoustic grand with double escapement (invented mid 19th century). It isn't possible on an upright acoustic, as far as I'm aware.


1821. However, it's perfectly possible on uprights, though fast quiet repetition is very tricky. There seems to be this ongoing myth floating about that uprights cannot repeat unless you fully release the key. Uprights that cannot repeat without full release either have a poor action design (no or very weak jack springs) or a regulation very badly out of whack, given they tend to occupy the low end and aren't particularly well cared for I suspect that the latter is perhaps more often the case.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Frédéric L] #2603372
01/11/17 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
What puzzle me is the justfication of the top triggering (I understand a 2 sensors mode)


I wonder about this also. Some other potential benefits of 3 sensors (or not)

- Maybe it is important to have sensor 1 be close to initial key stroke for precise velocity measurement

- Three sensors could allow additional precision and error correction on normal key strokes as there are three measurements(1-2, 2-3, 1-3) vs only one measurement for two sensor systems (1-2)

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603380
01/11/17 06:07 PM
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I have tried to compute a possible timer resolution :

With a 10 MHz dedicated chip (1 measure per cycle), we should divide by 88*3 to get the number of scans per second of a single sensor : 37kHz. 26us resolution timer.

At 10cm / 1s, the key travels 1mm in 0.01s : 378 units. Then, I think it is possible to get a quite good resolution of a bottom triggering with nowadays technology.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603404
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I used to play that sonatina (not that fast) on a Kawai CL35 and it the piano was not the limit, but me. Of course it was easier on a real upright piano. I didn't try on a grand.
Anyway, for instance in Hungarian Rhapsody 2 by Liszt, or La Campanella, I could manage the parts with fast repetitions (perhaps not that fast) both in grands and uprights, I do not think that upright repetition system is a limitation. It isn't true you have to release the key on an upright piano to play again, they have a different escapement system, perhaps not as good as a grand.

Look at this video of my very old, unregulated, out of tune, 1920's Zimmerman Upright: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3hv_9fPK-k

On the other hand, on a Kawai CL35, one has to release the key almost completely to play again, but if the player doesn't try to make the keys reach the bottom, repetition can be managed.


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: newer player] #2603509
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Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
What puzzle me is the justfication of the top triggering (I understand a 2 sensors mode)


I wonder about this also. Some other potential benefits of 3 sensors (or not)

- Maybe it is important to have sensor 1 be close to initial key stroke for precise velocity measurement

- Three sensors could allow additional precision and error correction on normal key strokes as there are three measurements(1-2, 2-3, 1-3) vs only one measurement for two sensor systems (1-2)

It's an attempt to mimic the behaviour of an acoustic action. That's all.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603515
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Here's somebody's two finger drumming test/personal opinion about the Roland FP30 i.e. the PHA4 Standard action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoNQVnxbHG8&feature=youtu.be&t=9m5s

(And the video is a nice overview of the device in general.)

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603516
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Other than the sensor array the mechanical design of the action of the dp determines speed to a large extent also I imagine - have not read posts so far complaining of a lack of speed on any of the pianos released after 2015 that we looked at before purchasing our current Roland HP605 - most of the findings posted were more to do with touch weight and the comparative feel of white and black keys.
Possibly because the selection of people choosing digitals, and then higher end digitals is still smaller than the number of people who go for an acoustic?

The (initial) touch weight of the PHA-50 action is slightly heavy ( 65 grams ) but it lightens up after initial touch - perhaps this feel is what put Miyuji Kaneko's play a little off.

The V Piano's action PHA-III is a generation behind the current PHA-50 action. ( PHA-III PHA-IV then PHA-50 ) and I have read plenty of grumbles about the PHA-III and IV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=GPJP65EMK50 on Roland PHA-50 action ( current HP and LX series, DP603, FP90 )



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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2603527
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Here's somebody's two finger drumming test/personal opinion about the Roland FP30 i.e. the PHA4 Standard action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoNQVnxbHG8&feature=youtu.be&t=9m5s (And the video is a nice overview of the device in general.)

Yes, this is one of the better user reviews of the FP-30. Very straight forward and he hits many of the niggling details about the keyboard.

Re: trills, tremolos and 3-peats
After practicing trills, tremolos and 3-peats yesterday on my FP-30, I went down to the local store and tried doing the same on several uprights and grands. Compared to the FP-30 / PHA4 Standard - it was so, so, so much easier to do all those things on the acoustics I tried (upright or grand). Even on my old Hardman-Peck upright, all those things are just easier to do.

The FP-30 can do them, it's just easier on the acoustics. I guess the question is, compared to the acoustics how do the digital pianos in the US$1,000 -$3,000 fair?


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: spanishbuddha] #2603544
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha

It's an attempt to mimic the behaviour of an acoustic action. That's all.

If we want to copy the behaviour of an acoustic action, we have to put a sensor at the point where the dampers are off the strings and a velocity sensor at the escapement point.

Since we can't measure the velocity with one switch sensor, we use two sensors as closed as possible... but not two much (timer resolution, risk of getting an uneven touch if some sensor points move).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/12/17 01:27 PM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603560
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I could make a video of the cp4 doing incredibly fast same key repetition if anyone wanted a demo of it, I have to wait until I get it back from yamaha though as its being repaired, one of the keys became loose a while back, moves from left to right too much basically, nothing to do with me pressing the key too many times I must add.

Last edited by mwf; 01/12/17 10:04 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: ando] #2604411
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Originally Posted by ando
The new Casio GP300/500 action is extremely fast. There was a video posted here that showed it being hit with a mechanical hammer and it was able to do something crazy like 20 notes per second. I'm sure Martha Argerich could get her Scarlatti done on that - but it helps a lot if you are Martha Argerich!


I've been searching for that video you mentioned (20 notes per second). The closest I have found is this video, which does not actually demonstrate it, but the Casio rep explains: "it will actually track at well over 20 repetitions per second":

https://youtu.be/4G_cAZv6ccE?t=5m16s

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604522
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Originally Posted by agent8698
That is why I am curious about the Nord Piano 3, because Nord writes this on their website:

Extended Triggering Range
The new keyboard technology makes both top and bottom triggering possible, resulting in amazing control when playing percussively as well as pianissimo with the keys half-pressed down.


There is a video that shows this 'bottom triggering' in action:

https://youtu.be/9_YAH3ceiYQ?t=10m28s


So I'm still not sure what they mean by "top triggering" but from the video my best guess is it means: when you lift the key completely during a fast repetition, the damper comes down and you don't get a sustain effect (top triggering); when you lift the key only partially (as in to the letoff) the damper stays up so the repetition is sustained.

However, I just tried this on the MP11 and it does exactly this as well, so maybe that's not what Nord is talking about?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604568
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I don't think so: in "top triggering", there is the verb to trigger, then to start a note. It seems that it should deals with the use of the first or the second sensor to start a note. The manual explain the use of the top triggering : to permit high velocity notes. For such notes, starting a timer on the first sensor enhance the resolution.

The sustain effect has no relationship with what is explained in the manual.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604616
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I don't think what you said is any different from what I said actually. If you play the repeat from the top sensor each time (raising the key completely) your repeated note will not sustain because the damper will have time to drop and mute the string between repeats.

If you play the repetition from the middle sensor (only partially lifting the key between repeats) your repeated notes will have a sustain effect applied just as on an AP because the damper won't drop onto the string between note presses.

That effect does "rely on using the first or second sensor to trigger" the repetition. But again I'm just guessing, I just don't think what you said is incompatible with the description above.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604619
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I would agree if the manual told a word about dampers (or use the terms "top/bottom dampering").

And the manual talk about high velocities to justify top triggering. This case has no relationship with dampers. Not even fast repetition : bottom triggering is the only mode related to fast repetition.... according to the manual.

About the dampers : on a normal 3 sensors keyboard, the dampers are controlled by the top sensor. I find no need to change it. Perhaps you want a "delayed dampering" to simulate the absence of dampers with a fast repetition. It should be named "delayed dampering" or whatever you want, but I don't think "bottom triggering" is the right term (according to the manuel, it is the only mode which is related to fast repetitions).

--

I don't say what you described is not relevant, but it don't match with what I have read in the manual about "top triggering".

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/15/17 09:47 AM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604633
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In that case I'm a bit at a loss as to what the distinction is. You're going by the manual, I'm going by the video but neither seems satisfactory. I assume the keybed scanner is tracking all 88 notes in rapid sequence anyways, and needs to account for key off on both middle and top sensors in order to determine whether to strike a new note (unless you have set it to sound on midi velocity 1 i suppose) so what more could it do? Is it just a fancy way to say it is 3 sensor in the first place?


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604640
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You are right about the fact that a rapid scanning makes a "top triggering" unusefull even with high velocity. My quick calculus proves it, but I have assumed a dedicaded chip (then 1 scan per clock cycle). I don't know about the Nord architecture. If the CPU is generic and has other duties.... I don't know. A simple switch scan is easy on a dedicated chip - just triggering and halting timers), but needs many instructions on a classical CPU.

I have checked the video, it only deals with what we can have with 3 sensors (no dampers when the key does't go to the top). I hear a decreasing volume when the key is fully released (not a sharp one, but a decrease).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/15/17 10:53 AM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: mwf] #2604642
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Originally Posted by mwf
I have a yamaha cp4, the key repetition on that is the best I have ever experienced on a digital piano, it allows extremely rapid note repetition, faster than the clp585 they do, and much better than any roland I have played on, they cant actually perform rapid note repetitions properly I must add, the keyboard stumbles when you try properly, I have a roland rd800 and its not very good, for example I play Kapustin's concert etude no.3 on both keyboards and the cp4 allows effortless key repetition, which is crucial for this piece, the roland cant keep up with the demand and it does not play all notes.


I can play fast repetitions on my CP4, but what I've noticed is that when I play the same passages on my baby grand, which is in good regulation, they feel far more comfortable to play, as if there's an almost imperceptible kick coming back into my hands from the repetition. It has made it easier to refine my technique on the acoustic. On the CP4 it feels more like I'm trying to get my hands on and off the keys fast enough to retrigger that 3rd sensor. I'm not unhappy with the CP4, though. I've only run into this issue playing technical exercises where I'm trying to go as fast as possible. For normal playing both are dreamy enough for me.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: David Farley] #2604684
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Originally Posted by David Farley
I can play fast repetitions on my CP4, but what I've noticed is that when I play the same passages on my baby grand, which is in good regulation, they feel far more comfortable to play, as if there's an almost imperceptible kick coming back into my hands from the repetition.


Thank you, this is what I hope digital piano manufacturers are studying. Progress has been slow, and demand from customers has been low: the Kawai MP11, for example, held in high regard on these forums, is widely praised as having one of the best digital piano actions (yet it is weak when it comes to fast, repeated notes). I would love to be proven wrong: can anybody post a video of fast, repeated notes on the MP11? People seem to think that nobody cares about fast, repeated notes, except for professional pianists (who don't play digital pianos).

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604691
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Originally Posted by agent8698
People seem to think that nobody cares about fast, repeated notes, except for professional pianists (who don't play digital pianos).


Lots of professional pianists play digital pianos. Just go visit the Keyboard Corner, or any of the other sites that have forums that skew towards jazz musicians and musicians who gig. And these players are often just as technically proficient as pianists you'll find elsewhere. Which means you'll find people talking about the same action concerns people have here. This particular forum skews towards classical playing.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: David Farley] #2604713
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Originally Posted by David Farley
Lots of professional pianists play digital pianos.
Yes, my mistake, I meant professional classical pianists: if they play digital pianos at all, it is incidental, tangential, never a primary instrument, never used for technique building.

Originally Posted by David Farley
Just go visit the Keyboard Corner, or any of the other sites that have forums that skew towards jazz musicians and musicians who gig. And these players are often just as technically proficient as pianists you'll find elsewhere. Which means you'll find people talking about the same action concerns people have here. This particular forum skews towards classical playing.

Thank you, I didn't know about the Keyboard Corner: http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/18/1/The_Keyboard_Corner

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604718
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Originally Posted by agent8698
Progress has been slow, and demand from customers has been low: the Kawai MP11, for example, held in high regard on these forums, is widely praised as having one of the best digital piano actions (yet it is weak when it comes to fast, repeated notes). I would love to be proven wrong: can anybody post a video of fast, repeated notes on the MP11? People seem to think that nobody cares about fast, repeated notes, except for professional pianists (who don't play digital pianos).

Personally, I also don't care very much either, since the limit for fast repeated notes in my case is me, not my piano smile but I always like these thought experiments, so I made a real world experiment out of it (although not video) with the GFII on my CA97:

I tried to produce the fastest note repetitions I could get (with still hearable repetitions). I deliberately write "produce" not "play", as my technique to producing those has nothing to do with actual piano playing and was neither very musical nor very accurate. I recorded this as a MIDI track which I analyzed on the PC:

The shortest separation I managed between two notes was 16 ticks. Ticks convert into milliseconds according to this formula: 60000 / (BPM * PPQN) where BPM is the time signature of the MIDI track (120 in my case) and PPQN is the pulse per quarter note value of the MIDI track (96 in my case). So that gives us a separation between two audible notes of:

60000 / (120 * 96) * 16 = 83.3333333ms

which in turn means exactly 12 repeated notes per second.

And to be honest: I think if I had managed to move my finger/hand faster, I would have been able to get an even faster repetition. I did not get the feeling that I was nearing the end of the sensor's or DP's capabilities.

Now, if 12+ notes per second is "fast enough" and if someone with Martha's skill would be able to reliably and musically get this speed out of the GFII or not is anyone's guess...

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604770
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And I daresay that many acoustic grands would have difficulty meeting Argerich's standards.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2610221
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I've managed slightly sub 0.05 second gaps on gfII action according to the midi output 'note on' timings. Only for three notes but that's a human limitation, i.e. sweeping 4,3,2 past the key end. The notes are really starting to blur into one though at that speed, unless you turn all the resonances etc off and play on the treble.

Those are essentially being played from the letoff though, so gf1 may fare worse in this respect as it's middle sensor triggers a little higher up.

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This is slightly off topic but I wish I would have spent more time on the Nord 3 especially after having seen the video in the initial post.


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I've been following the thread about the new Roland stage piano with interest (RD-2000 with PHA-50 action). Yesterday, forum member 'brooster' posted 2 links in that thread, which each contain a demonstration of fast, repeated notes played on the RD-2000.

Not bad!

video 1, RD-2000, fast repeated notes
video 2, RD-2000, fast repeated notes

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619563
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@agent8698: Can you demonstrate the MP11 being slow at repetitions?

@JoBert and others: It is nice that you have reproduced fast repetitions on these actions, but what is equally important to know, apart from the time between notes, is how many millimeters the key has to travel up from the bottom before it can repeat. On a well-regulated grand or even upright, you can repeat after lifting the key ever so slightly.

The next thing to know is whether the sensor system and logic is clever enough to understand that when you play a repetition after just lifting the key a little bit, the speed of the hey travelling down and eventually speed of the "hammer" will be, or is allowed to be, a lot slower. Meaning a softer hammer blow. This allows fast, repeated, _soft_ notes, such as a soft, fast trill. This is harder on an upright, but still. I find that it is very hard on most digitals.

Another thing to emulate is inertia. You don't have to press the key all the way to the bottom or even until all the phases of the action until let-off has been completed. The only thing that matters is speed. If you press the key very fast but very shallow (a short, soft, staccato tap for instance), and because of inertia an acoustic action will still go through all the phases. This allows for refined technique and "playing on the second keyboard" as some technicians call it, playing "superficially" with as little effort as possible.

Of course, digital actions measure the speed of the key in some ways. I just find that they don't do it where it matters, not very well at least.

And as someone else wrote, an acoustic action gives a subtle feedback on key return (and at the point of let-off) which allows for fast, soft, shallow trills.


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It would be nice if some serious reviewer made some sort of repeatable mechanical tests. After all, you could test and measure in detail all sorts of scenarios, repetitions, trills, key return speed, minimal key lift, inertia simulation, aftertouch with a "robotic finger" and by measuring the sound response also. All digital pianos could be compared on equal terms and documented. In fact, you could test acoustic pianos as well and objectively compare some aspects of a great Steinway or Yamaha piano action with that of a good digital. And the makers of digital pianos would have something to aim for and to compete on. In fact, if some of the review sites or forums with many readers did this, it could drive the whole development and competition if done right. No digital piano maker would like to get 2 stars out of 10 in action rating on one of their top digitals.

Of course something similar could be done for many aspects of the action and sound of a piano, some of this is done in http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2566440/1.html



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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2619628
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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
@agent8698: Can you demonstrate the MP11 being slow at repetitions?

@JoBert and others: It is nice that you have reproduced fast repetitions on these actions, but what is equally important to know, apart from the time between notes, is how many millimeters the key has to travel up from the bottom before it can repeat. On a well-regulated grand or even upright, you can repeat after lifting the key ever so slightly.


Always happy to provide quant data.

This was measured on C5 key on my MP11 with digital micrometer calipers. It's as precise as I can get without disassembling the action. So the accuracy may vary, but I used the same methodology for every measurement so the delta should be insignificant between tests. Measurements are taken at the forward-most end of the key.

--Top of white key to letoff: 8.17mm.
--Top of white key to note strike point: 8.75mm.
--Top of white key to bottom of travel: 11.14mm (without excessively compressing felts)
--Distance above letoff point that allows for 100% strike: 0.20-0.30mm.

Notes:

1. Note that the strike point is well above the bottoming out of the key (it's just beyond letoff, where it should be).

2. On the MP11, some notes will reliably strike at the point of letoff maximum resistance, but most won't. You don't even really need to "lift" your finger above letoff to achieve a reliable strike, you just need to relax your finger ever so slightly. Don't get caught up on the 0.20mm distance (that is so small). Note that the GF2 action does "correct" this though.

3. On the Roland PHA-III/Ivory-Feel/PHA-IV actions I've played, the letoff is significantly higher than on the Kawais (it feels like it engages at 50% of travel). On the grands I've played, the letoff is closer to the Kawai.

4. The more I play between my MP11 and grand APs, the more impressed I am with the GF action. I find that I am making the exact same mistakes between the actions when it comes to fast repetitions. If I miss a note on the MP11 because I don't let off enough, I miss the same note on the grand. If I take effort/concentration to strike the note more cleanly on the MP11, it takes exactly the same effort on the grand. While the actions do feel slightly different, the MP11->expensive grand is 90% more similar than any other action comparison I've tried (between digitals, and especially between acoustics).

That's all I've got.



Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619670
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Nicely done, Gombessa!

Another interesting number (that is very hard to measure) would be the key return speed from bottom to various points: let-off, strike point, halfway point, full return.

It would be interesting to see the same numbers for

- Grand Feel II
- PHA-50
- RM3 II (VPC1)
- Some Yamaha actions

Anyone? smile


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619678
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Other than seeing MIDI note on/off timings, that sounds like it would be difficult to accurately measure and reproduce.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2619691
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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
@agent8698: Can you demonstrate the MP11 being slow at repetitions?


No. I responded to a Craigslist ad selling a used MP11. Everybody on these forums seemed to unanimously praise the action of the MP11, so I thought, let me take this opportunity to play it.

Fast, repeated notes were difficult for me. I tried to like it, but after 90 minutes I decided I didn't like the resistance that was standing in the way of what my fingers wanted to do, like a middleman who doesn't belong there, who says: "Hey! Slow down! You gotta go through me first! There's a speed limit here, you know! You can't just play as fast as you want!".

Of course, my technique may be faulty. But when I see everybody here praise the MP11, with no dissent, I ask myself: why are there no youtube videos of an MP11 playing fast repeated notes (accurately, or in any other way)? How about a Mozart sonata allegro with some turns, trills, and other ornaments played in tempo, correctly, with no apparent difficulty? Instead, the demo videos I have seen avoid such material. Why?

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2619695
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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
It would be nice if some serious reviewer made some sort of repeatable mechanical tests. After all, you could test and measure in detail all sorts of scenarios, repetitions, trills, key return speed, minimal key lift, inertia simulation, aftertouch with a "robotic finger" and by measuring the sound response also. All digital pianos could be compared on equal terms and documented. In fact, you could test acoustic pianos as well and objectively compare some aspects of a great Steinway or Yamaha piano action with that of a good digital.


This could make sense on a digital piano, but unfortunately makes zero sense on an acoustic one. Through regulation - Aftertouch can be adjusted. Key dip can be adjusted, spring tension can be adjusted. Letoff can be adjusted. Inertia varies from model to model (and even piano to piano). Repetition speed is probably also adjustable to the extent that other parameters I've already mentioned affect it (ever play a piano with the springs set too strongly? repeats great, feels like a total workout to play). Too much or too little friction can change action behavior and touch weight.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619706
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Originally Posted by agent8698
I ask myself: why are there no youtube videos of an MP11 playing fast repeated notes (accurately, or in any other way)? How about a Mozart sonata allegro with some turns, trills, and other ornaments played in tempo, correctly, with no apparent difficulty? Instead, the demo videos I have seen avoid such material. Why?


I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, since I was searching high and low for MP11 videos and demonstrations in the weeks prior to buying. I think the MP11 is such a niche product that there really aren't a lot of videos of it out there, whether it's about fast repetition or legato or whatever. It's essentially for pianists who need a stage piano with action above all else, and are willing to accept few on-board sounds and ginormous weight in order to get it. That's a small market.

I really don't think there's a conspiracy here ("Oh we would have posted all these fast repetition videos from our MP11s, but the action doesn't let us do that, so they don't exist."). There just aren't a lot of MP11 videos out there, period.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619811
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Originally Posted by agent8698
...why are there no youtube videos of an MP11 playing fast repeated notes (accurately, or in any other way)?


While it may not disprove your notion that the MP11's action is hampered by slow key repetition, I believe the video below from Juanma Varela does demonstrate playing rather quickly, and with accuracy.



Perhaps you could contact this individual directly to gauge his thoughts regarding key repetition speed?

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Kawai James] #2619826
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by agent8698
...why are there no youtube videos of an MP11 playing fast repeated notes (accurately, or in any other way)?


While it may not disprove your notion that the MP11's action is hampered by slow key repetition, I believe the video below from Juanma Varela does demonstrate playing rather quickly, and with accuracy.



Perhaps you could contact this individual directly to gauge his thoughts regarding key repetition speed?

Kind regards,
James
x


Thank you Kawai James. I have seen that video before, but I'm glad you reminded me of it. That guy is obviously a skilled pianist, and he knows how to play the MP11 extremely well. I was impressed at how good it sounded, although I think more dynamic variation (by the pianist) would make the MP11 sound perhaps even better, as suggested by the score, which includes everything from ppp to fff: http://imslp.org/wiki/Moments_musicaux,_Op.16_(Rachmaninoff,_Sergei)

I did not find any obvious way of contacting the pianist Juanma Varela.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2620162
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Physis H1 (Fatar tp40wood) fast enough?

[video:youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=IjH72uCO4CQ[/video]

Last edited by T71; 03/04/17 06:10 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: T71] #2620170
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Inconclusive since there are no fast repeated notes in that piece at all. You could play that piece on any keyboard.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2620172
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Where is that video of the robot rolling on the gp500? The robot was doing repetitions faster than humanely possible on some chopsticks piece. I think it was compared with an acoustic as well. I do remember seeing it one time but it just seemed to disappear or was I dreaming?

Last edited by Lam Chu; 03/04/17 01:48 PM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698613
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Of the following keyboards, does anyone know if any of them can perform 16th notes at 90BPM?

Studiologic SL88 Grand
Kawai MP7
Kawai VPC1

I'm well aware of the pluses and minuses of these units in all other categories, minus the ability to play one locally. I'm trying to find a keyboard which can handle 16ths @ 90BPM like my old M-audio Keystation Pro 88, which is now useless junk.

Thanks!


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698619
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The Yamaha P155 seems to be able to keep up with fast repetitions...



The same kind of action (GH) is and has been used in numerous other Yamaha models (P255, CP40, CP50, CP300, CP33). Though most people prefer their higher end actions, i.e. the ones in the CP1/CP5 and CP4.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698724
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My PX-350 can do 4 notes per beat, at 90 bpm. It's easy two-handed, and reasonable with one hand. Using two hands (one finger on each), I can get 4 notes per beat at tempo 120. I'm the limit, not the keyboard.

While the PX-350's action ("Tri-Sensor Scaled Hammer Action") is three-sensor, I haven't heard anyone call it a speed demon.

. . . Have you tested any of the recent DP's ?


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698729
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MikeRoePhonics,

Any keyboard should be able to handle 16ths at 90bpm - it's hardly fast?

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698751
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There is a clear interaction between playing technique and instrument that comes into play here, and I think fundamentally it's impossible to separate the two sufficiently to conclusively answer the question without using a machine for testing. Martha Argerich has one of if not the finest piano techniques in the world, and I'm confident that she would be able to play that Scarlatti on all high-end DPs at that tempo. BUT...I also think she would find it more difficult. An instrument action is not just a single hard limit but a graduated response. You may get a repetition every X ms, but if you human noise (i.e. imperfect technique) to the time difference, then the closer you to the hard limit, the more often you will not coincide with optimal key return timing (i.e. you won't precisely X ms gaps always, sometimes you'll try to play early before the key has sufficiently returned) and the more often you will play a note without it sounding, which in itself will further disrupt your timing.

So there is a hard limit, but there is in practice a graduated response as you approach that limit. I think DPs are capable of fast repetitions, but I also think that fast repetitions are more difficult to successfully carry out on DPs. At least, that's been my experience.

It's also worth being in mind that not all expensive acoustic grand pianos are equal in this regard either. For example, that Glenn Gould - another master of fast repetitions - actually had his pianos specially prepared to allow fast repetitions.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698863
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Thanks for the replies. I posted here last year asking about fast repetitions and basically narrowed it down to the Studiologic SL88 Grand, Kawai MP7 and Kawai VPC1. I've looked at all the other commonly discussed 88 key hammer action models on the market.

Overall, the MP7 seems like the best fit, but I haven't played any of the above three boards, only recommendations from various forums, including this one.

The 88-key hammer action boards I've owned include:
- M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 (from 2005)
- Roland Juno DS88
- Studiologic SL-990 XP

The 88-key hammer action boards I've played include:
- Casio Privia (forgot the name, but all Privia's have the same action, I believe)
- Yamaha MOX8
- Yamaha KX8

Of the above 6 boards, I liked the SL-990 XP the most, with the Keystation Pro 88 second, despite its general dislike among players. Both boards had component failures so they're no longer options. I play sampled pianos as well as synths and drums so a general-use action is desired.

Thanks for the help!



Last edited by MikeRoePhonics; 12/21/17 08:24 PM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698871
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To see quick repetitions on some other models, check this video at 18:05



and this one at 2:23



He gets good repetition out of the Roland Ivory Feel G despite a subjectively sluggish feel, and also out of the ES110, but struggles more with the Casio (showing again that triple sensor is not directly tied to how fast you can repeat a hit... it's actually more about how quietly you can repeat a hit).

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Maartin] #2699127
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Originally Posted by Maartin
MikeRoePhonics,

Any keyboard should be able to handle 16ths at 90bpm - it's hardly fast?

+1

Any half-decent DP should be able to handle this.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2699142
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Yes, the Yamaha P155


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778624
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Sorry for reviving an old thread, it just happened to be on exact same issue I want to clarify. Today I went to buy the Roland FP-90. Since today I had the money on me, I tested it much more thoroughly than the previous time. I found no problem with the DP except for the fact that I wasn't able to play a fast repetition on any key. Most of the notes was "chewed" by the DP. Now one thing I must tell in advance, I haven't played any piano for ages, so my skill right now is close to non-existent. Still, I played a lot of fast repetition on the acoustic pianos in my life and never had any problems with them. Even without practice I would not expect myself to fail so miserably. So at first I thought that probably the DP in the showroom was faulty. But then I tried Roland's HP pianos with the same PHA50 action and the problem persisted. Then I tried pianos with different actions like FP-30 and FP-80 and still wasn't able to reproduce a single half-decent fast repetition. At this point I felt a bit of relief since it became obvious that it's not only the piano I was going to buy that is faulty. My lack of ability must play a huge role in my failure. After that I went to another shop and tried Kawai ES8 and Casio PX-160. The actions felt completely different from the Roland (I prefer PHA50 more) but I still wasn't able to play a repetition. So yeah, I must be either my lack of skill or it's really a shortcoming of nearly all of the DP. I really hope it's not the latter. To me it seemed that the rebound of the key is just not fast enough and I had the same feeling on any piano I played today.

Last edited by Nifrigel; 11/06/18 03:10 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Nifrigel] #2778626
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Originally Posted by Nifrigel
Now one thing I must tell in advance, I haven't played any piano for ages, so my skill right now is close to non-existent. Still, I played a lot of fast repetition on the acoustic pianos in my life and never had any problems with them. Even without practice I would not expect myself to fail so miserably.


Speaking as someone who also came back from not playing, I think you are expecting too much. There should be no problem with any of the pianos you mentioned.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778631
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I have an FP-90 and have no problem with repeated notes. I use the same technique as on a grand. The FP-90 is certainly up to the challenge of pieces like Scarlatti's d minor sonata or Ravel's Alborado Del Gracioso or Scarbo.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Nifrigel] #2778647
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Originally Posted by Nifrigel
...So yeah, I must be either my lack of skill or it's really a shortcoming of nearly all of the DP. I really hope it's not the latter. To me it seemed that the rebound of the key is just not fast enough and I had the same feeling on any piano I played today.


Nothing wrong with high end DP actions - this guy seems to do fairly okay with the previous gen Roland action on a JunoDS...

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778667
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Thanks for your replies, that's motivating!

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Lam] #2778734
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Originally Posted by Lam
Where is that video of the robot rolling on the gp500? The robot was doing repetitions faster than humanely possible on some chopsticks piece. I think it was compared with an acoustic as well. I do remember seeing it one time but it just seemed to disappear or was I dreaming?

Here it is:

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778744
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I just re-read this thread with interest. I noticed that several posts included videos of Billy Joel's song "Angry Young Man", which demonstrates a two-handed rapid note repetition. This two-handed technique is not what I had in mind when I started the thread. When I said "fast, repeated notes", that was short for "fast, repeated notes played by one hand". The distinction is important, because using two hands, as in "Angry Young Man", brings in additional pianistic resources, which are able to overcome the resistance of a less-responsive action. The single hand does not have that luxury (and by far most musical examples of rapid same-note repetition require a single hand to play it). Therefore, I feel that the single hand is the benchmark (or should be) for any tests or verdicts regarding rapid same-note repetition.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778753
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Originally Posted by agent8698
I just re-read this thread with interest. I noticed that several posts included videos of Billy Joel's song "Angry Young Man", which demonstrates a two-handed rapid note repetition. This two-handed technique is not what I had in mind when I started the thread. When I said "fast, repeated notes", that was short for "fast, repeated notes played by one hand". The distinction is important, because using two hands, as in "Angry Young Man", brings in additional pianistic resources, which are able to overcome the resistance of a less-responsive action. The single hand does not have that luxury (and by far most musical examples of rapid same-note repetition require a single hand to play it). Therefore, I feel that the single hand is the benchmark (or should be) for any tests or verdicts regarding rapid same-note repetition.

I agree. Angry Young Man is a poor choice to measure repetition. I've been able to play that on all but the most terrible actions - both acoustic and digital. Playing rapid repeats with a single hand requires a lot more from the action. It should be the standard by which repetition is measured.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778768
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If the question is, does the action return fast enough to re-strike it at a certain rate, then whether it takes one or two hands to do it shouldn't matter, as the key comes back at the same rate regardless, it doesn't know whether it's being struck with two hands or one. The percentage of that two-handed rate you can achieve with just one hand is probably more a factor of the individual player's ability/technique than the return rate of the action.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2778772
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both the mp11 and es8 mp7se allow the fast notes repetitions as per Scarlatti's sonata.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: ando] #2778778
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by agent8698
I just re-read this thread with interest. I noticed that several posts included videos of Billy Joel's song "Angry Young Man", which demonstrates a two-handed rapid note repetition. This two-handed technique is not what I had in mind when I started the thread. When I said "fast, repeated notes", that was short for "fast, repeated notes played by one hand". The distinction is important, because using two hands, as in "Angry Young Man", brings in additional pianistic resources, which are able to overcome the resistance of a less-responsive action. The single hand does not have that luxury (and by far most musical examples of rapid same-note repetition require a single hand to play it). Therefore, I feel that the single hand is the benchmark (or should be) for any tests or verdicts regarding rapid same-note repetition.

I agree. Angry Young Man is a poor choice to measure repetition. I've been able to play that on all but the most terrible actions - both acoustic and digital. Playing rapid repeats with a single hand requires a lot more from the action. It should be the standard by which repetition is measured.

Alright - does Campanella count on an LX-17 PHA50 action (same as the FP-90)?


Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: jamiecw] #2778783
11/06/18 03:04 PM
11/06/18 03:04 PM
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Tacoma, WA
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agent8698 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by jamiecw

Alright - does Campanella count on an LX-17 PHA50 action (same as the FP-90)?


Yes, it does! That is one of only a handful of rare and exceptional videos on the Internet, showing fast repeated notes (one-handed) on a digital piano (in my first post of this thread, I posted another example of that, with that same Japanese pianist, this time playing Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 on the Roland V-Piano Grand).



Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: anotherscott] #2778784
11/06/18 03:05 PM
11/06/18 03:05 PM
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Exactly. If we're rating or evaluating a piano we ought not be rating the pianist.
Originally Posted by anotherscott
If the question is, does the action return fast enough to re-strike it at a certain rate, then whether it takes one or two hands to do it shouldn't matter, as the key comes back at the same rate regardless, it doesn't know whether it's being struck with two hands or one. The percentage of that two-handed rate you can achieve with just one hand is probably more a factor of the individual player's ability/technique than the return rate of the action.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2779275
11/08/18 12:37 PM
11/08/18 12:37 PM
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I checked this specifically for Kawai MP7 as the controller with Ravenscroft 275 as the plugin. It is possible to achieve a very similar repetition.

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