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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603380
01/11/17 06:07 PM
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I have tried to compute a possible timer resolution :

With a 10 MHz dedicated chip (1 measure per cycle), we should divide by 88*3 to get the number of scans per second of a single sensor : 37kHz. 26us resolution timer.

At 10cm / 1s, the key travels 1mm in 0.01s : 378 units. Then, I think it is possible to get a quite good resolution of a bottom triggering with nowadays technology.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603404
01/11/17 07:15 PM
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I used to play that sonatina (not that fast) on a Kawai CL35 and it the piano was not the limit, but me. Of course it was easier on a real upright piano. I didn't try on a grand.
Anyway, for instance in Hungarian Rhapsody 2 by Liszt, or La Campanella, I could manage the parts with fast repetitions (perhaps not that fast) both in grands and uprights, I do not think that upright repetition system is a limitation. It isn't true you have to release the key on an upright piano to play again, they have a different escapement system, perhaps not as good as a grand.

Look at this video of my very old, unregulated, out of tune, 1920's Zimmerman Upright: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3hv_9fPK-k

On the other hand, on a Kawai CL35, one has to release the key almost completely to play again, but if the player doesn't try to make the keys reach the bottom, repetition can be managed.


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: newer player] #2603509
01/12/17 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by newer player
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
What puzzle me is the justfication of the top triggering (I understand a 2 sensors mode)


I wonder about this also. Some other potential benefits of 3 sensors (or not)

- Maybe it is important to have sensor 1 be close to initial key stroke for precise velocity measurement

- Three sensors could allow additional precision and error correction on normal key strokes as there are three measurements(1-2, 2-3, 1-3) vs only one measurement for two sensor systems (1-2)

It's an attempt to mimic the behaviour of an acoustic action. That's all.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603515
01/12/17 05:03 AM
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Here's somebody's two finger drumming test/personal opinion about the Roland FP30 i.e. the PHA4 Standard action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoNQVnxbHG8&feature=youtu.be&t=9m5s

(And the video is a nice overview of the device in general.)

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603516
01/12/17 05:28 AM
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Other than the sensor array the mechanical design of the action of the dp determines speed to a large extent also I imagine - have not read posts so far complaining of a lack of speed on any of the pianos released after 2015 that we looked at before purchasing our current Roland HP605 - most of the findings posted were more to do with touch weight and the comparative feel of white and black keys.
Possibly because the selection of people choosing digitals, and then higher end digitals is still smaller than the number of people who go for an acoustic?

The (initial) touch weight of the PHA-50 action is slightly heavy ( 65 grams ) but it lightens up after initial touch - perhaps this feel is what put Miyuji Kaneko's play a little off.

The V Piano's action PHA-III is a generation behind the current PHA-50 action. ( PHA-III PHA-IV then PHA-50 ) and I have read plenty of grumbles about the PHA-III and IV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=GPJP65EMK50 on Roland PHA-50 action ( current HP and LX series, DP603, FP90 )



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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2603527
01/12/17 06:25 AM
01/12/17 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Here's somebody's two finger drumming test/personal opinion about the Roland FP30 i.e. the PHA4 Standard action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoNQVnxbHG8&feature=youtu.be&t=9m5s (And the video is a nice overview of the device in general.)

Yes, this is one of the better user reviews of the FP-30. Very straight forward and he hits many of the niggling details about the keyboard.

Re: trills, tremolos and 3-peats
After practicing trills, tremolos and 3-peats yesterday on my FP-30, I went down to the local store and tried doing the same on several uprights and grands. Compared to the FP-30 / PHA4 Standard - it was so, so, so much easier to do all those things on the acoustics I tried (upright or grand). Even on my old Hardman-Peck upright, all those things are just easier to do.

The FP-30 can do them, it's just easier on the acoustics. I guess the question is, compared to the acoustics how do the digital pianos in the US$1,000 -$3,000 fair?


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: spanishbuddha] #2603544
01/12/17 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha

It's an attempt to mimic the behaviour of an acoustic action. That's all.

If we want to copy the behaviour of an acoustic action, we have to put a sensor at the point where the dampers are off the strings and a velocity sensor at the escapement point.

Since we can't measure the velocity with one switch sensor, we use two sensors as closed as possible... but not two much (timer resolution, risk of getting an uneven touch if some sensor points move).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/12/17 01:27 PM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2603560
01/12/17 09:02 AM
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I could make a video of the cp4 doing incredibly fast same key repetition if anyone wanted a demo of it, I have to wait until I get it back from yamaha though as its being repaired, one of the keys became loose a while back, moves from left to right too much basically, nothing to do with me pressing the key too many times I must add.

Last edited by mwf; 01/12/17 10:04 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: ando] #2604411
01/14/17 03:53 PM
01/14/17 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
The new Casio GP300/500 action is extremely fast. There was a video posted here that showed it being hit with a mechanical hammer and it was able to do something crazy like 20 notes per second. I'm sure Martha Argerich could get her Scarlatti done on that - but it helps a lot if you are Martha Argerich!


I've been searching for that video you mentioned (20 notes per second). The closest I have found is this video, which does not actually demonstrate it, but the Casio rep explains: "it will actually track at well over 20 repetitions per second":

https://youtu.be/4G_cAZv6ccE?t=5m16s

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604522
01/14/17 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by agent8698
That is why I am curious about the Nord Piano 3, because Nord writes this on their website:

Extended Triggering Range
The new keyboard technology makes both top and bottom triggering possible, resulting in amazing control when playing percussively as well as pianissimo with the keys half-pressed down.


There is a video that shows this 'bottom triggering' in action:

https://youtu.be/9_YAH3ceiYQ?t=10m28s


So I'm still not sure what they mean by "top triggering" but from the video my best guess is it means: when you lift the key completely during a fast repetition, the damper comes down and you don't get a sustain effect (top triggering); when you lift the key only partially (as in to the letoff) the damper stays up so the repetition is sustained.

However, I just tried this on the MP11 and it does exactly this as well, so maybe that's not what Nord is talking about?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604568
01/15/17 03:35 AM
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I don't think so: in "top triggering", there is the verb to trigger, then to start a note. It seems that it should deals with the use of the first or the second sensor to start a note. The manual explain the use of the top triggering : to permit high velocity notes. For such notes, starting a timer on the first sensor enhance the resolution.

The sustain effect has no relationship with what is explained in the manual.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604616
01/15/17 09:23 AM
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I don't think what you said is any different from what I said actually. If you play the repeat from the top sensor each time (raising the key completely) your repeated note will not sustain because the damper will have time to drop and mute the string between repeats.

If you play the repetition from the middle sensor (only partially lifting the key between repeats) your repeated notes will have a sustain effect applied just as on an AP because the damper won't drop onto the string between note presses.

That effect does "rely on using the first or second sensor to trigger" the repetition. But again I'm just guessing, I just don't think what you said is incompatible with the description above.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604619
01/15/17 09:38 AM
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I would agree if the manual told a word about dampers (or use the terms "top/bottom dampering").

And the manual talk about high velocities to justify top triggering. This case has no relationship with dampers. Not even fast repetition : bottom triggering is the only mode related to fast repetition.... according to the manual.

About the dampers : on a normal 3 sensors keyboard, the dampers are controlled by the top sensor. I find no need to change it. Perhaps you want a "delayed dampering" to simulate the absence of dampers with a fast repetition. It should be named "delayed dampering" or whatever you want, but I don't think "bottom triggering" is the right term (according to the manuel, it is the only mode which is related to fast repetitions).

--

I don't say what you described is not relevant, but it don't match with what I have read in the manual about "top triggering".

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/15/17 09:47 AM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604633
01/15/17 10:28 AM
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In that case I'm a bit at a loss as to what the distinction is. You're going by the manual, I'm going by the video but neither seems satisfactory. I assume the keybed scanner is tracking all 88 notes in rapid sequence anyways, and needs to account for key off on both middle and top sensors in order to determine whether to strike a new note (unless you have set it to sound on midi velocity 1 i suppose) so what more could it do? Is it just a fancy way to say it is 3 sensor in the first place?


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604640
01/15/17 10:45 AM
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You are right about the fact that a rapid scanning makes a "top triggering" unusefull even with high velocity. My quick calculus proves it, but I have assumed a dedicaded chip (then 1 scan per clock cycle). I don't know about the Nord architecture. If the CPU is generic and has other duties.... I don't know. A simple switch scan is easy on a dedicated chip - just triggering and halting timers), but needs many instructions on a classical CPU.

I have checked the video, it only deals with what we can have with 3 sensors (no dampers when the key does't go to the top). I hear a decreasing volume when the key is fully released (not a sharp one, but a decrease).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/15/17 10:53 AM.

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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: mwf] #2604642
01/15/17 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mwf
I have a yamaha cp4, the key repetition on that is the best I have ever experienced on a digital piano, it allows extremely rapid note repetition, faster than the clp585 they do, and much better than any roland I have played on, they cant actually perform rapid note repetitions properly I must add, the keyboard stumbles when you try properly, I have a roland rd800 and its not very good, for example I play Kapustin's concert etude no.3 on both keyboards and the cp4 allows effortless key repetition, which is crucial for this piece, the roland cant keep up with the demand and it does not play all notes.


I can play fast repetitions on my CP4, but what I've noticed is that when I play the same passages on my baby grand, which is in good regulation, they feel far more comfortable to play, as if there's an almost imperceptible kick coming back into my hands from the repetition. It has made it easier to refine my technique on the acoustic. On the CP4 it feels more like I'm trying to get my hands on and off the keys fast enough to retrigger that 3rd sensor. I'm not unhappy with the CP4, though. I've only run into this issue playing technical exercises where I'm trying to go as fast as possible. For normal playing both are dreamy enough for me.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: David Farley] #2604684
01/15/17 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by David Farley
I can play fast repetitions on my CP4, but what I've noticed is that when I play the same passages on my baby grand, which is in good regulation, they feel far more comfortable to play, as if there's an almost imperceptible kick coming back into my hands from the repetition.


Thank you, this is what I hope digital piano manufacturers are studying. Progress has been slow, and demand from customers has been low: the Kawai MP11, for example, held in high regard on these forums, is widely praised as having one of the best digital piano actions (yet it is weak when it comes to fast, repeated notes). I would love to be proven wrong: can anybody post a video of fast, repeated notes on the MP11? People seem to think that nobody cares about fast, repeated notes, except for professional pianists (who don't play digital pianos).

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604691
01/15/17 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by agent8698
People seem to think that nobody cares about fast, repeated notes, except for professional pianists (who don't play digital pianos).


Lots of professional pianists play digital pianos. Just go visit the Keyboard Corner, or any of the other sites that have forums that skew towards jazz musicians and musicians who gig. And these players are often just as technically proficient as pianists you'll find elsewhere. Which means you'll find people talking about the same action concerns people have here. This particular forum skews towards classical playing.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: David Farley] #2604713
01/15/17 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by David Farley
Lots of professional pianists play digital pianos.
Yes, my mistake, I meant professional classical pianists: if they play digital pianos at all, it is incidental, tangential, never a primary instrument, never used for technique building.

Originally Posted by David Farley
Just go visit the Keyboard Corner, or any of the other sites that have forums that skew towards jazz musicians and musicians who gig. And these players are often just as technically proficient as pianists you'll find elsewhere. Which means you'll find people talking about the same action concerns people have here. This particular forum skews towards classical playing.

Thank you, I didn't know about the Keyboard Corner: http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/18/1/The_Keyboard_Corner

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604718
01/15/17 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by agent8698
Progress has been slow, and demand from customers has been low: the Kawai MP11, for example, held in high regard on these forums, is widely praised as having one of the best digital piano actions (yet it is weak when it comes to fast, repeated notes). I would love to be proven wrong: can anybody post a video of fast, repeated notes on the MP11? People seem to think that nobody cares about fast, repeated notes, except for professional pianists (who don't play digital pianos).

Personally, I also don't care very much either, since the limit for fast repeated notes in my case is me, not my piano smile but I always like these thought experiments, so I made a real world experiment out of it (although not video) with the GFII on my CA97:

I tried to produce the fastest note repetitions I could get (with still hearable repetitions). I deliberately write "produce" not "play", as my technique to producing those has nothing to do with actual piano playing and was neither very musical nor very accurate. I recorded this as a MIDI track which I analyzed on the PC:

The shortest separation I managed between two notes was 16 ticks. Ticks convert into milliseconds according to this formula: 60000 / (BPM * PPQN) where BPM is the time signature of the MIDI track (120 in my case) and PPQN is the pulse per quarter note value of the MIDI track (96 in my case). So that gives us a separation between two audible notes of:

60000 / (120 * 96) * 16 = 83.3333333ms

which in turn means exactly 12 repeated notes per second.

And to be honest: I think if I had managed to move my finger/hand faster, I would have been able to get an even faster repetition. I did not get the feeling that I was nearing the end of the sensor's or DP's capabilities.

Now, if 12+ notes per second is "fast enough" and if someone with Martha's skill would be able to reliably and musically get this speed out of the GFII or not is anyone's guess...

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