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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604568
01/15/17 03:35 AM
01/15/17 03:35 AM
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Frédéric L Online content
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I don't think so: in "top triggering", there is the verb to trigger, then to start a note. It seems that it should deals with the use of the first or the second sensor to start a note. The manual explain the use of the top triggering : to permit high velocity notes. For such notes, starting a timer on the first sensor enhance the resolution.

The sustain effect has no relationship with what is explained in the manual.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604616
01/15/17 09:23 AM
01/15/17 09:23 AM
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I don't think what you said is any different from what I said actually. If you play the repeat from the top sensor each time (raising the key completely) your repeated note will not sustain because the damper will have time to drop and mute the string between repeats.

If you play the repetition from the middle sensor (only partially lifting the key between repeats) your repeated notes will have a sustain effect applied just as on an AP because the damper won't drop onto the string between note presses.

That effect does "rely on using the first or second sensor to trigger" the repetition. But again I'm just guessing, I just don't think what you said is incompatible with the description above.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604619
01/15/17 09:38 AM
01/15/17 09:38 AM
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I would agree if the manual told a word about dampers (or use the terms "top/bottom dampering").

And the manual talk about high velocities to justify top triggering. This case has no relationship with dampers. Not even fast repetition : bottom triggering is the only mode related to fast repetition.... according to the manual.

About the dampers : on a normal 3 sensors keyboard, the dampers are controlled by the top sensor. I find no need to change it. Perhaps you want a "delayed dampering" to simulate the absence of dampers with a fast repetition. It should be named "delayed dampering" or whatever you want, but I don't think "bottom triggering" is the right term (according to the manuel, it is the only mode which is related to fast repetitions).

--

I don't say what you described is not relevant, but it don't match with what I have read in the manual about "top triggering".

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/15/17 09:47 AM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604633
01/15/17 10:28 AM
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In that case I'm a bit at a loss as to what the distinction is. You're going by the manual, I'm going by the video but neither seems satisfactory. I assume the keybed scanner is tracking all 88 notes in rapid sequence anyways, and needs to account for key off on both middle and top sensors in order to determine whether to strike a new note (unless you have set it to sound on midi velocity 1 i suppose) so what more could it do? Is it just a fancy way to say it is 3 sensor in the first place?


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604640
01/15/17 10:45 AM
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You are right about the fact that a rapid scanning makes a "top triggering" unusefull even with high velocity. My quick calculus proves it, but I have assumed a dedicaded chip (then 1 scan per clock cycle). I don't know about the Nord architecture. If the CPU is generic and has other duties.... I don't know. A simple switch scan is easy on a dedicated chip - just triggering and halting timers), but needs many instructions on a classical CPU.

I have checked the video, it only deals with what we can have with 3 sensors (no dampers when the key does't go to the top). I hear a decreasing volume when the key is fully released (not a sharp one, but a decrease).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/15/17 10:53 AM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: mwf] #2604642
01/15/17 10:49 AM
01/15/17 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mwf
I have a yamaha cp4, the key repetition on that is the best I have ever experienced on a digital piano, it allows extremely rapid note repetition, faster than the clp585 they do, and much better than any roland I have played on, they cant actually perform rapid note repetitions properly I must add, the keyboard stumbles when you try properly, I have a roland rd800 and its not very good, for example I play Kapustin's concert etude no.3 on both keyboards and the cp4 allows effortless key repetition, which is crucial for this piece, the roland cant keep up with the demand and it does not play all notes.


I can play fast repetitions on my CP4, but what I've noticed is that when I play the same passages on my baby grand, which is in good regulation, they feel far more comfortable to play, as if there's an almost imperceptible kick coming back into my hands from the repetition. It has made it easier to refine my technique on the acoustic. On the CP4 it feels more like I'm trying to get my hands on and off the keys fast enough to retrigger that 3rd sensor. I'm not unhappy with the CP4, though. I've only run into this issue playing technical exercises where I'm trying to go as fast as possible. For normal playing both are dreamy enough for me.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: David Farley] #2604684
01/15/17 01:10 PM
01/15/17 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by David Farley
I can play fast repetitions on my CP4, but what I've noticed is that when I play the same passages on my baby grand, which is in good regulation, they feel far more comfortable to play, as if there's an almost imperceptible kick coming back into my hands from the repetition.


Thank you, this is what I hope digital piano manufacturers are studying. Progress has been slow, and demand from customers has been low: the Kawai MP11, for example, held in high regard on these forums, is widely praised as having one of the best digital piano actions (yet it is weak when it comes to fast, repeated notes). I would love to be proven wrong: can anybody post a video of fast, repeated notes on the MP11? People seem to think that nobody cares about fast, repeated notes, except for professional pianists (who don't play digital pianos).

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604691
01/15/17 01:30 PM
01/15/17 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by agent8698
People seem to think that nobody cares about fast, repeated notes, except for professional pianists (who don't play digital pianos).


Lots of professional pianists play digital pianos. Just go visit the Keyboard Corner, or any of the other sites that have forums that skew towards jazz musicians and musicians who gig. And these players are often just as technically proficient as pianists you'll find elsewhere. Which means you'll find people talking about the same action concerns people have here. This particular forum skews towards classical playing.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: David Farley] #2604713
01/15/17 02:41 PM
01/15/17 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by David Farley
Lots of professional pianists play digital pianos.
Yes, my mistake, I meant professional classical pianists: if they play digital pianos at all, it is incidental, tangential, never a primary instrument, never used for technique building.

Originally Posted by David Farley
Just go visit the Keyboard Corner, or any of the other sites that have forums that skew towards jazz musicians and musicians who gig. And these players are often just as technically proficient as pianists you'll find elsewhere. Which means you'll find people talking about the same action concerns people have here. This particular forum skews towards classical playing.

Thank you, I didn't know about the Keyboard Corner: http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/18/1/The_Keyboard_Corner

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604718
01/15/17 02:48 PM
01/15/17 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by agent8698
Progress has been slow, and demand from customers has been low: the Kawai MP11, for example, held in high regard on these forums, is widely praised as having one of the best digital piano actions (yet it is weak when it comes to fast, repeated notes). I would love to be proven wrong: can anybody post a video of fast, repeated notes on the MP11? People seem to think that nobody cares about fast, repeated notes, except for professional pianists (who don't play digital pianos).

Personally, I also don't care very much either, since the limit for fast repeated notes in my case is me, not my piano smile but I always like these thought experiments, so I made a real world experiment out of it (although not video) with the GFII on my CA97:

I tried to produce the fastest note repetitions I could get (with still hearable repetitions). I deliberately write "produce" not "play", as my technique to producing those has nothing to do with actual piano playing and was neither very musical nor very accurate. I recorded this as a MIDI track which I analyzed on the PC:

The shortest separation I managed between two notes was 16 ticks. Ticks convert into milliseconds according to this formula: 60000 / (BPM * PPQN) where BPM is the time signature of the MIDI track (120 in my case) and PPQN is the pulse per quarter note value of the MIDI track (96 in my case). So that gives us a separation between two audible notes of:

60000 / (120 * 96) * 16 = 83.3333333ms

which in turn means exactly 12 repeated notes per second.

And to be honest: I think if I had managed to move my finger/hand faster, I would have been able to get an even faster repetition. I did not get the feeling that I was nearing the end of the sensor's or DP's capabilities.

Now, if 12+ notes per second is "fast enough" and if someone with Martha's skill would be able to reliably and musically get this speed out of the GFII or not is anyone's guess...

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2604770
01/15/17 05:53 PM
01/15/17 05:53 PM
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And I daresay that many acoustic grands would have difficulty meeting Argerich's standards.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2610221
01/31/17 06:12 AM
01/31/17 06:12 AM
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I've managed slightly sub 0.05 second gaps on gfII action according to the midi output 'note on' timings. Only for three notes but that's a human limitation, i.e. sweeping 4,3,2 past the key end. The notes are really starting to blur into one though at that speed, unless you turn all the resonances etc off and play on the treble.

Those are essentially being played from the letoff though, so gf1 may fare worse in this respect as it's middle sensor triggers a little higher up.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2610253
01/31/17 08:53 AM
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This is slightly off topic but I wish I would have spent more time on the Nord 3 especially after having seen the video in the initial post.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2610895
02/02/17 11:42 AM
02/02/17 11:42 AM
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I've been following the thread about the new Roland stage piano with interest (RD-2000 with PHA-50 action). Yesterday, forum member 'brooster' posted 2 links in that thread, which each contain a demonstration of fast, repeated notes played on the RD-2000.

Not bad!

video 1, RD-2000, fast repeated notes
video 2, RD-2000, fast repeated notes

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619563
03/02/17 06:51 AM
03/02/17 06:51 AM
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@agent8698: Can you demonstrate the MP11 being slow at repetitions?

@JoBert and others: It is nice that you have reproduced fast repetitions on these actions, but what is equally important to know, apart from the time between notes, is how many millimeters the key has to travel up from the bottom before it can repeat. On a well-regulated grand or even upright, you can repeat after lifting the key ever so slightly.

The next thing to know is whether the sensor system and logic is clever enough to understand that when you play a repetition after just lifting the key a little bit, the speed of the hey travelling down and eventually speed of the "hammer" will be, or is allowed to be, a lot slower. Meaning a softer hammer blow. This allows fast, repeated, _soft_ notes, such as a soft, fast trill. This is harder on an upright, but still. I find that it is very hard on most digitals.

Another thing to emulate is inertia. You don't have to press the key all the way to the bottom or even until all the phases of the action until let-off has been completed. The only thing that matters is speed. If you press the key very fast but very shallow (a short, soft, staccato tap for instance), and because of inertia an acoustic action will still go through all the phases. This allows for refined technique and "playing on the second keyboard" as some technicians call it, playing "superficially" with as little effort as possible.

Of course, digital actions measure the speed of the key in some ways. I just find that they don't do it where it matters, not very well at least.

And as someone else wrote, an acoustic action gives a subtle feedback on key return (and at the point of let-off) which allows for fast, soft, shallow trills.


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004. Yamaha CP33 digital. Sennheiser HD 600.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619572
03/02/17 07:45 AM
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It would be nice if some serious reviewer made some sort of repeatable mechanical tests. After all, you could test and measure in detail all sorts of scenarios, repetitions, trills, key return speed, minimal key lift, inertia simulation, aftertouch with a "robotic finger" and by measuring the sound response also. All digital pianos could be compared on equal terms and documented. In fact, you could test acoustic pianos as well and objectively compare some aspects of a great Steinway or Yamaha piano action with that of a good digital. And the makers of digital pianos would have something to aim for and to compete on. In fact, if some of the review sites or forums with many readers did this, it could drive the whole development and competition if done right. No digital piano maker would like to get 2 stars out of 10 in action rating on one of their top digitals.

Of course something similar could be done for many aspects of the action and sound of a piano, some of this is done in http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2566440/1.html



Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004. Yamaha CP33 digital. Sennheiser HD 600.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2619628
03/02/17 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
@agent8698: Can you demonstrate the MP11 being slow at repetitions?

@JoBert and others: It is nice that you have reproduced fast repetitions on these actions, but what is equally important to know, apart from the time between notes, is how many millimeters the key has to travel up from the bottom before it can repeat. On a well-regulated grand or even upright, you can repeat after lifting the key ever so slightly.


Always happy to provide quant data.

This was measured on C5 key on my MP11 with digital micrometer calipers. It's as precise as I can get without disassembling the action. So the accuracy may vary, but I used the same methodology for every measurement so the delta should be insignificant between tests. Measurements are taken at the forward-most end of the key.

--Top of white key to letoff: 8.17mm.
--Top of white key to note strike point: 8.75mm.
--Top of white key to bottom of travel: 11.14mm (without excessively compressing felts)
--Distance above letoff point that allows for 100% strike: 0.20-0.30mm.

Notes:

1. Note that the strike point is well above the bottoming out of the key (it's just beyond letoff, where it should be).

2. On the MP11, some notes will reliably strike at the point of letoff maximum resistance, but most won't. You don't even really need to "lift" your finger above letoff to achieve a reliable strike, you just need to relax your finger ever so slightly. Don't get caught up on the 0.20mm distance (that is so small). Note that the GF2 action does "correct" this though.

3. On the Roland PHA-III/Ivory-Feel/PHA-IV actions I've played, the letoff is significantly higher than on the Kawais (it feels like it engages at 50% of travel). On the grands I've played, the letoff is closer to the Kawai.

4. The more I play between my MP11 and grand APs, the more impressed I am with the GF action. I find that I am making the exact same mistakes between the actions when it comes to fast repetitions. If I miss a note on the MP11 because I don't let off enough, I miss the same note on the grand. If I take effort/concentration to strike the note more cleanly on the MP11, it takes exactly the same effort on the grand. While the actions do feel slightly different, the MP11->expensive grand is 90% more similar than any other action comparison I've tried (between digitals, and especially between acoustics).

That's all I've got.



Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619670
03/02/17 01:42 PM
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Nicely done, Gombessa!

Another interesting number (that is very hard to measure) would be the key return speed from bottom to various points: let-off, strike point, halfway point, full return.

It would be interesting to see the same numbers for

- Grand Feel II
- PHA-50
- RM3 II (VPC1)
- Some Yamaha actions

Anyone? smile


Nordiska 120CA (Dongbei) upright from about 2004. Yamaha CP33 digital. Sennheiser HD 600.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619678
03/02/17 02:10 PM
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Other than seeing MIDI note on/off timings, that sounds like it would be difficult to accurately measure and reproduce.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2619691
03/02/17 03:01 PM
03/02/17 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
@agent8698: Can you demonstrate the MP11 being slow at repetitions?


No. I responded to a Craigslist ad selling a used MP11. Everybody on these forums seemed to unanimously praise the action of the MP11, so I thought, let me take this opportunity to play it.

Fast, repeated notes were difficult for me. I tried to like it, but after 90 minutes I decided I didn't like the resistance that was standing in the way of what my fingers wanted to do, like a middleman who doesn't belong there, who says: "Hey! Slow down! You gotta go through me first! There's a speed limit here, you know! You can't just play as fast as you want!".

Of course, my technique may be faulty. But when I see everybody here praise the MP11, with no dissent, I ask myself: why are there no youtube videos of an MP11 playing fast repeated notes (accurately, or in any other way)? How about a Mozart sonata allegro with some turns, trills, and other ornaments played in tempo, correctly, with no apparent difficulty? Instead, the demo videos I have seen avoid such material. Why?

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: pinkfloydhomer] #2619695
03/02/17 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
It would be nice if some serious reviewer made some sort of repeatable mechanical tests. After all, you could test and measure in detail all sorts of scenarios, repetitions, trills, key return speed, minimal key lift, inertia simulation, aftertouch with a "robotic finger" and by measuring the sound response also. All digital pianos could be compared on equal terms and documented. In fact, you could test acoustic pianos as well and objectively compare some aspects of a great Steinway or Yamaha piano action with that of a good digital.


This could make sense on a digital piano, but unfortunately makes zero sense on an acoustic one. Through regulation - Aftertouch can be adjusted. Key dip can be adjusted, spring tension can be adjusted. Letoff can be adjusted. Inertia varies from model to model (and even piano to piano). Repetition speed is probably also adjustable to the extent that other parameters I've already mentioned affect it (ever play a piano with the springs set too strongly? repeats great, feels like a total workout to play). Too much or too little friction can change action behavior and touch weight.


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Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619706
03/02/17 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by agent8698
I ask myself: why are there no youtube videos of an MP11 playing fast repeated notes (accurately, or in any other way)? How about a Mozart sonata allegro with some turns, trills, and other ornaments played in tempo, correctly, with no apparent difficulty? Instead, the demo videos I have seen avoid such material. Why?


I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, since I was searching high and low for MP11 videos and demonstrations in the weeks prior to buying. I think the MP11 is such a niche product that there really aren't a lot of videos of it out there, whether it's about fast repetition or legato or whatever. It's essentially for pianists who need a stage piano with action above all else, and are willing to accept few on-board sounds and ginormous weight in order to get it. That's a small market.

I really don't think there's a conspiracy here ("Oh we would have posted all these fast repetition videos from our MP11s, but the action doesn't let us do that, so they don't exist."). There just aren't a lot of MP11 videos out there, period.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2619811
03/02/17 11:24 PM
03/02/17 11:24 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by agent8698
...why are there no youtube videos of an MP11 playing fast repeated notes (accurately, or in any other way)?


While it may not disprove your notion that the MP11's action is hampered by slow key repetition, I believe the video below from Juanma Varela does demonstrate playing rather quickly, and with accuracy.



Perhaps you could contact this individual directly to gauge his thoughts regarding key repetition speed?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: Kawai James] #2619826
03/03/17 01:32 AM
03/03/17 01:32 AM
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Tacoma, WA
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agent8698 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by agent8698
...why are there no youtube videos of an MP11 playing fast repeated notes (accurately, or in any other way)?


While it may not disprove your notion that the MP11's action is hampered by slow key repetition, I believe the video below from Juanma Varela does demonstrate playing rather quickly, and with accuracy.



Perhaps you could contact this individual directly to gauge his thoughts regarding key repetition speed?

Kind regards,
James
x


Thank you Kawai James. I have seen that video before, but I'm glad you reminded me of it. That guy is obviously a skilled pianist, and he knows how to play the MP11 extremely well. I was impressed at how good it sounded, although I think more dynamic variation (by the pianist) would make the MP11 sound perhaps even better, as suggested by the score, which includes everything from ppp to fff: http://imslp.org/wiki/Moments_musicaux,_Op.16_(Rachmaninoff,_Sergei)

I did not find any obvious way of contacting the pianist Juanma Varela.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2620162
03/04/17 06:03 AM
03/04/17 06:03 AM
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T71 Offline
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Physis H1 (Fatar tp40wood) fast enough?

[video:youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=IjH72uCO4CQ[/video]

Last edited by T71; 03/04/17 06:10 AM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: T71] #2620170
03/04/17 06:55 AM
03/04/17 06:55 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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ando Offline
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Inconclusive since there are no fast repeated notes in that piece at all. You could play that piece on any keyboard.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2620172
03/04/17 07:04 AM
03/04/17 07:04 AM
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Lam Offline
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Where is that video of the robot rolling on the gp500? The robot was doing repetitions faster than humanely possible on some chopsticks piece. I think it was compared with an acoustic as well. I do remember seeing it one time but it just seemed to disappear or was I dreaming?

Last edited by Lam Chu; 03/04/17 01:48 PM.
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698613
12/20/17 10:03 PM
12/20/17 10:03 PM
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MikeRoePhonics Offline
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Of the following keyboards, does anyone know if any of them can perform 16th notes at 90BPM?

Studiologic SL88 Grand
Kawai MP7
Kawai VPC1

I'm well aware of the pluses and minuses of these units in all other categories, minus the ability to play one locally. I'm trying to find a keyboard which can handle 16ths @ 90BPM like my old M-audio Keystation Pro 88, which is now useless junk.

Thanks!


Virtual Instrument Junkie, Spectrasonics, VSL, Toontrack
Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698619
12/20/17 10:43 PM
12/20/17 10:43 PM
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anotherscott Online content
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The Yamaha P155 seems to be able to keep up with fast repetitions...



The same kind of action (GH) is and has been used in numerous other Yamaha models (P255, CP40, CP50, CP300, CP33). Though most people prefer their higher end actions, i.e. the ones in the CP1/CP5 and CP4.

Re: Is there any digital piano that allows fast, repeated notes? [Re: agent8698] #2698724
12/21/17 09:31 AM
12/21/17 09:31 AM
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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My PX-350 can do 4 notes per beat, at 90 bpm. It's easy two-handed, and reasonable with one hand. Using two hands (one finger on each), I can get 4 notes per beat at tempo 120. I'm the limit, not the keyboard.

While the PX-350's action ("Tri-Sensor Scaled Hammer Action") is three-sensor, I haven't heard anyone call it a speed demon.

. . . Have you tested any of the recent DP's ?


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
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