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Re: Performer or Program? [Re: bennevis] #2602498
01/09/17 01:43 PM
01/09/17 01:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561
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Parks Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2014
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Is the former performance better than Perlman's?
I think the comparison is wrong. Here's where I'm coming from. Goethe was put in charge of the court theater, and he had a amateur actors to work with. He had to train them in every way, even how to behave off stage. He wrote down, kind of as a rule, 'If you have an amateur company, you need to choose a great play.' With this in mind, the comparison would be between the amateur thumping through das Hammerklavier or thumping through Carmen.

Originally Posted by bennevis
You're sounding even more elitist than most self-proclaimed 'elite people' I've encountered, which is giving classical music a bad vibe among the general music-loving public.
I don't believe so, because the Carmen isn't classical music.

Originally Posted by bennevis
....bon-bons. They enjoy 'letting their hair down' in virtuosic trifles - occasionally.
Yes, yes, they enjoy it. Good for them, and good for the audience who enjoys it too. But they sound better playing better music.

Originally Posted by bennevis
Is your performance better than theirs because you're playing Beethoven whereas they're playing Hungarian Rhapsodies and Flight of the Bumble Bee?
It truly depends on the attitude. And this was the main point all along. In the Sarasate I saw and heard, the performer was very transparent, and not humble. Transparent, in that it was obvious he was trying to impress everyone. However, in the Beethoven he was not that way at all. The music was the focus at that point.


Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci
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Re: Performer or Program? [Re: Parks] #2602552
01/09/17 04:36 PM
01/09/17 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Parks
I don't believe so, because the Carmen isn't classical music.

Pray, what is your definition of 'classical music'? Music from the Classical era?

The 3 B's (Bach, Beethoven, Brahms)? Maybe even 5 B's (plus Bartók and Berg)?

Or - only the Viennese classics? How about the Second Viennese School?

Obviously, Bizet's Carmen is not good enough for you either - after all, it's nothing more than just a torrid tale of seduction, infatuation, jealousy and revenge.

I'm listening to Kaija Saariaho's L'amour de loin from the Met right now. Sensuous, beautiful, hypnotic. It includes electronic sounds. It even has medieval troubadour songs. And the whole opera is all about love. Is it too frivolous for your definition of 'classical music'?




Quote
Originally Posted by bennevis
Is your performance better than theirs because you're playing Beethoven whereas they're playing Hungarian Rhapsodies and Flight of the Bumble Bee?
It truly depends on the attitude. And this was the main point all along. In the Sarasate I saw and heard, the performer was very transparent, and not humble. Transparent, in that it was obvious he was trying to impress everyone. However, in the Beethoven he was not that way at all. The music was the focus at that point.

Of course when a performer is playing virtuosic music designed to show off his chops, he isn't going to be a shrinking violet. He's delighting in his own virtuosity. Do you think one should play all music as if it's the Last Testament?

Seriously, you should get out more, enjoy life. And enjoy music - even just for its own sake.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Performer or Program? [Re: bennevis] #2602570
01/09/17 05:24 PM
01/09/17 05:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561
Northern CA
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Parks Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
Parks  Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561
Northern CA
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Parks
I don't believe so, because the Carmen isn't classical music.
Pray, what is your definition of 'classical music'? Music from the Classical era?

The 3 B's (Bach, Beethoven, Brahms)? Maybe even 5 B's (plus Bartók and Berg)?

Or - only the Viennese classics? How about the Second Viennese School?
That could be a whole other thread . . . The short answer is that it has to do with structure, even small scale.

Originally Posted by bennevis
Obviously, Bizet's Carmen is not good enough for you either
I like Bizet. My criticism was on the Sarasate transcription. The main weakness of the transcription is it's lack of transitions. Bizet was a fabulous melodist, but I'm a firm adherent of text.

Originally Posted by bennevis
...after all, it's nothing more than just a torrid tale of infatuation, jealousy and revenge.....And the whole opera is all about love. Is it too frivolous for your definition of 'classical music'?
Love is cool. I have nothing against love ; ). And judging by how passionately you are writing, I know you understand.

Originally Posted by bennevis
Do you think one should play all music as if it's the Last Testament?
I'm sorry, I don't know that reference. If you mean to play 'profoundly,' what-have-you, then, it depends on the context: the piece, the place, the occassion.

Originally Posted by bennevis
Seriously, you should get out more, enjoy life. And enjoy music - even just for its own sake.
I'll try to apply this recommendation to my example. The performance was bad. Are you saying I ought to eeke out as much enjoyment as I can out of every situation? For the record, I did not take the performance personally. The performer was a friend and colleague of mine, and he is always interesting, captivating, to watch. I was curious about the piece, how it behaved.

Originally Posted by bennevis
for its own sake.
The Carmen fantasy may be perfect for certain occassions, 'for its own sake,' for example. I'm thinking about this at all because I feel more and more that a concert can have a purpose other than entertainment. "I'm sorry I merely entertained them, I wished to make them better." -Handel


Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci
Re: Performer or Program? [Re: Parks] #2602577
01/09/17 05:47 PM
01/09/17 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Parks
"I'm sorry I merely entertained them, I wished to make them better." -Handel

He's talking about The Messiah.

Do you think that everything he wrote was serious stuff? What about 'Music for the Royal Fireworks'?

BTW, have a listen to the great Alfred Brendel - who, incidentally, only plays what he deems to be 'great music'. Yet he realizes that even Luddy has his frivolous side:

Does classical music have to be entirely serious?

http://www.medici.tv/#!/alfred-brendel-on-music-episode-1-does-classical-music-have-to-be-entirely-serious


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Performer or Program? [Re: Parks] #2602605
01/09/17 06:34 PM
01/09/17 06:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561
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Parks Offline OP
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Parks  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 561
Northern CA
I don't think I used the word 'serious'.....

I didn't mean to make a claim against musical comedy...

In the Eroica example, I wouldn't call it comic, but dramatic. But in any case, I don't feel that the character or intention is analagous to the Carmen.


Michael

"Genius is nothing more than an extraordinary capacity for patience."
Leonardo da Vinci
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