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Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R #2602329
01/08/17 11:34 PM
01/08/17 11:34 PM
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Chi Hyun Offline OP
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I finally have grown out of my Yamaha DGX-220.
The piano is basically broken. Some of the keys, when I hit a key softly, play a loud note instead of a quiet note. Yeah, this piano is basically obsolete.

I am starting to become an advanced player, playing moonlight sonata 3rd movement, Rachmaninoff Prelude in G minor, and etc. The spring loaded action on my current DGX-220 is not quite the piano for me to play these advanced pieces.

However, I am on the budget. (Over $1000 bucks but under $1800)

I came to these pianos as my choice: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F-140R.

I chose these because they are not too expensive and they have a 3 sensor system on the digital piano.

Why these pianos?
-Yamaha YDP-163: A 3 sensor system
-Roland F-140R: A 3 sensor system, Cheapest from the list
-Kawai CN25: 3 sensor system, counter weights (important?), let off (important?), 88 key sampling, beautiful cabinet design
-Casio AP-460: 3 sensor system, damper and string resonance, beautiful cabinet design (best design on the list in my opinion)

Yes, the Roland and the Yamaha seems boring on the list.
I get that Kawai is trying to make the action like a grand piano with the let off thing going on but I don't think is necessary.
Casio is probably best filled with features with the damper and string resonance feature. This is a plus especially when I am playing advanced pieces. However, I do not favor the sound off the Casio. So that is a negative.

I wish I tried these pianos at the store. The Kawai CN25 is not available in the US (It's only available online on Kawai website only for the US) frown so I can't try it. Los Angeles does not have a good piano store selection. LA does have some piano stores but the amount of digital pianos in the stores is very, very little. I only tried the Casio AP-450 (previous model) from my friend's mother and I was pretty pleased except the fact I kept accidentally rotating the volume when I am playing the piano. I was surprised she was able to require a 450 in Los Angeles.
I was also pleased with the YDP-141 (Non-triple sensor system) my friend has but the keys are not as good as that of the Casio.

Importantly, I favor key action over sound. The CN25 does look better on paper but I do like the tiny features, like the damper and string resonance found on the Casio. I don't care about the number of sounds or recording functions, split mode, duet mode, whatever.

What do you guys think?

You guys can recommend other pianos with a triple sensor system. I prefer a cabinet piano design tho.... smile

Thanks.

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Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602348
01/09/17 02:38 AM
01/09/17 02:38 AM
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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FWIW (I'm complicating your decision) --

For a triple-sensor system, if the Casio action feels OK to you, you could do more-or-less what I did:

. . . Get a PX-150 or PX-160 (same action as the AP-460, I think);

. . . Use a computer (a medium-speed laptop will do) to run Pianoteq;

. . . Get a pair of powered monitor speakers, if you want "room sound", rather than headphones.

If you already have a computer that's adequate, I think that will be cheaper, and sound better, than any of the alternatives. It's ugly -- doesn't look like a piano -- but it plays nicely.



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602383
01/09/17 06:16 AM
01/09/17 06:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
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Finland
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clothearednincompo Offline
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Originally Posted by Chi Hyun
Casio is probably best filled with features with the damper and string resonance feature. This is a plus especially when I am playing advanced pieces. However, I do not favor the sound off the Casio. So that is a negative.


I don't like the sound of Casio either. But that's just an irrelevant opinion, so here's a relevant fact instead: The Roland and Kawai also have both the damper resonance and the string resonance, so you don't need to get the Casio for those. The Yamaha has only the damper resonance. (You'll need to go for a more expensive Clavinova or the P-255 to get string resonance.)

Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602389
01/09/17 06:56 AM
01/09/17 06:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,221
the Netherlands
Goss Offline
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the Netherlands
And the roland 140 also has escapement/let-off wink


Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602414
01/09/17 09:52 AM
01/09/17 09:52 AM
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Jasper E. Offline
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Hi Chi Hun,

you need to know what is how impoortant for you...

how important is
- better key action
- better touch and feel (pretty subjeztive)
- good sound with integrated sound
- good sound with headphones / line out
- furniture vs. portable
- various non-piano sunds, drum accompaniments etc.
and so on.

I think it is a big pro for the Roland F-140R and Kawai CN25 that they are cheap models of good key action. However if non-piano sounds and accompanoiments are important for you, then zou probably look for a high-end model.

Kawai CN25 has much bigger cabinet and hence probably a better sound when using the integrated sound. But this is irrelevant if you plan to use headphones mostly...

At the end: try out them in shops yourself and try to test, from pianissio to fortissimo, plazing slowly/quickly etc.
If you are going to play with headphones a lot, it is a good advice to bring headphones with you for comparable experiments.




Kawai KDP-90
Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602448
01/09/17 12:24 PM
01/09/17 12:24 PM
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Falsch Offline
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In Germany, the Kawai CA-17 costs €1899. That's $2000. If you can find a CA-17 for that price, and wait a little bit to stretch your budget, that piano would be better than all the other ones you've listed.

Another option would be the Kawai ES8+stand, at around €1799/$1900, but I'm quoting German/Dutch prices here. The CA-17 would be the better piano, though.

Last edited by Falsch; 01/09/17 09:43 PM.

Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: clothearednincompo] #2602633
01/09/17 09:14 PM
01/09/17 09:14 PM
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Chi Hyun Offline OP
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Chi Hyun  Offline OP
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Oh wow, I never knew, thanks for telling me smile
Sigh, Yamaha is so stubborn when it comes to digital pianos
I was so sad when the YDP S52 had only a GH action, not a GH3 action....

Casio's piano sound is very "muffled"
Here is a video example comparing the Celviano AP-450 and a Steinway? grand piano.
Skip to 2:43 for the sound comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENliynLPfrE

Casio's lower and higher keys sound good but their middle keys are not so good.....

Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602639
01/09/17 09:44 PM
01/09/17 09:44 PM
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Falsch Offline
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Were are you located?

What are the prices of something like a CA-17 or ES8 (or any of the other piano's) where you are?


Roland LX-17 PE == At GF's condo: Kawai MP7 == Currently in storage: Focal Alpha 80, Pianoteq with Kremsegg I, II and Ruckers II addons.
Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602686
01/09/17 11:57 PM
01/09/17 11:57 PM
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Beakybird Offline
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Roland FP90 and DP603 are in your price range too.


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Jasper E.] #2602694
01/10/17 12:33 AM
01/10/17 12:33 AM
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Chi Hyun Offline OP
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Chi Hyun  Offline OP
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Well, I just want a key with a good key response.
Not too heavy not too light
I know I would be happy with either digital piano I chose. Whether it's the Kawai, Yamaha, Casio or the Roland.

I like the sound of the Yamaha a lot. I do not like the sound from the Casio tho... It's a decent sound. Not as good as the Yamaha in my opinion. But I really do like the action on the one found in the Casio. I haven't really observed or heard Kawai or Roland in real life. Only on videos.

I never knew that pianos perform differently when it comes to headphones. I use headphones 95% of the time when I play the piano. Haha, I really need to be testing these pianos.... When I use the speakers, it is usually when my friends come over and sing.


Definitely furniture/ cabinet design

I don't care about those extra sounds like harpsichord, strings, e-piano, etc... In fact, I even don't need those split piano, dual piano, layer, etc. I would rather get a really good piano with none of those in it. It's something I don't use at all. Maybe just for fun but usually I don't use or need it.

Yes, I have been eyeing the CN25 a lot. It's probably the piano I'm getting. Yamaha YDP-163 is pretty much out of the list... -_- because of Yamaha's stubbornness.

Price from Kraft Music (no bundles)

Yamaha YDP-163 - $1499
Casio AP-460 - $1499
Roland F-140R - $1199

Kawai CN25 - $1599 (Not from Kraft Music, only available on the Kawai's Website): http://www.kawaius.com/digital/CN/cn25.html
I wish the had the black color, not the rosewood color, sigh...
The CN25 is the only piano on the list that is not available in stores so I cannot test it.. frown

Thank you for replying! smile

Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Falsch] #2602707
01/10/17 12:49 AM
01/10/17 12:49 AM
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Chi Hyun Offline OP
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Los Angeles, United States

CA-17 is not available in the United States. International only (I think)
ES8- $1999 (piano only no bundles, price from Kraft Music)

Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Falsch] #2602712
01/10/17 01:01 AM
01/10/17 01:01 AM
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Chi Hyun Offline OP
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Chi Hyun  Offline OP
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Really? You guys are lucky because the USA does not get those pianos...
Not even online. The CA-17 is an international piano only frown
The CN25 is an international piano but, I can to purchase the piano through the Kawai's website ONLY.

The ES8 in the USA costs $1999 piano only and a whopping $2499 for the stand and the piano bench... frown

http://www.kraftmusic.com/sitesearch/?q=es8

Thanks for the suggestion. I was actually considering the ES8, but it's beyond my price range.

Hmm, I'm actually curious. What is the difference between the ES8 and the CN24?

Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602717
01/10/17 01:15 AM
01/10/17 01:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
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minneapolis, mn, usa
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technical ko Offline
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minneapolis, mn, usa
Originally Posted by Chi Hyun
Really? You guys are lucky because the USA does not get those pianos...
Not even online. The CA-17 is an international piano only frown
The CN25 is an international piano but, I can to purchase the piano through the Kawai's website ONLY.

The ES8 in the USA costs $1999 piano only and a whopping $2499 for the stand and the piano bench... frown

http://www.kraftmusic.com/sitesearch/?q=es8

Thanks for the suggestion. I was actually considering the ES8, but it's beyond my price range.

Hmm, I'm actually curious. What is the difference between the ES8 and the CN24?


Don't quote me on this, but you should be able to find the CN25 in stores to test out I believe. I'm fairly sure it's the same category as the CN35, which is readily available, it's just that it's not available through internet retailers, rather smaller piano stores instead. GO HERE to find a local retailer that might carry the CN25 to test out:
http://www.kawaius.com/dealer_locator/Dealer_Locator.html

A family member recently purchased the CN35 for under $2,000 here in the US (before tax, pickup, no delivery) from a Kawai dealer, so that might be an option. The ES8 would have a nicer sound engine than both the CN25 and CN35, but it's a slab piano vs consoles of course. Comparison of the three here.

Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602732
01/10/17 03:21 AM
01/10/17 03:21 AM
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Jasper E. Offline
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Originally Posted by Chi Hyun

I never knew that pianos perform differently when it comes to headphones. I use headphones 95% of the time when I play the piano.


I would rather say they perform pretty differently with a massive or with a minimal cabinet (neither using headphones nor line out).
A minimal cabinet can become kind of a handicap, especially if you are going to use the integrated sound a lot. 95% on headphones suggests to me this difference is not so important for you.

If you were in Europe, I would also recommend to try out Kawai CA17...

What I forgot to mention: it might worth to research any used / ex-display etc. digital pianos in decent condition that could otherwise not fit your price range. You could get far better key action and probably better sound as well, however far less warranty of course -- something for something.


Kawai KDP-90
Re: Yamaha YDP-163 vs Kawai CN25 vs Casio AP-460 vs Roland F140R [Re: Chi Hyun] #2602743
01/10/17 05:20 AM
01/10/17 05:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,591
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Hello Chi Hyun,

Originally Posted by Chi Hyun
...only available on the Kawai's Website): http://www.kawaius.com/digital/CN/cn25.html
I wish the had the black color, not the rosewood color, sigh...
The CN25 is the only piano on the list that is not available in stores so I cannot test it..


Please note that while the CN25 can be purchased via the Kawai website, it can also be purchased from Kawai piano dealers. I believe the Satin Black finish should be available in the US also.

As noted above, the CN25 features both String Resonance and Damper Resonance.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019

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