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Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
#2538408 05/10/16 11:13 AM
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1. After determining my 2007 Mac is a bit under-speced for Garritan CFX, I was wondering if people could recommend a high performance laptop which isn't too big and won't break the bank.

2. Will an external soundcard (like an Apogee duet) reduce latency considerably? Or are there laptops with very good latency by design? I will play principally with headphones.

The basic requirements from CFX per the website are:

- MS WIndows 7 or later (or OS X 10.7 or later)

- Multi-core processor required

- 4 GB RAM minimum required. 8 GB RAM or greater recomended.

- 122 GB of free hard drive space is required for “Full” installation; 24.5 GB is required for “Compact” installation.

- A dedicated hard drive with fast interface (SATA, USB 3.0, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt) is recommended. A solid-state drive (SSD) is preferred.

http://www.garritan.com/products/cfx-concert-grand-virtual-piano/system-requirements/

FYI - I found a cheap 2015 Dell XPS 9550 (i7HQ, 16GB ram, 500GB SSD). The specs looked incredible but then I saw some nightmare stories about terrible performance, overheating, CPU throttling, and driver errors that scared me away. So something that didn't come out of the factory in "Beta" would be preferred.

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Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2538420 05/10/16 11:42 AM
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I've had several mid to high performance laptops (i5/i7) over the last six years and they all worked well at minimum latency (64 samples) using the inbuilt motherboard sound-chip in conjuction with the Asio4all driver. So if you want to go minimal, you don't need a sound card.

Someone might correct me on this but I've heard of problems with win 10 (?). I like win 8 and win 7 was fine also.

I would much prefer to be able to load the full version of CFX. The compact is audibly compromised.

You could probably manage with a modern HDD but SSDs come with peace of mind (no possible bottleneck).

I don't think CFX's ram buffers are well-organised so I would play it safe and get 8gb ram.

I don't know about your Dell but most laptops can overide throttling in the Bios, and it's wise to do it. You should be able to check online for this model.

Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2538424 05/10/16 11:57 AM
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What's your budget?

Definitely get an SSD anyway. I had underestimated how much nicer they made everything until I got one. Start up times are a fraction of what they used to be.

Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2538425 05/10/16 12:03 PM
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I run CFX on a 4 year old Asus laptop with Windows 7, 8 Gigs Ram and an SSD drive, and it runs fine. I believe that the CPU is an Intel i5.

I originally had a 5400 rpm hard drive in the laptop and CFX ran OK. But -- the SSD will make it load SO MUCH faster. I also had some pops/cracks using my generic built-in sound card using ASIO4ALL. That was fixed by getting an external USB sound card with its own ASIO driver. However, your mileage may vary.

I would recommend getting a decently powered laptop and see how CFX runs. It may do just fine. If it loads too slow for you or you get dropouts, you should consider getting an SSD drive. If you get pops/and crackles, consider a decent external sound card.

In other words, try it with the basics and only upgrade if necessary.



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Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
alwatson #2538426 05/10/16 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by alwatson
What's your budget?

Definitely get an SSD anyway. I had underestimated how much nicer they made everything until I got one. Start up times are a fraction of what they used to be.


+1

I have all my libraries stored on an external drive. Mine doesn't happen to be SSD (waiting for a good deal on a price for the size I'd need), but it really helps as far as overheating (which would happen on my Macbook pro) to have those files stored separately from your main computer.

Secondly, just make sure you have a decent amount of RAM, over 16 GB.

Personally, I prefer Macs because I've never had to deal with latency with them. You shouldn't need an interface if your current DP had USB MIDI.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2538435 05/10/16 01:00 PM
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Remember that laptops are expensive. A desktop is cheaper and usually more powerful. So if you don't particularly need the portability ....

My mac desktop is a brute with its SSD. Boots in seconds, and handles any virtual piano with no apparent latency. I keep all my music and video on an external drive.

Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2538440 05/10/16 01:17 PM
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Samsung 850 EVO 500GB SSD now sells at $150, if you're in the US.


Me on YouTube

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX, Production Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand LE, AcousticSamples C7, NI Giant, Sampletekk White Grand, Choc. Audio Steinbach, and a few more. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
Ottawa58 #2538695 05/11/16 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ottawa58
Remember that laptops are expensive. A desktop is cheaper and usually more powerful. So if you don't particularly need the portability ....


+1

Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2538813 05/11/16 12:35 PM
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Thanks for all your tips and recommendations. A few comments follow:

alwatson - Budget should be in the region of USD1k. And I would definitely get a SSD.

Morodiene - I am looking at either 16MB or 32MB. Do you think CFX will work better with 32GB given that the file is 122GB?

Ottawa58 - Laptops are expensive and light laptops are both expensive and handicapped by heat. Unfortunately, I need a laptop as I am always traveling. A larger laptop or gaming laptop might be a better performing option and offer more bang for the buck. Maybe something like the Inspiron 7000 or the MSI.

TheodorN - Thanks for that Samsung 850EVO link - that is a good price for a highly rated drive (I own the 250GB version and quite like it). For more money, Samsung has the potentially faster 850EVO m.2 and 950 PRO m.2 NVMe. I think that NVMe drive only works in a couple of laptops and uses a lot of power. From a practical perspective in a laptop (both generally and for CFX), I don't know if the m.2 drives will show improved performance over the drive you recommended.

I have a professor buddy who is a latency expert in supercomputers. Virtual instruments is not his forte but I will share any thoughts he has.

Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2538823 05/11/16 01:06 PM
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I think you should try smaller ultrabook, the Thinkpad X1 for example. Sampled instruments are HD and RAM intensive but their CPU use is not that big compared to other kinds of virtual instruments and if it is the only instrument you are running a quadcore CPU might not be required at all. Maybe an i7 dual core would be more than enough.

Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2538828 05/11/16 01:17 PM
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Newer player, I also have the 250GB EVO, installed it in my desktop, recently. I'm very stingy with it, hardly keep any user files on it, except the ones I'm working on at each moment in time. Still have about 200 GB free, with only The Giant, what virtual pianos are concerned, plus the trial of Pianoteq.

When I was researching SSDs, I found a review, with a comparison to some better Samsung SSD, probably the one you mention. Don't have the link anymore, but it shouldn't take long to find some comparison articles or charts. I don't believe the difference is that much, even the less expensive 850EVO disks, are very fast, like most solid state disks. My conclusion was, that the Samsung 850EVO disk was the best value for money, around the $100 mark.


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Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX, Production Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand LE, AcousticSamples C7, NI Giant, Sampletekk White Grand, Choc. Audio Steinbach, and a few more. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2539110 05/12/16 01:36 PM
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My computer expert provided some general laptop comments. He is not a pianist but plays other instruments. But since he specializes in ultra-high speed computing and minimizing graphics latency I thought his views were worth sharing:

- Interestingly, some musicians can discern ~10ms of latency (for trained eyes, he said visual latency is much longer at about 100ms).

- For a laptop, an i7 provides very little advantage at high cost over an i5, mainly because the power envelope and cooling system of desktops allow higher gains from the i7.

- For storage, he noted m2 format is young and not fully baked. There are reports that if 2 drives are installed, in some cases significant bandwidth may be dropped; he has not experienced that issue, however.

- For recent laptops, discrete graphics cards have high failure rates and fixing them is expensive. He thought the integrated Intel GPUs were generally sufficient for the average user.

- Long sound latency problems are often driver issues vs. hardware (e.g. for MS users reinstall ASIO drivers or try ASIO4ALL); or try changing buffer size used by the driver.

- He recently picked up a Microsoft Surface pro and thought it was excellent for everything in daily use (except number crunching or image processing). He retired his 2015 macbook pro. He also thought the Surface Pro would make a good portable companion for piano VIs, referencing this thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2412917/Re:_Microsoft_surface_pro3_for.html

At the tablet level, he noted general latency in iOS was quite good, but poor in Android. That is probably due to the fact that Android is "free" and needs to support a massive number of configurations. One might argue that is also due to the fact that Google is an advertising firm.

Last edited by newer player; 05/12/16 04:06 PM.
Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2539125 05/12/16 02:48 PM
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FYI, I picked up a refurbished Dell XPS 9550 15" at the Dell Outlet with an additional 30% discount. All in, probably 60-70% off list price. It is an i5HQ and a non-touch screen. This is a cool laptop with some cutting edge technology, including support for speedy NVMe drives.

Dell also offers a dazzling 4k touch screen for ~$300 retail price. I did not opt for that because it is glossy, I don't have any 4k content, 4k benefits at 15" are limited, no use for touch, extra weight, extra battery consumption, and challenges of upscaling any image.

******* Dell's 9550 launch was an unmitigated disaster; but it looks like the drivers have finally been sorted but getting them updated and sorted on my laptop will probably take me a few days. If it doesn't cooperate, I will just return it to Dell. I have read that Dell's service is terrible and some recommend buying this via the Microsoft Store due to better service. In fact, I would not recommend the 9550 to others unless they don't mind doing a lot of technical tweaking to potentially get a cool laptop (or a possible brick).

In any case I will report results here. The following 9550 "problems" thread (c.1000 posts just for the newest 15" model) should scare most people away for now and hopefully mitigates any concern of a secret Dell shill among the ranks:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...f-hardware-and-software-problems.784691/

For those with a high tolerance to pain, see the 30% Dell Outlet discount code below:

http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/22/campaigns/dell-coupons-codes-us-outlet?~ck=mn

FYI - My configuration has little RAM and a poor HDD so I can upgrade those much cheaper via retailers vs. Dell's high upgrade markups. For example:

--DDR4 is just $60 (16GB) or $120 (32G)

--SSD prices are all over the place @ 500GB
> Samsung 950PRO M2 NVMe ($320)
> Samsung 850EVO SATA M2 ($210)
> SAMSUNG 850EVO MSATA ($169)

My configuration (but not all 9550s) allows two SSDs. I was thinking about reusing my 2.5" Samsung 850EVO 250GB SSD in Raid0 with a 950PRO at 350GB. But my professor buddy noted the bandwidth problems in the post above for some M2 drives; not sure if that is an issue with the 9550 so I will think about that. First step is to get all the drivers working and bugs worked out. Then upgrade as needed.

Last edited by newer player; 05/12/16 02:50 PM.
Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2539128 05/12/16 02:59 PM
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A small M.2 SSD can be fun to make the system boot extra fast but you don't need an M.2 to run VSTs, a SATA SSD is already overqualified as it is.

Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
dire tonic #2553039 06/29/16 11:58 PM
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I wanted to follow up on this laptop-CFX performance thread quickly.

QUICK VERSION

On installation, Garritan showed three audio options in the tools-preferences pane (MME, DirectSound, WASAPI). Surprisingly, MME was the best performer and WASAPI sounded great but unfortunately all three options had latency or clicking issues on my new laptop. Those issues happened with laptop speakers, headphone out, and USB out to dedicated 16/44.1 dac.

I did a bit of internet research noted a lot of recommendations for a good audio interface to solve latency issues. But as a first step, I downloaded ASIO4ALL and got excellent preliminary results in a couple of hours.

Using the full sized CFX sample (Full_Classic_Default) with ASIO at a sample rate of 44.1MHz, buffer size of 128 works and sounds just great. I notice no latency advantage of the es100's built in engine (they are different up and down the the keys).

Buffer of 64 starts to clip just a little. From a timing perspective, I felt a buffer of 512 was borderline-acceptable and 1024 was an eternity.

Internet people recommended LatencyMon software to help benchmark and to identify latency causes. I could see it being helpful for troubleshooting but it was not particularly useful in my case (SSD, clean install of W10, little software, no WIFI all helped).

Beyond LatencyMon software, my main latency test was playing and rudimentary key hits (striking a key rapidly and comparing the sound from the es100's speakers to the VI's headphone's output). Changing volume on the keyboard helped for the comparison. Higher keys might be better for testing...or not.

In Garritan's advanced settings, I had polyphony at 128, max engine RAM allocation at 4GB, inst.Disk pre-caching at 256kb.

I ran Garritan with no other end-user programs. I also rebooted after every option change (buffer size, driver, etc.) Garritan did not overwhelm my laptop (CPU package temps read just below 40*C with no audible fan noise). According to task manager, the CPU was running at ~3GHz (and ~40%) and it was using about 5GB of RAM.

BONUS DETAIL

That Dell 9550 is a fantastic little laptop (after a month of hardware and software bug fixes). You can read about the issues on line if you like...

Anyways, final configuration is an i5 6300HQ, 8GB of RAM, a Samsung 850 EVO HDD, and Micro$oft Windows 10.

I have a little black box external USB dac that runs only at 16/44.1. And a superb desktop headphone amp. As a first step, the idea was to see if I could run the headphones out out of the desktop DAC & amp OR directly from the laptop 1/8" jack.

FYI - I am a beginner piano player but played instruments for about a decade as a child so have some basic sense of good timing, sound and latency.

INTRODUCTION LINKS (LAPTOP SETUP, LATENCY, ASIO4ALL)

http://tweakheadz.com/latency/
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=1011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnbfVFqkKOA
http://surfaceproaudio.com/dealing-with-asio4all-on-the-surface-pro-4/
https://www.ableton.com/en/help/article/optimize-windows/
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2490135/%22Slimming_Down%22_for_.html#Post2490135
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2490551/Galaxy_Vintage_D_ASIO_Problems.html

Last edited by newer player; 06/30/16 12:09 AM.
Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2553178 06/30/16 12:50 PM
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To manage latency issues, you can also go on this page and download the glitch free guide, it is very interesting

https://www.cantabilesoftware.com/glitchfree/

Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2553447 07/01/16 12:24 PM
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That is a very good guide Stamkorg; I should have put that first in line.

I also wanted to include a short Presonus latency white paper with some helpful text and graphics:

Presonus white paper - truth of latency

In the picture below, presonus claims "USB bus timing" in and out represents over 50% of latency in their "truncated" timeline.

[Linked Image]

Below, AudioBox VSL software claims to permit a user to reduce "USB bus clock buffer" and "ASIO buffer time".

[Linked Image]

In both charts please note parts of the latency chain are missing.

Some people had problems with early versions of VSL (back around 2012). Interestingly, it appears that the USB clock buffer option has been killed for Windows (but I'm not 100% sure).

On another note, today, some people have latency (and compatibility) problems using today's USB2 interfaces with new USB3 ports and drivers.

In the future, I don't know if USB3 interfaces will necessarily provide better latency for simple digital piano VI use. They have more bandwidth. New interfaces could play better with USB3 ports/drivers. More exciting is the opportunity for engineers to (re)write more efficient interface drivers.

On that note, I saw interesting claims around the Zoom UAC-2. This is one of the few "cheap" USB3 interfaces available now. Amazon reviews are "mixed" with some people loving it and some one star reviews. Some posters are claiming excellent latency. The Japanese site below shows USB2 & USB3 latency is similar so maybe the simple Zoom interface software is just very efficient. The site has lots of english tables so is easy to skim:

Graphs of Zoom latency - from Japan

Tascam - Zoom shootout by one guy

Zoom driver issues resolved Spring 2016?

I might give the zoom a try for fun...

Last edited by newer player; 07/01/16 12:27 PM.
Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2554140 07/04/16 06:51 PM
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Summary
See below for a quick and dirty latency test of my digital piano via laptop virtual instrument software.

Measured latency of 8ms to 10ms (+ additional unmeasured latency of es100's internal sound processing of ~10ms?).

Graphs show good results with room for improvement. Confirmed by good playability and "simple listening test."

More detail
Tested: Kawai es100 digital piano headphone output vs. MIDI out to virtual instrument via Laptop/external DAC. Tested latency looks to be around 8ms to 10ms.

Principal issue was additional unknown latency of es100 internal sound processing to headphone out which my test missed. The es100's dedicated sound engine connects well with the player so latency is probably pretty short (10ms?)

[Linked Image]

Notes
- Speculate the initial fuzz from both channels (at .004) is the MIDI signal (?)

- But...there was just the slightest amount of cross talk between the channels (and that fuzz is timed almost perfectly on L & R channels

- For right channel removed dedicated headphone amp after DAC as it was causing some interference (maybe ground issue). Latency to headphone amp should be very small but I did not test it

- Used a 3.5mm Y-jack at the macbook input to connect the Left & Right Channels into one port

Test signal path
Left channel only
> Kawai es100 headphone out
> copper cable (terminated with 3.5mm male connector)
> Y-Jack
> Macbook Pro (Audacity)

Right channel only
> Kawai es100 MIDI out
> MIDI to USB cable/converter combo
> Dell laptop
> Garritan CFX software (large sample classical piano 00)
> USB DevilSound DAC
> Copper cable (terminated with 3.5mm male connector)
> Y-Jack
> Macbook Pro (Audacity)

Other test shortfalls
- I wanted to compare listening to es100 speakers vs. MIDI-Garritan via headphones

- Ideally test needed to see latency from touching key to sound hitting ear

- As noted at top, true latency needs to add amount of time es100 is processing sounds

- Other more esoteric issues which I think are immaterial

FYI - Used Audacity software for measurements and graphs

Last edited by newer player; 07/05/16 12:13 AM.
Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2554203 07/05/16 04:48 AM
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You might find this of interest. Generally latency is no longer an issue for a decent PC-software setup.

Re: Laptop recommendations for Virtual Piano - CFX
newer player #2554385 07/05/16 05:01 PM
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I'm personally thinking ZenBook Pro UX501VW plus my old M Audio Fast Track Ultra.

Overkill? Underkill?



J. S. Bach Well-tempered Clavier, complete preludes and fugues (with significant MIDI analysis):

https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant

https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists (slightly better sound quality)



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