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Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: pianoloverus] #2599344
12/30/16 01:59 PM
12/30/16 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus


Yes, but posters have been saying BP is better.



BP works better for some of us in certain situations. It is ridiculous that you object against that - nobody said it would be better for YOU.

You have been using the word logic more than once and I just wonder how logical it is to advocate AGAINST a method you obviously have not tried yourself, or don't like yourself - for others? And sorry for being a bit annoyed here, but one of your arguments for not using BP is that is has never been mentioned in some magazine you have read. Was that to convince me, for example, that I should stop doing what I'm doing? No, I don't think so. Or to tell people who don't know what to think, that they should stick out of this terribly dangerous thing before they fall into the darkness and become nazgûls?

No, I don't think so either.


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Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: ghosthand] #2599376
12/30/16 04:08 PM
12/30/16 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ghosthand
Originally Posted by pianoloverus


Yes, but posters have been saying BP is better.



BP works better for some of us in certain situations. It is ridiculous that you object against that - nobody said it would be better for YOU.

You have been using the word logic more than once and I just wonder how logical it is to advocate AGAINST a method you obviously have not tried yourself, or don't like yourself - for others? And sorry for being a bit annoyed here, but one of your arguments for not using BP is that is has never been mentioned in some magazine you have read. Was that to convince me, for example, that I should stop doing what I'm doing? No, I don't think so. Or to tell people who don't know what to think, that they should stick out of this terribly dangerous thing before they fall into the darkness and become nazgûls?

No, I don't think so either.
As I said a few time earlier, I have been arguing against the reasons people have given for BP. I have also said said several times that if it works for an individual that's fine.

I mentioned the magazine because it is a major piano pedagogy pedagogy publication. So if BP is so good it seems like it would have been mentioned in it.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 12/30/16 04:09 PM.
Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: pianoloverus] #2599393
12/30/16 05:18 PM
12/30/16 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
.....So if BP is so good it seems like it would have been mentioned in it.

Not necessarily. Actually not at all, because just from the posts on this thread it's fairly clear that at least for some people, it is "so good." But let's forget that for the moment.

Let's be scientific. smile

In order for what you said to be viable, it would have to be the case that each and every "so good" practice method -- including somewhat out-of-the-way ones -- has had an article in there in these 10 years (and that you've seen them).
Would you vouch for that? smile

BTW, if you say yes, I might ask you to list them. ha
But, need I say, you wouldn't have to take that seriously, because it wouldn't be intended that way.

Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: Mark_C] #2599396
12/30/16 05:28 PM
12/30/16 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
.....So if BP is so good it seems like it would have been mentioned in it.

Not necessarily. Actually not at all, because just from the posts on this thread it's fairly clear that at least for some people, it is "so good." But let's forget that for the moment.

Let's be scientific. smile

In order for what you said to be viable, it would have to be the case that each and every "so good" practice method -- including somewhat out-of-the-way ones -- has had an article in there in these 10 years (and that you've seen them).
Would you vouch for that? smile


Sounds like is is an example of the fallacy "argument from silence": (from Wikipedia):

Quote
To make an argument from silence (Latin: argumentum ex silentio) is to express a conclusion that is based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than on presence. In the field of classical studies, it often refers to the assertion that an author is ignorant of a subject, based on the lack of references to it in the author's available writings.


Piano teacher.
Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: Mark_C] #2599398
12/30/16 05:35 PM
12/30/16 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
.....So if BP is so good it seems like it would have been mentioned in it.

Not necessarily. Actually not at all, because just from the posts on this thread it's fairly clear that at least for some people, it is "so good."
"So good" meaning good for a lot of people. I never said BP wasn't good for some people as it's clear that it is from this thread.

Originally Posted by Mark_C
In order for what you said to be viable, it would have to be the case that each and every "so good" practice method -- including somewhat out-of-the-way ones -- has had an article in there in these 10 years (and that you've seen them).
Not really. It's possible there wasn't space or the editors thought another article was more relevant, but the question remains that if BP is so good, why wasn't it mentioned? I've never heard it mentioned in the 100+ master classes I've attended or in the many books about piano playing I've read either.

Here's a video where the pianist uses BP to practice a fast passage although I think many would do the same but just start from the beginning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt60wCVjJ5Y



Last edited by pianoloverus; 12/30/16 05:45 PM.
Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: metaresolve] #2599401
12/30/16 05:54 PM
12/30/16 05:54 PM
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What about Muscle Memory? I thought of this thread today when I was practicing the only (little) piece I'm trying to memorize. Muscle Memory pushed me forward today beyond what I wanted to practice. I know Muscle Memory is not reliable, but I guess it can help somehow? It should push us forwards, not backwards! smile

Ah, my episode happened between sections (or what I decided were sections for memorizing).

To those saying it is logical, I am happy I read the thread because I might not have thought of it myself, and I can see we might want to do it sometimes...if only for a change?

pianoloverus, you are not alone anymore laugh

Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: metaresolve] #2599403
12/30/16 06:06 PM
12/30/16 06:06 PM
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Pianolevrus,

Do the master classes you have attended discuss practice technique? I have not had the experience in person, but the ones I see posted on the internet don't include such general detail.

FWIW to you, my teacher has a masters in piano performance from one of the well-respected schools----- and she was taught this there as a tool for memorization.

It is included in Chang's book on practice technique (link below) page 118
http://www.pianopractice.org/book.pdf

And in Chaffin's book, page 106 and two subsequent notations of how Gabriela learned the Bach Italian Concerto for performance.
EDITED TO ADD:
And in Etude Magazine, Vol 40, Article by Eichenger 'Practicing Backwards for Results'
Etude Magazine-



Last edited by dogperson; 12/30/16 06:59 PM. Reason: added Etude Magazine
Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: metaresolve] #2599406
12/30/16 06:16 PM
12/30/16 06:16 PM
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I could understand how it is a technique to fight Muscle Memory, but in the end you'd be practicing much more forwards than backwards anyhow.

Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: Albunea] #2599418
12/30/16 07:28 PM
12/30/16 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Albunea
I could understand how it is a technique to fight Muscle Memory, but in the end you'd be practicing much more forwards than backwards anyhow.
I don't think one should fight muscle since this is a major tool for memorizing. But many people cannot rely on muscle memory alone and feel secure.

The question would be why memorizing in reverse is better than forwards. I only read the last article from Etude Magazine from a few posts ago, and it repeats what IMO is the false reasoning that one will be very secure at the end of the piece. It even admits one will be less secure at the beginning.

Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: metaresolve] #2599525
12/31/16 05:28 AM
12/31/16 05:28 AM
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(Note: I'm speculating big time)

Some people seem to have such a strong Muscle Memory (they play once and memorize it) that the MM gets in their way to learning the piece in a more conscious way. I remember Svenno said he could read his Prokofiev in his mind. That is not Muscle Memory. So, to work on this more conscious memory, people need to do whatever they can, like analyzing the piece to bits, and starting at random places.


Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: metaresolve] #2599906
01/01/17 01:48 PM
01/01/17 01:48 PM
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Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: ClsscLib] #2599922
01/01/17 02:28 PM
01/01/17 02:28 PM
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Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: RubberFingers] #2599926
01/01/17 02:33 PM
01/01/17 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RubberFingers
How do you block a user?


Click on the user name--- 'view profile', choose option 'ignore this user'

Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: dogperson] #2600050
01/01/17 10:13 PM
01/01/17 10:13 PM
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I think the best way to 'ignore' posts and posters is just to go quickly past them and not worry about them, whenever you feel like it. I wouldn't want not to see stuff.

Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: pianoloverus] #2600493
01/03/17 03:52 AM
01/03/17 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Most of the standard literature is familiar to most pianists of a certain level. So they already know how the piece ends before starting to learn it.
If they already 'know' a piece, then why bother 'learning' it?

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
They usually play through it before starting to learn it so again the end is already known.
To me, learning and knowing are different.

I was talking about the experience of the music itself. When one listens to a piece, unanswered questions can be purged by the end.

Another thing, it seems that everyone is referring to backwards learning as if the end of the piece is leaned first. Learning a cadence - any cadence - is backwards learning, and it works in the same way, and is equally beneficial.


Michael

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Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: metaresolve] #2600495
01/03/17 03:59 AM
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I used to always learn my pieces from front to back.

Recently I started learning them from back to front. It worked enough that I do it all the time now.

It's not magic or anything, you can learn it just as well either way.


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Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: metaresolve] #2600505
01/03/17 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by metaresolve
Interestingly, this page talks about the chord-by-measure approach to backwards learning as positive: http://musicmotionblog.com/2009/07/the-fine-art-of-practicing-backwards/

I agree that would get tedious. I like this idea of dividing it into sections and moving around to give variety too. I may have to go jump on that Chopin coda!
FYI: I've never considered the Coda to be the most difficult section of Opus 31 No. 2. I believe it to be the section with the extended arpeggios accompanying left hand octaves-that for me, is by far the most difficult part of this piece. It is a fantastic piece of piano literature, however. Always been one of my favorites.
Enjoy

Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: pianoloverus] #2600511
01/03/17 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Why do you think backward practicing(BP) breaks up the practice of not stopping? Are you talking about not stopping during practicing or performance? All students should be taught to learn a piece in sections, no? But this does not require BP.

Yes, all students should either know how to practice in sections or should be taught.
Quote

I don't think many advanced pianists have this problem. Unless one is practicing playing through a piece, most pianists stop when they think it's necessary because something went wrong.

Advanced pianists all practice in sections. They have to. They can't be successful in any other way.
Quote

I can't fathom why BP gives more of an overview of a piece than practicing it from the beginning, or listening to a performance, or reading through the piece.

It doesn't. Practicing in sections is about how to master things, not how to get an overview.
Quote

Piano pieces are rarely as long as a play or symphonic work. For all but advanced pianists, they are usually less than 10 minutes so it seems your play and symphony analogies are not relevant.

Playing straight through something 10 minutes long 10 times takes 100 minutes, and that's a lot of time. And that's exactly what my students will do, for the most part, if I don't remind them not to play straight through.
Quote

Orchestras have much more limited time for rehearsal than pianists since they often play a new program every week. Pianists can start their daily practice of a piece wherever they want but this in no way requires BP.

I've played in wind ensembles, so I'm well aware of how groups rehearse. But you are assuming that I'm stressing BP, which I am not. What I am stressing, and what I will continue to stress, is that mastering the hardest parts first is a psychological advantage when we get around to performing. And I will continue to blast students who play from the beginning to the end, every time.

(Do you teach?)

I have spent a huge amount of my time as a musician learning things very quickly, so I trained myself to work backwards from hard to easy, knowing that in a jam I might be able to fake through something that was easy but might bet in a hugely embarrassing situation if I did not know the hard parts well enough.
Quote

One can learn a piece in sections and learn various "starting places" without any BP.

That is where I get to. I start with BP only because my beginners just won't stop. If they start on line one, they won't stop at line 2 or section 2 unless I tell them. But at least when they start with the last line, they stop at the end. So that gets done. Then, if they start one section back and don't stop, they are moving towards what they already know.

But my goal is to get them to practice in sections. For an advanced player the most difficult section is the one that is not working, so focus changes from day to day.
Quote

This is certainly reasonable and often recommended but not necessary or more efficient IMO.

Working out the hard places first is not more efficient? How do you practice???

What is "efficient" is learning how to learn music as fast as possible. To me that means immediately blocking out the music, breaking it down into logical sections, looking for problems, working out fingering, working out plans to master things that don't go right automatically - and most of all avoiding repeated mistakes. After breaking things down you can then proceed in any order. You can even take the sections "cafeteria style", although that seems rather random to me.

But why would you not want to master the biggest problems first?

Last edited by Gary D.; 01/03/17 05:45 AM.

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Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: Gary D.] #2600638
01/03/17 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
But why would you not want to master the biggest problems first?
I think we agree on almost everything in your last post so I didn't copy most of it. In regard to this last question, for me, there is no advantage of learning the hardest part first although I also don't see anything wrong with it.

Re: Learning pieces backwards [Re: metaresolve] #2601399
01/05/17 05:42 PM
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