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When evaluating a Bosendorfer 170 from the early 1900's, what should I look for? I'll bring a tech on a possible 2nd visit.

The piano in question does not have a viennese action and seems to have been rebuild 20 years ago. Of course a lot depends on the quality of that specific rebuild and the maintenance/conditions following the rebuild.

If you are bringing a tech next time, the only thing I thing you should look for is if you love the piano. If there are no obvious problems to the naked eye and it plays and sounds great, leave the rest of the worry to the tech. If it had a later rebuild you are unlikely to be able to detect age-related deterioration, or problems with workmanship, or down bearing on the bridge, etc. So don't worry about it: you do your bit, the tech does his/her bit, and hopefully you end up with your dream piano at the end of it. Good luck!

Thanks ando, I guess that is indeed the most wise approach.

Do you know the serial number of the piano you are considering? Depending on the age of the piano, it may not be the 170 at all.

Hi Rich, funny that you say that. The model 170 is what I have deducted so far. The ad has all sorts of pointers saying: Run away, as fast as you can. This ad is strangely interesting though, at least it has been triggering my curiousity since september and last week I decided to do some research and to contact the seller with some questions.

The piano is listed as a 192 with a serial which puts it in approximately 1884. Both bits of information do not seem to match with the photos.

First the length: The plate design is exactly the same as multiple 170's I have seen listed from the between roughly 1908 and 1920. Larger Bösendorfers simply have a really different plate design.
The serial also puzzles me: The 1884 Bösendorfers I have found so far have a square corner and not a rounded corner on the treble side. This piano also has a "normal" action and not a viennese action. Some other details also point to later. All added up my best educated guess is that it is most likely an early 170.

The ad has weird info and weird pictures. If it is indeed a 170 and the rebuild is done properly the worth should be somewhere between 18k and 30k where I live. It is listed however for much less. The rebuild was quite recent. The seller says it is in tune, tuned every half year but hardly drops. Pinblock seems to look new on the pictures which confirms the recent rebuild. The seller is retiring, selling his house (verified) and moving to an apartment where there is no room for a grand piano.

That is why I am interested. Normally such a Bösendorfer would be out of budget.
So: likely a lemon but probably worth taking a look. If it is still unsold in the next few weeks I will pay him a visit as it is not really close by.

wimpiano,

I understand. It costs nothing to look. Keep us posted on what you see - and remember - when you are buying a rebuilt piano you are as much buying the rebuilder as you are the piano.

Cheers,

That is so exciting to hear! If you can get the serial number, you can send an email to Bösendorfer and ask for a copy of their archive related to that specific piano. They sent me the archive for mine and I am thrilled to have it! It describes who did what, and exactly what is inside the piano! Their email address is on their website.

The beautiful sound of a Bösendorfer is a thrilling thing! Gelukkig Nieuwjaar & Tot Ziens!

Steve
Bösendorfer 170

If the serial number appears not to fit the piano pictured there is a chance that the pictures are not of the piano being sold but have been copied from the internet.

Google search can search images. See if it finds that the pictures have been copied.

There are also fake older Bosendorfers out there as well. Prevalent in Europe.

@Rich, thanks for your advice. I am indeed very aware that I am also buying the rebuilder. The guy says to have complete documents of the piano. I will therefore check the rebuilders reputation and, when possible, speak to him about used materials and techniques.

@LakeviewSteve, thanks! A very happy 2017 to you! Of course also my best wishes to all fellow posters here!

When I visit I will get the serial. I already tried to call Bösendorfer in Austria last week but could not get through.
@Philip and Steve Sensey, Thanks, the pictures are not copied from the internet. The house of the seller is also on sale and the pictures of the house and the pictures of the piano match. (Although the pictures taken of the house were done by a professional as opposed to those of the piano). The piano is hidden on the "house pictures" although you see small parts of it like a part of the bench and the left legs .

@Miguel Rey, thanks for mentioning. There are some specific details that at least make it look genuine Bösendorfer such as:
-Identical plate to other genuine Bösendorfers.
-Single stringing (individual hitch pins).
-The rim design and the wood used.
All features which are harder to copy, at least it seems to make little sense to me to copy a piano that way and use very expensive materials doing so. Of course I will also follow @Lakeviewsteve's advice and run the serial by Bösendorfer.

Of course I am very alert as, like I mentioned, there are quite some red flags. If I am not 100% confident about the specific piano and I don't love it while playing I will probably back out.. In the meantime all of this is still in the very conceptual phase. Only if my wife, myself and independent experts are all thinking that this is a good idea we might go forward.

Thanks for all your input, much appreciated.

If they are selling the hiuse, they possibly have to sell the piano too. Could be a good case for bargaining!

It's exactly that Philip! The two main things that worry me are:
-The quality of the rebuild
-The tail end sits above a floor convector in the photo.

It is however likely that the floor convector has not been used in a long time as these things are typical for a certain type of architecture used back in the days the house was build but I don't know one single instance where it's still in use.

The damage by heating should be detectable by my tech.

Played a few top tier grand piano's (including rebuilds) lately and was amazed by the additional level of control. I could go from a whisper to thunder without trouble. There were also very bad examples so it's up to the individual piano.

Went there. Plays good enough (needs some regulation), is in tune.
It is definitely a 170 and the serial number he mentioned is not the serial but a number engraved on the treble bridge.
Serial number on the plate has been painted over.

Restauration is ok-ish but not outstanding. The paintjob on the frame is bad, there is a crack in the paint and two bigger damages.
The tuning block has a superficial crack not affecting the tuning YET.

All considered: good candidate for a partial rebuild. The person choosing to do so will have a bargain. I am however not that person.

Still mailed Bösendorfer to see what it is. Might happen that I get a brainwave and still use it as rebuild candidate.
Evualated a lot of pianos from a good rebuilder recently.

It is disappointing to have come this far and then to have to say no. There is no shortage of used pianos out there!

Somehow disappointing yes but still a lot of upsides. I like the investigation part in general and the part where it brought me more knowledge of grand piano's. I learned an awful lot in a few weeks. That gain was worth the effort..

It involved:
-A rebuilder showing me how he uses his Ciresa soundboards (out of Val Di Fiemme Italy, fichte pine wood) and Bolduc pinblocks.
-Playing of a lot of beautiful (and less beautiful) grand pianos so that I could see what I am actually looking for.. A wonderful experience.
-Getting to know my abilities on different instruments (Believe me, a good regulation is worth it..)

In the meantime it is not a definite no for me but at least a longer on hold. If the seller decides to drop even further I might consider having this rebuilder pick it up.. It still looks good and sound goods, just currently not good enough to tip it over the edge to go ahead... There might be better options. I have patience as my Schimmel is still a very satisfying instrument compared to a lot of grand pianos I played.

Got the response from Bösendorfer and it confirms my thoughts. It was build in 1910, that confirms to me that it is an early 170.
Thanks for all your responses so far. I will pass my feedback and the new info on to the current owner and leave the piano for now.

Bösendorfers records are really accurate