2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Week Deals
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
34 members (dima5222, Georg Z., Charles Cohen, Calavera, AprilE, 14 invisible), 1,050 guests, and 366 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 76
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 76
I just had to order a new Bach Inventions and Sinfonias because my old book was nearly 30 years old and in 4 pieces. I'll miss it through nostalgia but I'm so happy to have a clean book that I can turn the pages on without them ripping out of the binding.

I bought the Palmer edition again. I've seen a lot of people hate on the Palmer editions because of all the gray suggestions, the fingering, and needing to turn the page to play the piece. I had a lot of Palmer growing up--I don't know if my teacher preferred them or that's simply what was available.

I've also played from Dover, Schirmer, and I have the Henle version of Bach's WTC2. While my first choice is Palmer for Bach, I think my second choice is Dover, then Schirmer, and then Henle last.

Is it bad that I like the suggested fingering? It gives me something to start with. My Dover Schubert Impromptu #2 has fingering written all over it. Since there are no suggestions I came up with my own which my teacher at the time was like, um, no.

What editions do you like? What methods do you use to get fingering where there is none? Is there a site of suggestions, actually? Dover doesn't have fingering but I like the binding and spacing more than the Schirmer, which has fingering.

Last edited by metaresolve; 01/01/17 11:53 AM.

meta
~~~
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-930
~~~
Currently working on:
- J.S. Bach: Invention #8 in F major
- Chopin: Waltz, Op 70 No 1 in G-flat major
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,390
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,390
I do like that Palmer edition for students. The gray is a nice way to have editorial suggestions but still be clear about what came from the editor and what came from the composer. It's also a good reminder for students that not everything should be played mf and legato all the time, even when the composer didn't put expressive marks wink The fingerings are useful too.


My WTC is Dover just because I was low on funds when I bought it, but I really don't like reading from it. The notes are so small and jumbled up on top of each other. Someday if I really do a lot of WTC playing I'll probably invest in a better edition. I like Henle a lot for Bach.


Heather W. Reichgott, piano

Working on:
Beethoven - Diabelli Variations Op. 120
Beethoven/Liszt - Symphony no. 7
Tommy (whole show)

I love Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and new music
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,475
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,475
In the same way that I think that Meryl Streep can do no wrong when it comes to acting ( smile ), Henle is my unquestionable "go-to" whenever I buy a new edition of music.

Happy New Year, all.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 76
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 76
lol, I feel Schirmer is pretty squished which is why I opt for Dover when I have the option. My Chopin waltzes are Schirmer.

I think a lot of the music on imslp are from Henle. I've gone to print some out and I just hate how it doesn't have the trill definitions. I suppose I could go find a lexicon or something.


meta
~~~
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-930
~~~
Currently working on:
- J.S. Bach: Invention #8 in F major
- Chopin: Waltz, Op 70 No 1 in G-flat major
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,390
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,390
Actually, the editions people usually mean when they say Henle are the newer editions based on urtext study, and those are still under copyright.

For trill realizations C. P. E. Bach's chart is pretty useful, although any chart is only a starting point for ornamentation, really... the better plan is to listen to 3 or 4 knowledgeable Bach players, see what they all do the same and where they vary.
[Linked Image]


Heather W. Reichgott, piano

Working on:
Beethoven - Diabelli Variations Op. 120
Beethoven/Liszt - Symphony no. 7
Tommy (whole show)

I love Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and new music
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,230
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,230
I like Henle or Barenreiter because of the clarity of the printing, the heavy paper, quality of the binding that stays open and the fact that editorial additions and changes are noted as such. I have formed the habit of photocopying my scores so I can scribble all over them without damaging the originals.

Originally Posted by metaresolve
What methods do you use to get fingering where there is none?

For me, the most powerful tool to learn fingering was to learn Bach fugues. They opened my thinking to all new ways of placing my fingers. When playing something new, I will try out suggestions made by the publisher to see if they work, but often enough, they don't. I've got smallish hands and short pinkies so I often have to make adjustments. I experiment until I find what works. I also depend on my teacher to make suggestions since he has played all the pieces and knows the obstacles that will arise when I bring the piece up to tempo.


Best regards,

Deborah
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 293
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 293
Regarding trills, why, sometimes, in the same piece, do some parts have the little squiggly line (number 1 in hreichgott's image) to show a trill, and then in other parts have the letters "tr."?

Is there some fundamental difference, or is it just carelessness on the part of the editor?


"Genius is not the sign of demigodliness, but the sign of having a profoundly practical mind" - anonymous

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTc4esj9xQG6NjLIr9an29Q
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,075
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,075
Originally Posted by pianopi
Regarding trills, why, sometimes, in the same piece, do some parts have the little squiggly line (number 1 in hreichgott's image) to show a trill, and then in other parts have the letters "tr."?

Is there some fundamental difference, or is it just carelessness on the part of the editor?


tr. and sawtooth are usually the same thing (in Baroque and Classic periods, aren't they?)--sometimes it's carelessness on the part of the composer, who uses both symbols inconsistently, or forgets to indicate one or the other part of the time in recurrences of themes (especially during recapitulations), or who really does intend a different (now forgotten) realization.

I like fingerings in many old Peters (esp. Ruthardt's) and Schirmer (esp. Joseffy's) editions. But both publishers have terrible bindings (and, in the case of my old Schirmers, acid migration issues) that Henle just doesn't have.

For Bach's Inventions, Palmer is a classic everybody should at least consult, IM(H?😀 )O.

I agree with the OP on having a "jumping off place" of indicated fingerings. I'm very good at divising clever ones on my own, but it really wears me out starting from scratch!


WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 76
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by gooddog
I have formed the habit of photocopying my scores so I can scribble all over them without damaging the originals.


Oooohh, that's a good idea. We always wrote in pencil on my music through high school because I had to erase everything when I got to guild auditions. In college it didn't matter and my teacher wrote on my Pour le Piano in highlighter, lol.


meta
~~~
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-930
~~~
Currently working on:
- J.S. Bach: Invention #8 in F major
- Chopin: Waltz, Op 70 No 1 in G-flat major
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 592
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 592
Off Topic, but Heather that is a very useful chart (I haven't seen it before). Would you mind PM'ing me the source (if it's public domain, I assume so) so I can print it out?
thanks, and Happy New Year!
cheers,
Cathryn


The difference between dreams and reality is action.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,230
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,230
Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
I like fingerings in many old Peters (esp. Ruthardt's) snd Schirmer (esp. Joseffy's) editions.

That made me laugh because I despise Joseffy's fingerings, finding them unusable. Fingering is such an individual thing!

Originally Posted by metaresolve
Originally Posted by gooddog
I have formed the habit of photocopying my scores so I can scribble all over them without damaging the originals.


Oooohh, that's a good idea.

I started using photocopies just a few years ago and really like it for several reasons: I don't have to lug around all my heavy scores, subjecting them to damage. Instead, I bring a single 3 ringed binder to my lessons. I can mark up the scores to my heart's content, even using colored highlighters. When the pages become too heavily marked, I start with a fresh copy. I keep the marked up copies as an archive of my learning process. When I attend a master class, I use the photocopies and give the original score to the teacher, which they much appreciate.


Best regards,

Deborah
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 107
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 107
I just got Palmer's edition of Bach's Inventions and Sinfonias; I like that it clearly shows suggestions in grey. Since I only started playing pieces with lots of ornaments, having the actual notes that are in the ornament printed right on the score is extremely helpful. When I worked on my first invention, I wrote that in all myself anyway.

Deborah,
I do the same thing as you and it has worked out for me. Extremely marked up copies in a binder. Any newer copies have only things marked that I still need a reminder about. If I have a section that's giving me trouble, I cut that part out of a copy and it gets stapled to a sheet of printer paper. I practice off that sheet. Keeps me focused on just that part. When I took piano lessons as a kid, the only thing I was told about practicing was play it X times per day. I'm finally getting my on method ironed out.


In progress:
Working through First Lessons in Bach and Russian Music Book 1

[Linked Image][Linked Image]
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,230
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,230
Sadie, that's a great idea! There was one elaborate run in Liszt's Sonetto 104 that had really tiny notes. I copied it and enlarged it so I could clearly see the notes and write in the fingerings. Then I did exactly what you said.

Originally Posted by SadieLady
When I took piano lessons as a kid, the only thing I was told about practicing was play it X times per day. I'm finally getting my on method ironed out.

A valuable practice technique that I picked up during the Victoria Summer Academy was a way to solidly learn a difficult phrase. I aim to play the phrase or section absolutely perfectly 10 times in a row. If I make even the tiniest error or hesitation, I start counting from one again, (of course, practicing slowly and then gradually bringing up the tempo.) Works really well.


Best regards,

Deborah
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,075
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,075
Originally Posted by metaresolve
What methods do you use to get fingering where there is none? Is there a site of suggestions, actually? Dover doesn't have fingering but I like the binding and spacing more than the Schirmer, which has fingering.


I still prefer published paper scores, but IMSLP obviates a lot of excessive personal music library building for things like alternate fingers or exploring public domain pieces off the beaten track. There is also CD Sheet Music and EveryNote for fingerings. (EveryNote has a lot of old Russian editions [?] with GREAT fingerings for when one is really hopelessly stuck--worth the small fee, sometimes.)

Previews from Amazon or Sheet Music Plus help to see if a score HAS fingering to begin with, of course.

http://www.cdsheetmusic.com
https://www.everynote.com


WhoDwaldi
Howard (by Kawai) 5' 10"
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,172
W
wr Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,172
Originally Posted by metaresolve


What editions do you like? What methods do you use to get fingering where there is none? Is there a site of suggestions, actually? Dover doesn't have fingering but I like the binding and spacing more than the Schirmer, which has fingering.


Baerenreiter has become my standard go-to edition for Bach when I am replacing the various worn-out old editions I've used for eons. Once nice thing is that they offer their Bach in two ways, either with or without fingerings. You do need to make sure which version you are ordering, if doing that online. I've been getting the "without" and then doing my own fingerings.

I'll admit I'm still fond of the old Bischoff edition that I started out with. It has a heavy overlay of old-fashioned editorial stuff going on that I find entertaining, now that I know that I shouldn't take it very seriously. Kalmus publishes it as an inexpensive reprint.

Last edited by wr; 01/02/17 08:59 PM.
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
P
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
I use Henle when possible for my core library. For music I care less about, I get cheap, low-quality scores like Dover.

I strongly prefer to buy scores with no fingerings.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,152
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 30,152
I believe that you have to learn to play the music that you have. Most music is not available in multiple editions, either because it is in copyright or it is not profitable for more publishers to print. If it is available in multiple editions, different editions may not agree, sometimes in quite significant ways!

You need to learn to read from bad copy, to make corrections of misprints or bad editing, and to finger pieces yourself, even if the piece is already fingered.

Here is a hint for fingering: If you run out of fingers at some point in a passage, you have to go back and finger it differently at some earlier point.


Semipro Tech

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Allegretto from Granados Escenas Romanticas Fingering
by luthierone - 12/03/21 11:57 PM
Ohio Valley Gem
by Jayekanan - 12/03/21 11:10 PM
For those who play David Nevue
by ShiroKuro - 12/03/21 10:39 PM
Tone of a Fazioli Piano and How to Voice it?
by PianoLover123 - 12/03/21 06:07 PM
Kawai CN29 or CN39
by Teresaw - 12/03/21 02:42 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics210,377
Posts3,150,505
Members103,510
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5