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For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 #2598597
12/28/16 04:47 AM
12/28/16 04:47 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 125
F
faulhorn Offline OP
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faulhorn  Offline OP
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F

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 125
Hope this is not too basic a question.

For headphone use only for the purpose of serious piano practice for a college student minoring in piano performance, is there any advantage to getting a CA 67 or CA 97 over the MP11?

And any advantage of the MP11 other than cost and ease of moving over either of the CA 67 or 97?

And is there advantage of CA 97 over the CA 67 in this scenario?

Certainly, having the most 'realistic' piano sound over the headphone would be nice.

Thanks in advance for any help.
F

Last edited by faulhorn; 12/28/16 04:56 AM.
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Re: For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 [Re: faulhorn] #2598601
12/28/16 05:25 AM
12/28/16 05:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 100
Sweden
RickardNi Offline
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RickardNi  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 100
Sweden
According to this comparison, there shouldn't be too much of a difference:

http://www.kawai-global.com/product_comparison/detail.php?n=1675,1689,1001,1064&ct=36

Slightly more voices, and stuff like that, but the key action and sampled sounds for the grand pianos should be identical between the CA67 and CA97.


Kawai CA97 + Sennheiser HD 650
Re: For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 [Re: faulhorn] #2598604
12/28/16 06:31 AM
12/28/16 06:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,329
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Online Content
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello faulhorn,

Originally Posted by faulhorn
For headphone use only for the purpose of serious piano practice for a college student minoring in piano performance, is there any advantage to getting a CA 67 or CA 97 over the MP11?


As RickardNi notes, the CA97 and CA67 will sound identical through headphones. The MP11's 'Concert Grand' sound will very sound similar to the CA97/CA67 'EX Concert' sound as it's based on the same samples. However, the CA97/CA67 feature additional 'Undamped String Resonance' and 'Cabinet Resonance' Virtual Technician parameters, along with the 'Spatial Headphone Sound' function which enhance the depth and realism of the sound. There are also the latest Shigeru Kawai SK-EX and SK-5 sounds that are not found in the MP11.

Originally Posted by faulhorn
And any advantage of the MP11 other than cost and ease of moving over either of the CA 67 or 97?


The MP11 is a stage piano, and therefore more geared towards live performance. It offers greater flexibility in terms of adjusting, shaping, and layering sounds, and is also an excellent MIDI master controller.

Originally Posted by faulhorn
And is there advantage of CA 97 over the CA 67 in this scenario?


20 additional sounds (and some extra sound demos) on the CA97, however if you do not intend to use the built-in speakers and soundboard, the CA67 is perhaps the more sensible choice.

Originally Posted by faulhorn
Certainly, having the most 'realistic' piano sound over the headphone would be nice.


In this case my recommendation would be for the CA67.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 [Re: faulhorn] #2598608
12/28/16 06:43 AM
12/28/16 06:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,020
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Doug M.  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,020
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by faulhorn
Hope this is not too basic a question.

For headphone use only for the purpose of serious piano practice for a college student minoring in piano performance, is there any advantage to getting a CA 67 or CA 97 over the MP11?

And any advantage of the MP11 other than cost and ease of moving over either of the CA 67 or 97?

And is there advantage of CA 97 over the CA 67 in this scenario?

Certainly, having the most 'realistic' piano sound over the headphone would be nice.

Thanks in advance for any help.
F


Firstly, there is no such thing as: the most realistic piano sound OR the most realistic piano action. This is because, acoustic pianos have a variety of sounds, actions, characteristics which make them unique.

The correct question to ask is: what piano sound/action does he use currently, and which digital piano gives the closest match to his tastes. Maybe he'd prefer the sound/action of a digital piano because they are different to what he normally plays (maybe better, maybe just different). On the other hand, maybe he would prefer consistency.

All of this means that he needs to test these pianos himself. Only then will he know what he likes.

The question also implies that one instrument might be better than another with headphones. However, which headphones he has might make a much bigger difference. There are lots of posts on this forum you can search through on which headphones work best with digital pianos.


If high quality action is important, you have many actions to chose from in digital pianos, I've broken them down thus (others may have different opinions):

Best: Yamaha AvantGrande actions (N1, N2, N3, N3X)
Great: Kawai Grand Feel II action, the action in the Casio GP500 (which I have not tested so won't comment except to say it might be better than the Grand Feel II, or not).
A step below but still great: Roland PHA-50, Kawai Grand Feel 1 action, Kawai RM3 Grand II' keyboard action, Yamaha NWX.
Other very good actions: Kawai RMIII, Kawai RMII actions, Roland PHAIV pro action, Yamaha NW-GH.

If high quality sound is important, you have 4 different choices broken down thus:
1) On-board
a) Modelled piano sounds (Multiple Roland pianos and Physis piano by Viscount)
b) High quality sampled sounds that use modelling for various piano characteristics e.g., the Yamaha, Casio, Nord, Kurzweil and Kawai pianos (well, everybody else basically).

2) VST (virtual studio technology) - basically the use of a laptop and software to create the sound.
a) Modelled piano sounds e.g., Pianoteq software
b) Multi gigabyte sampled pianos e.g., Ivory II or Imperial Vienna and many other examples.

Now, if you find the action you like best, you can get the piano sound to suit your tastes using a laptop or PC desktop computer along with a sound-card and a VST piano. This makes the choice slightly easier, as the on-board sounds won't be the deciding factor.

As far as those you mentioned---CA67 vs CA97 vs MP11

The advantage of the MP11 is that it is more portable, so if your offspring moves around from digs to digs, it's easier to move also.

The disadvantage is that the MP11 has only the GrandFeel 1 action (still a cracking action), and is missing the Siguru pianos that the newer model you mentioned have. However, the EX pianos in the MP11 are still very good. Like I said, it's easily possible to supplement sound via the use of a computer with VST software and get a better sound than available from the on board setup. Therefore, concentrate upon the action primarily.

Personally, if I was having money for a Kawai digital, I'd take the CS11: it has a better speaker placement and soundboard than the CA97 resulting in a better sound with equivalent action.

Let's look at your potential digital piano shopping list.

Non portable (in no particular order)
Casio GP500; Roland LX17, Roland V-Piano Grand; Kawai CS11 or CS8, Kawai CA97/67; Yamaha CLP600/595, Yamaha AvantGrand (N1, N2, N3, N3X), Yamaha NU1;

Portable (in no particular order)
Kawai MP11/MP7, Kawai VPC1 plus laptop and VST, Kawai ES8; Roland Roland V-piano, Roland FP-90, Roland RD800; Yamaha CP4, Yamaha Montage; Korg Kronos, Korg SV-1; Nord Piano 3; Kurzweil Forte 8; Physis piano (By viscount); Casio PX-560.


VST software pianos

a) Modelled
Pianoteq,

b) Sampled
VSL Vienna, Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft, Ivory II, Galaxy D, (see following link: Chosing a softare piano

Please note: both sound quality (in tone) and piano action are highly subjective to the user!! This is why testing beats opinion.

Last edited by Doug M.; 12/28/16 06:51 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
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Re: For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 [Re: faulhorn] #2598667
12/28/16 11:31 AM
12/28/16 11:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 10
D
Danilo72h501 Offline
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Danilo72h501  Offline
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D

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 10

Re: For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 [Re: faulhorn] #2598670
12/28/16 11:40 AM
12/28/16 11:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,221
the Netherlands
Goss Offline
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Goss  Offline
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Posts: 1,221
the Netherlands
Fascinating Danilo - thanks for making that video =]


Roland HP605|Senheiser HD558|MSFT Surface Pro 4|coffee
Re: For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 [Re: Danilo72h501] #2598746
12/28/16 02:58 PM
12/28/16 02:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 100
Sweden
RickardNi Offline
Full Member
RickardNi  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 100
Sweden
Originally Posted by Danilo72h501

Great video!


Kawai CA97 + Sennheiser HD 650
Re: For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 [Re: faulhorn] #2598876
12/29/16 02:19 AM
12/29/16 02:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,329
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,329
Hamamatsu, Japan
Nice video, well played! wink

I would personally prefer to hear a little more depth on the reverb applied to that piano sound, however.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 [Re: faulhorn] #2598931
12/29/16 06:47 AM
12/29/16 06:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 10
D
Danilo72h501 Offline
Junior Member
Danilo72h501  Offline
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D

Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 10
I would prefer a better pianist :-)

Re: For Headphone use only - Kawai CA 67 vs CA 97 vs MP11 [Re: Danilo72h501] #2598936
12/29/16 07:13 AM
12/29/16 07:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,020
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Doug M.  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,020
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by Danilo72h501
I would prefer a better pianist :-)


I enjoyed your performance. I'm sure you can pick holes in it.
There is only so much you can do to improve a reproduction of a song before only experts will notice differences; however, you could modify the tune to make it your own ;-).

I've heard many talented pianists, but the creative ones are 1 in 1000.

Last edited by Doug M.; 12/29/16 08:44 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand

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