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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: Kawai James] #2596072 12/19/16 09:09 AM
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dmd Offline
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Do you have any other examples you can share please, Don?

Kind regards,
James
x



Well, here is one ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aRvOI47vto


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2596124 12/19/16 12:44 PM
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I have the Gp500 -- but there is nowhere a clear statement as to what Bechstein really brought to the collaboration...
If it were really based on a Bechstein model xxx it would be said in a million places, and not in such a vague manner. That said I found both the Casio and the Kawai actions far in front of any comparably priced instruments, with a slight preference even for Kawai.

I actually find the Bechstein sound on this instrument rather bad, The settings are much better in choosing "Liszt"
or "Satie" scenes which choose the Bosendorfer/Steinway models together with higher levels of resonance.

I almost entirely use headphones, so the soundboard would not have helped on the CS11. I found the placing of the music stand on the CS11 quite crazy -- I am sure that I would have ended up hitting it often with my knuckles



More Geese than Swans now live, more Fools than Wise.
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2596176 12/19/16 03:09 PM
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From what I was on many Casio promo videos, is that the action is Casio's own idea. They took from Bechstein only the key lenght and materials.

Bechstein was put strongly into sampling. But they did not developed the action.

Unfortunately, misunderstanding is taken because people do not listen carefully enough and want to think that it was made by Bechstein.

Unfortunately, Casio is not clear in it's marketing materials what was the Bechstein role during the piano development proces, but after seeing all materials and carefully listening, you will hear that they helped with samples and took wood and key covers from Bechstein and their lenght. Action istelf is 100% Casio idea.

Well, it's at lest how after many videos with Casio representatives I see it.
As James correctly said, there no single mention that the action was developed by Bechstein. Subtle differences, which are making a lot of you confused. Their marketing did a good job smile

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: kapelli] #2596190 12/19/16 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kapelli
From what I was on many Casio promo videos, is that the action is Casio's own idea. They took from Bechstein only the key lenght and materials.

Bechstein was put strongly into sampling. But they did not developed the action.

Unfortunately, misunderstanding is taken because people do not listen carefully enough and want to think that it was made by Bechstein.

Unfortunately, Casio is not clear in it's marketing materials what was the Bechstein role during the piano development proces, but after seeing all materials and carefully listening, you will hear that they helped with samples and took wood and key covers from Bechstein and their lenght. Action istelf is 100% Casio idea.

Well, it's at lest how after many videos with Casio representatives I see it.
As James correctly said, there no single mention that the action was developed by Bechstein. Subtle differences, which are making a lot of you confused. Their marketing did a good job smile


That is very interesting.

However, another thought comes to mind.

If I were the Bechstein company, I would not wish to my GOOD name associated with some digital piano company unless I was very happy with the product they have produced.

So, Bechstein may have contributed more to the final product than you are suggesting.



Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: dmd] #2596212 12/19/16 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dmd

If I were the Bechstein company, I would not wish to my GOOD name associated with some digital piano company unless I was very happy with the product they have produced.


Agreed, Bechstein has high standards and a reputation to uphold.

Originally Posted by dmd
So, Bechstein may have contributed more to the final product than you are suggesting.


Maybe, but A doesn't necessarily follow B. It's just as possible that Casio did a phenomenal job with their hybrid action without Bechstein's help and Bechstein was satisfied with the result.

In the end I agree that outside of marketing impact it really doesn't matter quite as much who designed the action as how it ultimately performs. If Fischer-Price made a great action your have pianists wanting to play it.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: Gombessa] #2596237 12/19/16 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by dmd

If I were the Bechstein company, I would not wish to my GOOD name associated with some digital piano company unless I was very happy with the product they have produced.


Agreed, Bechstein has high standards and a reputation to uphold.

Originally Posted by dmd
So, Bechstein may have contributed more to the final product than you are suggesting.


Maybe, but A doesn't necessarily follow B. It's just as possible that Casio did a phenomenal job with their hybrid action without Bechstein's help and Bechstein was satisfied with the result.

In the end I agree that outside of marketing impact it really doesn't matter quite as much who designed the action as how it ultimately performs. If Fischer-Price made a great action your have pianists wanting to play it.


Absolutely ! We do not care who's ideas were used.

If Bechstein signed off on the "Collaboration" it must be pretty good.



Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used)
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2596243 12/19/16 06:22 PM
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Please do not forget, that Bechstein has to live, and putting their plate on a digital piano will make their brand to be widely known in the world. Most of the people in the world have no idea of what Bechstein or Seiler is. Few people can recognize Steinway and that's all.

Casio is doing great marketing job for Bechstein also. This is needed also in the top range pianos as well.

And please do not forget, that Bechstein is not only C. Bechstein top-end piano. Also their lower series and cheap brands. One looking for an acoustic instrument will find something from Bechstein factory within one's budget, regardless whether you need a top piano or small cheap upright for school.

It has other shades than "what did Bechstein did to help Casio making good digital pianos"

smile

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: kapelli] #2596350 12/20/16 12:47 AM
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^I think if you read the entire thread the debate would of ended already, I'm not sure where you found its "100% Casio idea" but both sides have said they have worked together in making the action.


"For this project, we developed the tone colours for the CELVIANO Grand Hybrid “Berlin Grand” based on sampling of a C. Bechstein concert grand piano. At the same time, we focused our efforts on also achieving an excellent key action."

Werner Albrecht, Service Director and
Master Piano Maker (Klavierbaumeister) at C. Bechstein

http://music.casio.com/en/products/digital_pianos/ghs/bechstein/

Words from C.Bechstein themselves. In the video by Don, Casio also said Bechstein helped a lot in making the action so lets stop speculating that Bechstein only gave them wooden keys and had no development in making the action and move on guys smile

Last edited by lamadoo; 12/20/16 04:47 AM.
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: Kawai James] #2596452 12/20/16 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Chris Warren
On the plus side, I loved the bass on the Casio, definitely the best DP bass I've heard.


Chris, do you mean the bass frequencies of the acoustic piano sounds, or the tonal character of the acoustic bass/electric bass sounds?

James
x


Hi James,

I mean the sound of the bass when playing the Casio. The tonal character of the base didn't seem to suffer as much from the digital-ness inherent in many others. Kawai bass notes sound too digital for me across the variants, and whilst my Avantgrand sounds less digital in the bass, it doesn't have the body. Not sure if that answers your question...!

C

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2596509 12/20/16 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by lamadoo
In the video by Don, Casio also said Bechstein helped a lot in making the action so lets stop speculating that Bechstein only gave them wooden keys and had no development in making the action and move on guys smile


Well I just saw this video and I think he actually says the opposite. “The keys were designed in collaboration using the same material and processes as Bechstein … what’s on the other end of it is what was designed by Casio, and it’s a really advanced … you have this beautiful mechanism that sends a hammer along the same vertical path as a vertical piano.”

Casio seems to be specifically saying the keys are built in collaboration with Bechstein but the mechanism beyond the keys is Casio.

Now I’m not saying the the Casio mechanism is therefore not good, I think it’s great, I just think you have to be careful when marketing material talks about collaboration without giving any details to make any conclusion as to what the extent of that collaboration is, it can be anything.

And anyway, even if the collaboration was significant, I think it’s more important to see the result than who did what. And the actual mechanism as described well in JoBert’s excellent post above is in some ways less similar to a real acoustic than a Kawai. And Casio doesn’t deny this, in fact in the same video, they say rather than replicate the acoustic mechanism, they tried to improve on it by removing the escapement to enable quicker playing. How desirable that is is is very subjective, some will find it very enjoyable, others will find it to be a nuisance because it makes it harder to transition to an acoustic.

Ultimately marketing fluff and dealers raving shouldn’t count much compared with your own personal appreciation, if the Casio feels better, by all means go for it !

Originally Posted by Joe Garfield
Since Kawai uses traditional materials (felt), the keys can be adjusted and the tightness changed with a little bit of steam.


Joe does that mean you can make the key mechanic slightly lighter ? If so would you need to call on some piano technician ?

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2596523 12/20/16 02:02 PM
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A piano technician could adjust the weighting at the front of the key. Adding more weight feels easier to push down but comes back slower. Moving the weight back makes it feel faster. Theoretically you should be able to moce the balance weights back and add a little extra weight to achieve lighter touch with little or no impact on speed. I haven't done this personally since it requires drilling holes and proper fitment of the weights and I didn't want to mess with that myself.

The felt can be changed, too, which can affect the feel. But you need to know how it all works together. If you change one thing, there is usually an implication somewhere else. But a tech can do all this, for some cost...

Recall that the Rosencrodt digital is a Kawai unit that has been regulated with weighting and materials.

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: Bach2Black] #2596665 12/20/16 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bach2Black


Casio seems to be specifically saying the keys are built in collaboration with Bechstein but the mechanism beyond the keys is Casio.

Now I’m not saying the the Casio mechanism is therefore not good, I think it’s great, I just think you have to be careful when marketing material talks about collaboration without giving any details to make any conclusion as to what the extent of that collaboration is, it can be anything.

And anyway, even if the collaboration was significant, I think it’s more important to see the result than who did what. And the actual mechanism as described well in JoBert’s excellent post above is in some ways less similar to a real acoustic than a Kawai. And Casio doesn’t deny this, in fact in the same video, they say rather than replicate the acoustic mechanism, they tried to improve on it by removing the escapement to enable quicker playing. How desirable that is is is very subjective, some will find it very enjoyable, others will find it to be a nuisance because it makes it harder to transition to an acoustic.

Ultimately marketing fluff and dealers raving shouldn’t count much compared with your own personal appreciation, if the Casio feels better, by all means go for it !



I said the video posted by Don not the other one, please guys put your personnel feeliings out of this. i think a lot of people can't accept that Bechstein had their hands in developing the action because its a 'Casio' DP and with that comes snobbery in brand names. C.Bechstein themselves have said they placed a lot of effort in making the action, keyword here being action so im not sure why people are trying to put words into Bechsteins mouth

Last edited by lamadoo; 12/20/16 07:50 PM.
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: Chris Warren] #2596684 12/20/16 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Warren
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Chris Warren
On the plus side, I loved the bass on the Casio, definitely the best DP bass I've heard.


Chris, do you mean the bass frequencies of the acoustic piano sounds, or the tonal character of the acoustic bass/electric bass sounds?

James
x


Hi James,

I mean the sound of the bass when playing the Casio. The tonal character of the base didn't seem to suffer as much from the digital-ness inherent in many others. Kawai bass notes sound too digital for me across the variants, and whilst my Avantgrand sounds less digital in the bass, it doesn't have the body.


Thank you for the clarification Chris.

Cheers,
James
x


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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: Lam] #2596687 12/20/16 08:23 PM
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lamadoo, just out of curiosity, may I ask if you own (or are planning to purchase) a Grand Hybrid instrument?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2596690 12/20/16 08:27 PM
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I thought the bass sounded fantastic with the soundboard resonating through the cabinet on the CS11? Maybe part of the issue with bass reproduction is actually reproducing some of the acoustic action also?

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2596733 12/21/16 01:00 AM
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Just got a call from the retailer. CS11 arrived already and being delivered tomorrow! Going to be fun practicing this weekend smile Mrs wont be able to pull me away ahaha.

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2596735 12/21/16 01:06 AM
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Hey, isn't the piano supposed to be her present? wink


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: Kawai James] #2596746 12/21/16 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hey, isn't the piano supposed to be her present? wink


I need to carry out strict testing and inspection before I let her near it wink

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2602786 01/10/17 10:34 AM
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From what I have been told about the GP500 from people that are much better at judging pianos than me is that the action is very light, too light and also it has no escapement feature.

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Casio GP500? [Re: aokman] #2602795 01/10/17 10:50 AM
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I tried both, (having played acoustic for 30y). My conclusion: both mechanics are good. Perhaps I prefer a little the Kawai. You can work seriously with both.

You will absolutely smash your knuckles on the music stand on the Kawai if playing anything the least athletic.
The layout is very cramped indeed.

I found the Steinway sound on the Casio better than the Kawai sound. (Bechstein sound on wakeup is ugly and thin)

Since I was aiming at headphone sound I took the Casio -- I was not looking for the bigger sound from a soundboard,
I want it for night work.

----------
It is true that the action on the Casio is not heavy -- and I was brought up with heavy Petrof which I still like. However, try a rebuilt Pleyel grand. Very different from modern concert style instruments.


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