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Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: Eldridge] #2593813 12/11/16 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Eldridge
Actually, Chopin's melodies do not work well for the voice, because most of them cover a four octave range, which no singer has.


Wrong, some do. And I think they can be arranged for normal voice range. I sing them in the shower all the time smile

But I still prefer them on the piano.

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Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: wr] #2593815 12/11/16 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
But, at any rate, many composers' status in the world of classical music fluctuates quite a bit over time...


That is true and it's true for Bach also. So we shouldn't be too offended when someone tried to make a point for her idol. I am not sure it's necessary though for these well established guys. There's room at the top for more than one.

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2593826 12/11/16 06:28 AM
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Coincidentally I bought a Kawai CN35 about six months ago. Mainly to practice late at night and to get an idea of what my choir pieces might sound like. Before inflicting them on the choir

Baroque is my main interest. Years ago I studied harpsichord with Kenneth Gilbert at a time when harpischords were pretty scarce in Canada. So I was intrigued to find two harpsichord "choices" on my Kawai. I promptly tried it out with the Italian Concerto ( sounds pretty good ) the Goldbergs ( not quite so good) and the Inventions ( again reasonably good). So now am having a good time switching back and forth from "piano" to "harpsichord". The program is reasonably good, with the slight "plucking" effect of the harpsichord plectra and the signature "flat line" dynamics.

For me ... at the digital level ... it's a toss-up. The more melodic pieces suffer with the harpsichord setting, but the faster ones with elaborate ornamentation sound wonderful. The ornaments are crystal clear without the reverb of the piano.

Of course purists will scream " Anathema" ... But I think there's room for different sounds ... we do have electric guitars ... and even the Theramin ( which sits glaring at me right now since I can't play it ...)
The key is to becoming very familiar with your instrument and of course a relatively good quality digital. I am biased in favor of Bach and feel he will survive anything. Heck he's already in deep outer space on the two Voyager Golden Records. (1977)


Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: phantomFive] #2593872 12/11/16 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive


The obvious way of proving her wrong is by finding a Chopin piece that is abstract in the way she likes. I would bet some of the etudes would be good candidates for sounding nice on a synthesizer.



I think you hit the nail on the head, regarding the etudes. In the wake of Walter Carlos' "Switched on Bach" craze, a lot of classical music done on synthesizer came out on LP...and I recall that on one of those albums that I bought was a very effective synthesizer version of Chopin's "Black key" etude. I think I still have it on vinyl (but my vinyl collection is in disarray so it would take me some time to find it).

jonnyboy126 - Thanks for the Garrick Ohlsson link...the voice of reason!

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: TheHappyPianoMuse] #2593912 12/11/16 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TheHappyPianoMuse
[...] and even the Theramin ( which sits glaring at me right now since I can't play it ...)[...]


THP:

Have you read Sean Michael's book, Us Conductors?

Winner of the 2014 Scotiabank Giller Prize.

"In a finely woven series of flashbacks and correspondence, Lev Termen, the Russian scientist, inventor [of the Theramin], and spy, tells the story of his life to his “one true love,” Clara Rockmore, the finest theremin player in the world."

Regards,


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Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2593953 12/11/16 05:32 PM
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The instrument we play today sounds quite a bit different than the instrument Chopin composed for, and yet Chopin still sound good.

I think Bela Fleck played an etude on a banjo on his album, and it arguably sounded closer to an early piano than a modern piano does.

I of course don't know entirely how to define 'closeness' as far as instrument sounds go.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: BruceD] #2593956 12/11/16 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by TheHappyPianoMuse
[...] and even the Theramin ( which sits glaring at me right now since I can't play it ...)[...]

THP:

Have you read Sean Michael's book, Us Conductors?

Winner of the 2014 Scotiabank Giller Prize.

"In a finely woven series of flashbacks and correspondence, Lev Termen, the Russian scientist, inventor [of the Theramin], and spy, tells the story of his life to his “one true love,” Clara Rockmore, the finest theremin player in the world."


Lev Sergeyevich Termen - known as "Leon Theremin" in the USA. smile

Actually I've had some luck playing basic Romantic classical tunes (with vibrato) on the Theramin - but it can be frustrating !!



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Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: phantomFive] #2594043 12/12/16 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
You folks miss her point. She's just trying to claim you can play Bach on the piano - still a contentious issue.

Who says you can't?
HIPsters!

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2594350 12/13/16 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by scriabinfanatic


But one particular PBS TV show episode from that time sticks in my mind, in an infamous sort of way. ... but it featured Rosalyn Tureck giving a lecture/demonstration about her favorite subject -- the music of J. S. Bach. For some reason, Ms. Tureck felt the need to take a cheap shot at Chopin in order to elevate her beloved Bach...

While it's one thing for her to say that Chopin wrote music that depended on piano sonority .... it's an impossibly big step, and false logic, to go from there to claim knowledge of what Chopin was or was not "capable" of as a composer.


I remember that show quite well, as it made a lasting impression on me. I saw it quite a while before I took even my first piano lesson.

I don't think it's a cheap shot at all, and did not demean Chopin in any way as a composer. It merely pointed out the amazing and perceptive relevance of Chopin as a composer for the piano, in a way few people have before or since.

And one can see her point. How may times have jazz ensembles made successful and serious arrangements of Bach? Too many to count, many of whom are still performed, recorded and sold.

And Chopin? Just a few, and then people stopped trying because they didn't work nearly as well. Except for Muzak, of course. That in itself is an affirmation of the aptness of Turek's observation.

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2594351 12/13/16 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by scriabinfanatic


I think you hit the nail on the head, regarding the etudes. In the wake of Walter Carlos' "Switched on Bach" craze, a lot of classical music done on synthesizer came out on LP...and I recall that on one of those albums that I bought was a very effective synthesizer version of Chopin's "Black key" etude. .



Yup, and it sounds terrible, as it did 40 years ago.

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: Orange Soda King] #2594447 12/13/16 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
While we are talking about bad arrangements of good music, the choral Lux Aeterna setting of Elgar's Nimrod from Enigma Variations is also trash.

Someone over on the Elgar Society fb page quoted ClassicFM: This stunning vocal rendition of Elgar's Nimrod will have you weeping in seconds.

Weeping indeed... smokin


Jason
Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2595107 12/15/16 07:51 PM
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She may be right, but Chopin on the piano is better than Bach on the Polymoog.

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: laguna_greg] #2595399 12/16/16 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by laguna_greg
And Chopin? Just a few, and then people stopped trying because they didn't work nearly as well. Except for Muzak, of course. That in itself is an affirmation of the aptness of Turek's observation.

Actually, Richard Clayderman and Serge Gainsbourg were quite successful with their Chopin arrangements.

And I didn't find the Nocturne on the Moog "impossible". I think it would make a nice background music for an Arcade video game.


My grand piano is a Yamaha C2 SG.
My other Yamaha is an XMAX 300.
Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: patH] #2595478 12/16/16 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by patH
Originally Posted by laguna_greg
And Chopin? Just a few, and then people stopped trying because they didn't work nearly as well. Except for Muzak, of course. That in itself is an affirmation of the aptness of Turek's observation.

Actually, Richard Clayderman and Serge Gainsbourg were quite successful with their Chopin arrangements.

And I didn't find the Nocturne on the Moog "impossible". I think it would make a nice background music for an Arcade video game.


"Successful"? Oh My Dear, those arrangements were no more successful than a street walker in a medium-sized town, and with exactly the same degree of longevity and for exactly the same reasons. Nothing that will survive the tests of Time or Taste. Grammys were certainly not on the offing at the time, and now none are forthcoming. Guess sales are down right now...

You give it 50 years, and then we'll see just how "successful" these things really are.

Come to think of it, we can actually give it about 36 months after the first sale because, as we all know, day old fish can't be sold to anyone...

...which by the way, is exactly how long Muzak lasts on contract in your local elevator, which proves my point...

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2595489 12/17/16 03:20 AM
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Just now got around to watching it...

First off, what was that bizarre accent/manner of speaking she affected? Sure doesn't sound like anything from her hometown of Chicago that I've ever heard before. Was it something she caught while hanging with her pal William Buckley? Whatever, it was pretty funny, and was good for several giggles.

But anyway, the Bach-Chopin comparison was just silly. Why would Chopin even want to write instrument-independent music like a Baroque composer? Secondly, pretending in the way she did that the pianoforte that Bach knew is the same as today's grand piano is ludicrous. And besides, Bach did not write anything specifically for the fortepiano at all. Not to mention that a great deal of Bach's keyboard music is not quite as instrument-independent as Tureck implies, but was specifically written for organ or for harpsichord.

And that reference to Debussy in relation to the a minor prelude from WTC II was so weird and far-fetched that it was kind of scary.

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: laguna_greg] #2595520 12/17/16 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by laguna_greg
"Successful"? Oh My Dear, those arrangements were no more successful than a street walker in a medium-sized town, and with exactly the same degree of longevity and for exactly the same reasons. Nothing that will survive the tests of Time or Taste. Grammys were certainly not on the offing at the time, and now none are forthcoming. Guess sales are down right now...

You give it 50 years, and then we'll see just how "successful" these things really are.

So what?

Success means achieving the goals you set for yourself. I am pretty sure that neither Clayderman nor Gainsbourg wanted to create timeless masterpieces when they made Chopin arrangements. They wanted to reach a large audience in their time, and their record companies and concert promoters wanted to make money.

And they were all successful at that.

So who cares if nobody will listen to Clayderman in 50 years? Probably not even Clayderman.

But in 50 years, there may be other arrangements of Chopin and Bach, which will reflect the taste and fashion of their time. And as long as they work for the intended audience, there's nothing wrong with making them. The originals are still around.


My grand piano is a Yamaha C2 SG.
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Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: wr] #2595530 12/17/16 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
Not to mention that a great deal of Bach's keyboard music is not quite as instrument-independent as Tureck implies, but was specifically written for organ or for harpsichord.


...or clavichord.

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2595795 12/18/16 11:52 AM
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@wr -- Charles Rosen claimed that Bach's Musical Offering was the first great piano piece. Written specifically for the fortepianos belonging to Frederick the Great.


More Geese than Swans now live, more Fools than Wise.
Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2595804 12/18/16 12:21 PM
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In 6 staves!?

Re: Perhaps Chopin wasn't 'capable' of liking Rosalyn Tureck... [Re: scriabinfanatic] #2595833 12/18/16 02:27 PM
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I wonder how Bach would feel about this "arrangement"...

https://youtu.be/hnHUrQ6qWPQ


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