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Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? #2594212
12/12/16 03:48 PM
12/12/16 03:48 PM
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StartwithBach Offline OP
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Hi All- I am not talking about 2 on 3 (which is hard enough) in isolated patches of music. I am talking about relentless 4 on 3, measure after measure- i.e., Chopin's Opus 66. I have mathematically constructed exactly where the notes fall on charts (using Cook's Playing the Piano for Pleasure as a guide). I have used my hands on a table to beat out measures and hear exactly where the notes would fall. However, the actual act of putting together two lines seamlessly on the piano itself is so much of a hassle and undertaking, it has me wondering whether I really need to do this at all. What's your take on this? I'm ok not playing Scriabin or Chopin's F-I. Has anyone just given up on complex polyrhythm and pursued other music with no regrets? Any words of encouragement?

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Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594220
12/12/16 04:03 PM
12/12/16 04:03 PM
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ESPECIALLY with Chopin/Scriabin, you don't need to be mathematical with the rhythm. just play the notes that are together together and approximate the rest using the physical gesture.

Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594228
12/12/16 04:21 PM
12/12/16 04:21 PM
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I would have to say that mastering polyrhythms is an essential skill that you must learn and the Fantasie Impromptu is a good place to start. I work well with the mathematical model you described but some people find sentences helpful. In the case of 3/4 try one of these: "Pass the golden butter" or "I can play this rhythm." Both hands play at the same time on the first word, and alternate on the other words.

Using the math or sentence models enables your brain to develop the neural pathways that will eventually make this automatic. Start slowly and be very, very patient with yourself. Eventually, you will be able to leave the math and sentences behind and it will flow effortlessly. The essential lesson here is to be patient!


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594231
12/12/16 04:34 PM
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TheHappyPianoMuse Offline
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Chopin's Famatasie Impromptu foiled me for years ... through a number of degrees and diplomas. So much for pinning things down to formulas and drawing little lines joining some notes and between others. My first score looked like a mathematical equation in advanced physics. And confounded me equally.

Then decades after losing the war with this lovely piece, I had a student who insisted on learning it. Caught in the cross fire, I decided there was no way out. I had to learn the darned thing. I found the solution was fairly simple. I concentrated on the basic beat, exaggerating that beat until I had the right hand absolutely smooth. It MUST be smooth. You cannot be searching for the notes or you'll tip the boat. When the RH is smooth. Then tackle the left hand at exactly the same beat tempo ( which since there are only 3 notes to the beat, will of necessity sound a little slower. But KEEP that beat), Get the left hand completely fluent.

Now put them together. To do this, exaggerate the RH ... listen to it while you add the left hand ON each beat. It will be bumpy at first. But eventually, it will "click". You know you have it when you can easily exaggerate one hand and let the other "float". But the notes MUST be even. NO approximation for this particular piece. The beat is your "anchor". Keep that beat.

However in the Chopin Nocturne Op. 20 ... the only way to make it through the complex avalanches of notes is indeed to "approximate. The final page has four wonderful and very fast scales ... which you do indeed have to "fit" the LH into. The largest scale, an incredible 35 notes .... must flow over the basic 4 eighth notes without a hitch. To do this you have to slow down and employ some legerdemain of tempo.

I checked a large number of performances on YouTube to see how various pianists handled the problems in this postumously published Nocturne. The variation was considerable. blush

Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: gooddog] #2594237
12/12/16 05:03 PM
12/12/16 05:03 PM
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Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted by gooddog
In the case of 3/4 try one of these: "Pass the golden butter" or "I can play this rhythm."

Interesting. The ones I was taught were much less polite. grin


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: TheHappyPianoMuse] #2594242
12/12/16 05:18 PM
12/12/16 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TheHappyPianoMuse
[...]
However in the Chopin Nocturne Op. 20 ... the only way to make it through the complex avalanches of notes is indeed to "approximate. [...]


All that you say is good and to the point, except that there is no Nocturne, Op. 20 in Chopin's oeuvre. His Op. 20 is the Scherzo in B minor.

Doubtless you are referring to the "Lento con gran espressione" (not a Nocturne, officially) but which is frequently included in the publications of Nocturnes as number 20.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594244
12/12/16 05:23 PM
12/12/16 05:23 PM
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Maybe try and break the dependency of your hands with each other. As a more simple exercise, play hands together over a one octave range for each hand 2 octaves apart (play left hand C3 to C4 and right hand C5 to C6... or whichever octaves you choose). Play each hand at a different tempo. Don't be so technical and exact about it though. You're trying to create confusion in your hands and break the dependency of your left hand with your right. Play in constant time, play with rubato, etc.. This dependency is what you've trained your hands for over the years, and now you have to break it to operate your hands more freely.

Try this as a daily exercise, and then go back to Op 66 when you've gotten better at it.


TR

Last edited by TwelfthRoot2; 12/12/16 05:26 PM.
Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: Polyphonist] #2594318
12/12/16 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by gooddog
In the case of 3/4 try one of these: "Pass the golden butter" or "I can play this rhythm."

Interesting. The ones I was taught were much less polite. grin


You took the words right off of my keyboard!

The way I learn them is to slop them together and slowing start getting the timing correct. You can set up a click, play each hand separately 4 times, then 3 times, then 2 times, then try to play it together.

For me, the key to having a polyrhythm down is when I can feel the lower count beat. That way, I'm not just sticking in a note (or notes) in between some other notes, but there's truly two rhythms happening in my brain.

If there's a situation where someone thinks they don't need to have a polyrhythm 100% on, then it should probably be a deliberate artistic decision, not just a lack of hard work.

Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: Polyphonist] #2594326
12/12/16 11:18 PM
12/12/16 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by gooddog
In the case of 3/4 try one of these: "Pass the golden butter" or "I can play this rhythm."

Interesting. The ones I was taught were much less polite. grin

As was I, but... blush


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594344
12/12/16 11:52 PM
12/12/16 11:52 PM
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If you have free choice on music you play (meaning you're an amateur) then of course you can just ignore the pieces with extensive polyrhythms... There's no need for anyone to play FI (it's far from Chopin's best work) and there's plenty of Chopin and Scriabin you can still play. If you feel you cannot master those few pieces it's no big deal, no more than someone with small hands avoiding certain repertoire. The only issue is if you insist on playing them but do it badly...

But if you do want to, I think there are several ways to work on polyrhythms and it's a personal choice. For me the best way is to analyze and understand first, then get my hands playing them together until I hear the right result. Only after that will I achieve some automatization and my hands start to gain indepence. But that's my way and whatever works for you...

Last edited by outo; 12/12/16 11:56 PM.
Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594373
12/13/16 03:11 AM
12/13/16 03:11 AM
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I personally hate polyrhythms and have avoided learning FI. Some of the pieces I play have brief instances of polyrhythms (the Barcarolle, for instance) and I've managed to master them reasonable well, but I really don't feel like learning anything which uses them more frequently.

If you want nightmares, check out this etude:


Last edited by preludetr; 12/13/16 03:12 AM.
Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594417
12/13/16 09:09 AM
12/13/16 09:09 AM
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jdw Offline
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I enjoy polyrhythms myself--but there are lots of other reasons why I'm not up to playing FI! Two against three is still my favorite, because you can feel and hear the two rhythms so clearly. I'm not quite as keen on 3 against 4 and 5 against 2, which are in the music I'm learning now. I can play them but the musical goal is not as clear to me. Probably just need to work on them more.


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Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594427
12/13/16 09:46 AM
12/13/16 09:46 AM
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I've never had problems with polyrhythms actually. It's just aiming for the beat where the hands come together if the speed allows it. When playing for example, the slow 7 against 6 ending of op27 no2 I "aim" where the right hand should be between the notes of the left and vary that when going up to meet the hands on the beat. In time there's no need anymore to consciously play the polyrhythm as it goes automatically.

I would not calculate which fractures are there to find the common denominator in order to play these. Especially in romantic and late romantic like Chopin and Scriabin.


Paul

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Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594435
12/13/16 10:40 AM
12/13/16 10:40 AM
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It's best to learn to dissociate/desynchronize the hands and allow them to play at different tempi, then come together on specific notes. Once you've mastered that, you can play any polyrhythm easily - including those that include two prime numbers wink , like 13 against 7. (I challenge anyone to subdivide that mathematically......).

You can start by playing a regular arpeggio (say, C-E-G-C-G-E-C) in LH which you play perfectly evenly and repeatedly, then add on your own doodles in RH (or even a scale), and get specific notes to come together. For instance play C-D-E-F-G-F-E-D-C in RH and gradually (by speeding up or slowing down in RH) make the two low C's (played with pinky in LH and thumb in RH) come together, plus the upper C in LH come together with the G in RH. Guess what? - you're now playing a complex polyrhythm.

What it takes is to be able to play the notes in each hand perfectly evenly HS (practice them until you can), then play them HT and match them in accordance with what's on the score.

If you don't ever master the art of polyrhythm playing, you'll never be able to play beautiful (and actually quite simple) pieces like Chopin's Op.9/1 - and you do want to play that, don't you? wink


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594525
12/13/16 04:40 PM
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Bennevis, yes, I would love to play Chopin's Op. 9, No. 1! I eyed it many years ago and gave up because of the... polyrhythm.

Thank you to everyone who has weighed in on this. I appreciate the insightful comments and suggestions. I guess I'll make it a New Years resolution: if I can get a better handle on polyrhthm- especially the kind found in the Fantasie-Impromptu- I will consider it a great feat indeed.

And, outo, I am an adult amateur, so I have free reign to learn or not learn polyrhythm. This is true! However, I like a challenge, so we'll see where this goes!

Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: BruceD] #2594579
12/13/16 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by TheHappyPianoMuse
[...]
However in the Chopin Nocturne Op. 20 ... the only way to make it through the complex avalanches of notes is indeed to "approximate. [...]


All that you say is good and to the point, except that there is no Nocturne, Op. 20 in Chopin's oeuvre. His Op. 20 is the Scherzo in B minor.

Doubtless you are referring to the "Lento con gran espressione" (not a Nocturne, officially) but which is frequently included in the publications of Nocturnes as number 20.

Regards,


Thanks for solving a mystery. I downloaded this Nocturne some time ago from IMSLP ... where the title page listed it as No. 21 ( Les Editions Outremontaises) . I realized an error had been made since the Opus 21 is Piano Concerto No. 2. Apparently even as No. 21 ( rather than Opus 21 ) it is still an error. YouTube showed it as No. 20 to which I unconsciously prefixed "Opus" ...

And of course a quick check shows that the Opus 20 is the Scherzo. And you are quite correct in that all the other editions (except for the one I downloaded) correctly assign it a No. 20. One performance on YouTube adds a B49 to further compound the confusion. Now I'm puzzled as to how I found the score in the first place. Frankly I don't remember.

It was published 26 years after Chopin's death, apparently languishing in a private collection. Which gives me hope for my pieces languishing on the Internet. laugh

Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: chopinoholic] #2594616
12/13/16 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by chopinoholic
I've never had problems with polyrhythms actually. It's just aiming for the beat where the hands come together if the speed allows it. When playing for example, the slow 7 against 6 ending of op27 no2 I "aim" where the right hand should be between the notes of the left and vary that when going up to meet the hands on the beat. In time there's no need anymore to consciously play the polyrhythm as it goes automatically.

I would not calculate which fractures are there to find the common denominator in order to play these. Especially in romantic and late romantic like Chopin and Scriabin.


It took me a while to learn to do what you are describing in the ending of that nocturne. But I think the real reason was not so much the polyrhythm itself, but more that I didn't a good feel for playing the seven notes evenly. Seven per beat just hadn't become second nature to me. Even five notes per beat still feels a bit weird to me as well, although it is finally getting to feel more natural (after six decades of playing the piano!!).

There is a YouTube video of Garrick Ohlsson talking about Chopin in which he mentions the seven against six in the ending of op. 27, no. 2. I guess it is something of a bugaboo even among professionals. Arrau told him not to worry about getting it exact, but to cheat by simply alternating the hands. Personally, I think it sounds better if the sevens actually are a little more exact and smooth - the "floating away into the ether" effect comes off better that way, to my ear.

The helpfulness of working out the precise mathematics of a polyrhythm via the common denominator method seems to vary from person to person, and from example to example. I find it a useful thing to do sometimes, and sometimes I don't. It is often hard for me to predict if it will be of any use in advance; it has to be tried to find out. And too, regardless of how mathematically precise my playing is in the end, I will often feel better about it with the knowledge that at some point I did take the trouble to figure out exactly what was going mathematically, rather than just bashing my way through sort of, maybe, close to what is written. There is a kind of security in having done the math, for me.

(While writing this, it crossed my mind that a good New Year's resolution for me would be to work on the first of Brahms' 51 exercises, which methodically works through various polyrhythms. Hmmm...I need to think some more about that.)






Last edited by wr; 12/13/16 11:28 PM. Reason: fix a plural
Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2594635
12/13/16 11:14 PM
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4 against 3 is definitely worth learning because it occurs in lots of repertoire, and it often does need to be very rhythmic.
If you're struggling, just count it in 12 for a while, and add to your daily scale regimen either full 4x3 scales or something like LH CDEFGFED against RH CDEFED.
(This is assuming you already do 2x3 scales.)

Other more exotic polyrhythms... depends on the piece, and whether a more rhythmic or more improvisatory style is called for. (I do tend to see it much the way wr does: knowing the mathematically exact rhythm is helpful, whether or not I choose to play it that way. That way if I have rubato, I at least know what my rubato is.)


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Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: wr] #2594781
12/14/16 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by wr


(While writing this, it crossed my mind that a good New Year's resolution for me would be to work on the first of Brahms' 51 exercises, which methodically works through various polyrhythms. Hmmm...I need to think some more about that.)


I did that 1st Brahms exercise for a year before I finally got it smooth and even in both hands. My first teacher insisted that the delivery sound as if two different instruments were playing the polyrhythm, without any respect to one another except at the beats. I stopped having any difficulty with polyrhythms after that.

Figuring these things out arithmetically works very well for some people, and I sometimes use that method myself for the really exotic combinations. But the other method is generally how I teach it to my students. No matter how I get the ensemble worked out, I always try to give a perfectly smooth and even delivery. As Heather suggested, the rubato depends on you understanding how the rhythms work.


Laguna Greg

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Re: Complex Polyrhythm: How Detrimental is Failing to Master It? [Re: StartwithBach] #2595901
12/18/16 05:54 PM
12/18/16 05:54 PM
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Is 4 against 3 "complex polyrhythm"? I thought you were referring to 5 against 6 against 7 or so eek


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