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Question about a chord progression
#2590715 11/28/16 12:36 PM
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The tune Groove Merchant, which is in Bb, ends with this turn around:

Bb/F
D7/F#
G-7
Eb7
C-7
F7
Bb

I'm good with everything except the Eb7. Without that, it's a pretty basic I III vi ii V turnaround. The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?

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Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2590718 11/28/16 12:47 PM
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I don't understand the Eb7, which makes the Cm7 sound rather weak. Maybe an E°7 instead would sound better....

Re: Question about a chord progression
Eric399 #2590727 11/28/16 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jjo
The tune Groove Merchant, which is in Bb, ends with this turn around:

Bb/F
D7/F#
G-7
Eb7
C-7
F7
Bb

I'm good with everything except the Eb7. Without that, it's a pretty basic I III vi ii V turnaround. The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?


Originally Posted by Eric399
I don't understand the Eb7, which makes the Cm7 sound rather weak. Maybe an E°7 instead would sound better....


If you can replace Cm7 on Ab maj7, then Eb7 will be dominant and Cm7 - replacement for new tonic Abmaj7. All progression looks in the key of Bb May.


Last edited by Nahum; 11/28/16 01:06 PM.
Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2590949 11/29/16 12:24 PM
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Eric399: If you can play the progression in the context of the tune, I, at least, think the Eb7 sounds fine. It's a gospelly flavored jazz tunes, with a bit of a New Orleans feel.

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2592892 12/07/16 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jjo
The tune Groove Merchant, which is in Bb, ends with this turn around:

Bb/F
D7/F#
G-7
Eb7
C-7
F7
Bb

I'm good with everything except the Eb7. Without that, it's a pretty basic I III vi ii V turnaround. The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?


Keep in mind that is less than 1/2 the story. Starting one measure before and continuing multiple times in the second ending, the Eb7 functions in an entirely different manner.

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2592913 12/07/16 05:59 PM
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Emenelton: can you explain what you mean? Just before the turnaround the Eb7 is used in a pretty standard I-IV movement. How does that help explain its presence in the turnaround?

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2592919 12/07/16 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jjo
Emenelton: can you explain what you mean? Just before the turnaround the Eb7 is used in a pretty standard I-IV movement. How does that help explain its presence in the turnaround?


This chart:

http://www.guitarcats.com/realbook-jazz-standards/groove-merchant

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2592939 12/07/16 07:57 PM
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That's the chart I use. Forgive me but I don't get your point.

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2592944 12/07/16 08:13 PM
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I was talking about the Eb7 function in the 2nd ending.

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2593073 12/08/16 10:32 AM
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In the second ending, it makes some sense. That ending, in effect, starts a turnaround, aborts it, and starts it over again. The Eb7 served the function of getting you back to the tonic to start the turnaround again.

That, however, doesn't explain it's function in the first ending. Perhaps it's just one of those things that sounds good and doesn't need any further explanation!

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2593086 12/08/16 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jjo

That ending, in effect, starts a turnaround, aborts it, and starts it over again. The Eb7 served the function of getting you back to the tonic to start the turnaround again.

That, however, doesn't explain it's function in the first ending.


I'm not trying to be unclear but trying to start a conversation.
Nahum(sp) defined it's function correctly in the first ending. In the second ending the first two times it appears it has a different but all together common function.

In the 2nd ending the turn around is not started and then aborted either, also the Eb7 doesn't get you back to the tonic in the first ending, it is just a borrowed dominant resolving to cm7(per Nahum), it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F) in the second ending. That two bar progression appears three times in a row in the second ending; the third time heading into the turn-around.

My question is; what do you think the chord progression is in the 2nd ending?

The discussion of one is intertwined with the other.

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2593143 12/08/16 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jjo
Perhaps it's just one of those things that sounds good and doesn't need any further explanation!

Dead right! - and that's my guiding principle in everything in music. I've no use for the idea of function. Either these changes are commonplace or they're unusual, verging on odd/unpleasant....or they're somewhere in between. If you play a lot of music you recognise those things you've heard before, or you're pulled up with a start by something that sounds good but is original or quirky. Groove Merchant is a good jazz instrumental but nothing ground breaking.

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2593160 12/08/16 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jjo

The Eb7 is easy to play over and sounds like it fits right in. But what is it's function?


OPs' original inquiry

Once you understand the mechanics, you can identify these things in other songs.

Dire, I understand you are reacting to me, but applying your response to the OPs' first post is essentially telling him 'I reject the premise of your question. Dom.7th chords cannot have functions attributed to them'.

Last edited by emenelton; 12/08/16 01:39 PM.
Re: Question about a chord progression
emenelton #2593165 12/08/16 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by emenelton


Dire, I understand you are reacting to me, but applying your response to the OPs' first post is essentially telling him 'I don't value your question and I don't know the answer'.

True, I'm responding to both of you but a paraphrase of my response would be "there is no question to answer".


Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2593171 12/08/16 01:55 PM
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This is a blues ... not in 12-bar form, but a blues just the same. The Eb7 is a straight-up blues chord, IV7, every place it appears in the tune.

Re: Question about a chord progression
jjo #2593172 12/08/16 01:58 PM
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dire,

Fair enough.

I did change my post to not directly infer things to you but you must have copied it before I changed it.

If you look at the third beat of the forth measure of Misty, you'll see a dom. 7th. functioning the same way.

Re: Question about a chord progression
Mike A #2593177 12/08/16 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike A
This is a blues ... not in 12-bar form, but a blues just the same. The Eb7 is a straight-up blues chord, IV7, every place it appears in the tune.


I noticed you referred to the Eb7 as a IV7.

If you had to describe bars 13-18(through the second ending); with Roman Numerals, how would you?

Re: Question about a chord progression
emenelton #2593179 12/08/16 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by emenelton
If you look at the third beat of the forth measure of Misty, you'll see a dom. 7th. functioning the same way.

So, with Misty in 'C' you mean the Bb7 leading back to the Cma7.

Earlier, you say
Quote
...it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F)

But I take the tonal centre of Bb/F here as Bb, in which case we have Eb7 -> Bb, which isn't the same thing as your Misty change, above.

Re: Question about a chord progression
dire tonic #2593181 12/08/16 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dire tonic


So, with Misty in 'C' you mean the Bb7 leading back to the Cma7.

Earlier, you say
Quote
...it does however, 'get you back to the tonic' when it resolves directly to the temporary tonal center of F(Bb/F)

But I take the tonal centre of Bb/F here as Bb, in which case we have Eb7 -> Bb which isn't the same thing as your Misty change, above.


Yes to Misty.

Calling a chord a dominant is a description of it's function and a dominant chord's function is defined by what it resolves to. If you do a Roman Numeral analysis of 13-18(2nd. ending); what would it be?

Re: Question about a chord progression
emenelton #2593184 12/08/16 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by emenelton

Calling a chord a dominant is a description of it's function and a dominant chords function is defined by what it resolves to. If you do a Roman Numeral analysis of 13-18(2nd. ending); what would it be?

But if your dogma leads you in the wrong direction, you need to question the dogma.

As I said, the two fragments you've cited are quite different from each other.

If RNs are leading to an error, you have to wonder why.


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