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Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori #2587527 11/15/16 04:21 PM
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dolce sfogato Offline OP
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I have this strange or not so strange request to perform the sonata with the original slowish movement included, I tend to think:'yess', but keeping the intro to the rondo, what do you think?


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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587551 11/15/16 05:57 PM
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It is my understanding that Beethoven ultimately realized the conventional sounding Andante Favori (lovely as it is) was too long and might lessen the impact of the other more progressive movements of the Waldstein. The shorter intro to the Rondo - composed as a substitute for the Andante - seems much more stylistically consistent with the rest of the piece.

Perhaps you could perform the Andante as a stand alone work - followed by a performance of the Waldstein as written.



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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587556 11/15/16 06:11 PM
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If you are going to insert the Andante favori you definitely need to remove the introduction to the rondo.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587569 11/15/16 07:06 PM
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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587584 11/15/16 08:05 PM
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I think whoever made the request to play the AF wanted to hear how Beethoven's original conception sounds. So play ONLY the AF. Additonally, playing the AF and the later composed intro would be like playing both cadenzas for the Rach 3 in one performance.

Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: pianoloverus] #2587597 11/15/16 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think whoever made the request to play the AF wanted to hear how Beethoven's original conception sounds. So play ONLY the AF. Additonally, playing the AF and the later composed intro would be like playing both cadenzas for the Rach 3 in one performance.

I agree about the Andante favori.

But the two Rach cadenzas have been successfully combined into one by a few pianists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58wc_JGJqqE (from 24:50)


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: Polyphonist] #2587599 11/15/16 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
If you are going to insert the Andante favori you definitely need to remove the introduction to the rondo.

Agreed.

HOWEVER - Beethoven completed the Waldstein in 1804. He had another 23 years to "revise" it if he wanted to - but he didn't. I honestly don't see the point (other than mere curiosity) of compromising the integrity of this masterpiece by inserting the Andante favori in lieu of the introduction to the Rondo. smile




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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: Carey] #2587605 11/15/16 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Carey
Beethoven completed the Waldstein in 1804. He had another 23 years to "revise" it if he wanted to - but he didn't. I honestly don't see the point (other than mere curiosity) of compromising the integrity of this masterpiece by inserting the Andante favori in lieu of the introduction to the Rondo.

Carey, I completely agree. (And this is a sonata I have performed, FWIW.)

As a separate piece, I love the Andante favori, and IMO it makes a lovely addition on its own to a recital.

But to question Beethoven's second thoughts? That seems rather arrogant to me, the same mentality which would add the 'Blumine' movement (clearly inferior, and rejected) to Mahler's First.

Of course there will be exceptions, and debates are still alive and kicking over earlier versions of Schumann and Liszt.


Jason
Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587705 11/16/16 10:53 AM
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Why not play the waldstein and then play the andante as a separate piece in the same recital?

Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: bennevis] #2587726 11/16/16 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think whoever made the request to play the AF wanted to hear how Beethoven's original conception sounds. So play ONLY the AF. Additonally, playing the AF and the later composed intro would be like playing both cadenzas for the Rach 3 in one performance.

I agree about the Andante favori.

But the two Rach cadenzas have been successfully combined into one by a few pianists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58wc_JGJqqE (from 24:50)
But I bet they didn't play one after the other as proposed by the OP.

Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587815 11/16/16 04:14 PM
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Since the introduction to the last movement was a replacement for the original Andante, I would leave it out if playing the Andante. We know that at different times, either version would be something Beethoven had thought of doing; playing both together doesn't seem to be something he ever considered.

But, regardless of that, playing both would just do strange things to the form, I think.

I like the concept of hearing the sonata in the very large format that was Beethoven's idea of it during its main period of composition. After all, making the shorter version wasn't even his own idea.

Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587826 11/16/16 04:53 PM
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Gee - I can't wait until someone decides to play all three of the Leonore Overtures at the beginning of a full performance of Fidelio in addition to the fourth overture that Beethoven composed - and finally settled on - for that opera. ha

And speaking of Schumann - I'm reminded of those extra "variations" that ultimately were not included in the final version of the Symphonic Etudes. From time to time, you'll hear a performance that includes one of two of those - but IMHO they pale by comparison to the other variations in that monumental work.




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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587834 11/16/16 05:18 PM
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This reminds me of issues around the *Grosse Fugue*. If you're performing or recording the complete Beethoven string quartets, the easiest solution is to play op.130 with the alternate last movement, and the Fugue as a totally separate piece. But if you're the Takács Quartet playing the complete quartets in Berkeley, as they're doing, and you decide to play op.130 with its original fugue ending, as they did... then where oh where does the poor, perfectly respectable alternative ending to 130 go? Very sad!


-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587841 11/16/16 05:44 PM
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Beethoven was insulted by Ries, his pupil, who played the AF a week after his playing it to him, as a part of the whole sonata (before print), then some (Czerny) said the thing was too long, all that made him decide to write some 'intro' to the finale instead of the AF, the composer was just angry and decided to do something else, however never forgetting his AF, and playing it frequently. The 1st mov. is full of tension, methinks, the 'new' intro also, the finale is relaxed, oh yes!, but the AF is also very relaxed, so the incorporation of the AF would mean: tension-relaxation-tension-relaxation, a win-win-situation...I already, just, performed it that way, with explanation why, and it was a succes. I also always repeat the 'Grave'-section of the op.13, even Beethoven can be surprising after all those years, and about the Grosse Fuge: that's a different thing all together, 2 really different finales, the AF and the intro (of but a few minutes) don't bite, they just enlarge the emotinal range of the piece and they don't compete, they complement each other within the sonata. I'll stick to this .


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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587857 11/16/16 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
The 1st mov. is full of tension, methinks, the 'new' intro also, the finale is relaxed, oh yes!, but the AF is also very relaxed, so the incorporation of the AF would mean: tension-relaxation-tension-relaxation, a win-win-situation...
But using your argument recommending alternating tension and relaxation one could argue that Beethoven's original conception of TRR or revision with TTR are both flawed.

Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587863 11/16/16 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
Beethoven was insulted by Ries, his pupil, who played the AF a week after his playing it to him, as a part of the whole sonata (before print), then some (Czerny) said the thing was too long, all that made him decide to write some 'intro' to the finale instead of the AF, the composer was just angry and decided to do something else, however never forgetting his AF, and playing it frequently. The 1st mov. is full of tension, methinks, the 'new' intro also, the finale is relaxed, oh yes!, but the AF is also very relaxed, so the incorporation of the AF would mean: tension-relaxation-tension-relaxation, a win-win-situation...I already, just, performed it that way, with explanation why, and it was a succes. I also always repeat the 'Grave'-section of the op.13, even Beethoven can be surprising after all those years, and about the Grosse Fuge: that's a different thing all together, 2 really different finales, the AF and the intro (of but a few minutes) don't bite, they just enlarge the emotinal range of the piece and they don't compete, they complement each other within the sonata. I'll stick to this .
Whether he was angry or not, the composer did indeed ultimately decide to do something else. But, of course, as a performer, you are free to do whatever you wish. I'm sure your audience appreciated the opportunity to learn something (that they might not have known) about the evolution of the Waldstein. Glad it worked out well for you. smile



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Re: Beethoven Waldstein Andante favori [Re: dolce sfogato] #2590498 11/27/16 04:43 PM
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btw, everyone is playing the posthumus variations into the whole of Schumann's op.13 and they are right.


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