2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
28 registered members (Greta99, dima5222, hzxasdf, AntonioCastas, accordeur, djvu10, 7 invisible), 254 guests, and 378 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Musical meaning of "augmenter" #2587240 11/14/16 10:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,675
Arghhh Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,675
I'm playing the song "J'ai ferme mon coeur" (sorry I don't remember the keystroke to give an accent aigu...) by the Canadian composer Jean Coulthard which has instructions containing the word "augmentez". This word I would translate to "increase" in English. I am unclear whether this means to increase just the sound, as in a crescendo, or to increase the speed, or both.

For example, in ms. 9-10 there is a 2ms. hairpin crescendo to forte, and above that is "Augmentez Progressivement", then ms. 11-12 is a hairpin decrescendo to piano, and above that it says "Dim. et retenue". It seems the "Dim" is redundant.

There is another "Augmentez" later in the piece, also accompanied by dynamic changes.


Is there a standard meaning in music for augmentez?


Professional pianist and piano teacher.
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods, and more!
Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: Arghhh] #2587320 11/15/16 01:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
The way I've seen other composers us this is most often as an indication to increase the tempo. But it varies a lot by context. Debussy uses this in many instances to mean an increase in BOTH tempo and and dynamics, as it does in Poulenc in his songs And Faure, and Ravel, and Reynaldo Hahn, and Andre Caplet, et cetera.

How do you think the composer is using the term? What makes the most sense to you?

Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: Arghhh] #2587522 11/15/16 05:08 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,990
D
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,990
'augmentez' means 'to become greater', in french music it is often used to broaden the tempo and increase the volume, NOT to increase the speed, to the contrary.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587523 11/15/16 05:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
'augmentez' means 'to become greater', in french music it is often used to broaden the tempo and increase the volume, NOT to increase the speed, to the contrary.


thumb +1

Edit: Think 'expand'

Last edited by prout; 11/15/16 05:16 PM.
Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: prout] #2587610 11/15/16 11:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
laguna_greg Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,906
well I disagree.

Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: Arghhh] #2587619 11/16/16 12:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,675
Arghhh Offline OP
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,675
I had found "expand" in one of the music dictionaries online too. Thing is, in this music, the sections under "augmenter" had faster notes (mostly 16th and 32nd as opposed to eighths). Wouldn't it be strange to write faster notes in the score, but then want to slow down the tempo?


Professional pianist and piano teacher.
Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: Arghhh] #2587622 11/16/16 12:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
beet31425 Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
My Alfred Masterworks edition of the Debussy preludes translates "augmentez" as "increase, enlarge, get louder", and "augmentez progressivement" as "crescendo continually". So they think it refers to volume and not speed.

But rather than argue it abstractly, let's look at the Preludes themselves. I found "augmentez" in two Book I preludes:

-- In "Ce qu'a vu le lent d'Ouest", there are indications marked "En serrant et augmentant", and "serrez et augmentez". Now "serrez" and "serrant" definitely mean to get faster; this suggests to me that the "augment"ing is telling us to get louder.

-- In "La Cathédral engloutie", there is the indication "augmentez progressivement (sans presser)". I think this is pretty strong evidence: he's telling us to augment, without going faster. "Augmentez" must mean to get louder. (And, indeed, in this particular passage, everyone gets louder without speeding up.)

-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: beet31425] #2587678 11/16/16 09:22 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Well beat-pi, that about answers it. Thanks.

Don't speed up when you see 'augmenter'.

Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: prout] #2587728 11/16/16 12:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
beet31425 Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
Originally Posted by prout
Well beat-pi...


Funny: pi starts out 3.1415, not the 31425 of my username. But it comes from the old security code we had to punch in to get to the computer rooms in math grad school, which was mnemonically described to us as "pi and a quarter".

-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: beet31425] #2587734 11/16/16 01:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by prout
Well beat-pi...


Funny: pi starts out 3.1415, not the 31425 of my username. But it comes from the old security code we had to punch in to get to the computer rooms in math grad school, which was mnemonically described to us as "pi and a quarter".

-J


confirmation bias on my part. i saw 314 and assumed the rest. never got past 3.1415928 on memory though.

Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: Arghhh] #2587754 11/16/16 02:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,707
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,707
The French words literally mean "progressively increase" or "become more". Wouldn't the nature of the music itself give some feeling to what this is about. "Sans presser" does not mean not to speed up, but not to rush.

Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: keystring] #2587780 11/16/16 03:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Originally Posted by keystring
The French words literally mean "progressively increase" or "become more". Wouldn't the nature of the music itself give some feeling to what this is about. "Sans presser" does not mean not to speed up, but not to rush.


Being a literalist and a bit of a physicist, two things come to mind.

1) The verb 'presser' is most commonly used to mean 'push' or 'quicken' in a musical context.

2) One cannot speed up anything unless one imparts a 'push' (force) to the objects current velocity.

Therefore, it is reasonable to assume the Debussy, who left little of his music unmarked, meant by 'sans presser', don't get faster.

Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: dolce sfogato] #2587795 11/16/16 04:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 659
SonatainfSharp Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 659
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
'augmentez' means 'to become greater', in french music it is often used to broaden the tempo and increase the volume, NOT to increase the speed, to the contrary.

Yes, as opposed to the opposite, which would be some form of the word stringendo.

Both augmentation and stringendo come from fugues: Augmentation to increase the note value of each note in the subject (modern: to slow down, broaden), and stringendo to decrease the note value of each note in the subject (modern: speed up, accel).


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!
Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony [2017]
Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: Arghhh] #2587796 11/16/16 04:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 659
SonatainfSharp Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 659
Originally Posted by Arghhh
I had found "expand" in one of the music dictionaries online too. Thing is, in this music, the sections under "augmenter" had faster notes (mostly 16th and 32nd as opposed to eighths). Wouldn't it be strange to write faster notes in the score, but then want to slow down the tempo?

Nope, not at all. Broaden the overall tempo so that the faster notes don't get lost and don't come across as a rushed mess.


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!
Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony [2017]
Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: Arghhh] #2587801 11/16/16 04:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Look at the fioritura in Chopin. Keeping the same tempo would create a very unmusical line. In many cases they occur near the end of a phrase after a rit. marking.

Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: prout] #2587813 11/16/16 05:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,707
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,707
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by keystring
The French words literally mean "progressively increase" or "become more". Wouldn't the nature of the music itself give some feeling to what this is about. "Sans presser" does not mean not to speed up, but not to rush.


Being a literalist and a bit of a physicist, two things come to mind.

1) The verb 'presser' is most commonly used to mean 'push' or 'quicken' in a musical context.

2) One cannot speed up anything unless one imparts a 'push' (force) to the objects current velocity.

Therefore, it is reasonable to assume the Debussy, who left little of his music unmarked, meant by 'sans presser', don't get faster.

You can have a hurried and rushed manner, or you can leisurely and gracefully speed up.

Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: SonatainfSharp] #2587981 11/17/16 10:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 659
SonatainfSharp Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 659
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
[quote=dolce sfogato]
Both augmentation and stringendo come from fugues: Augmentation to increase the note value of each note in the subject (modern: to slow down, broaden), and stringendo to decrease the note value of each note in the subject (modern: speed up, accel).


Oh, dear, I must have been tired.

Stringendo from a fugue means that the subject re-enters sooner than it was when the second voice was first introduced. In modern applications, it means to speed up as you are playing subsequent notes sooner.

Diminution is when the subject is reduced in note values...sorry!


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!
Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony [2017]
Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: keystring] #2588060 11/17/16 03:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
P
prout Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,468
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by keystring
The French words literally mean "progressively increase" or "become more". Wouldn't the nature of the music itself give some feeling to what this is about. "Sans presser" does not mean not to speed up, but not to rush.


Being a literalist and a bit of a physicist, two things come to mind.

1) The verb 'presser' is most commonly used to mean 'push' or 'quicken' in a musical context.

2) One cannot speed up anything unless one imparts a 'push' (force) to the object's current velocity.

Therefore, it is reasonable to assume the Debussy, who left little of his music unmarked, meant by 'sans presser', don't get faster.

You can have a hurried and rushed manner, or you can leisurely and gracefully speed up.


Even gracefully speeding up requires a push (force) - no push, no speed up, unless you know something the laws of physics of which the rest of the world is ignorant. I really do have to assume that when Debussy says 'sans presser' he means 'without ze push' and, therefore, without getting faster.

Re: Musical meaning of "augmenter" [Re: Arghhh] #2588249 11/18/16 09:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,390
hreichgott Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,390
I believe augmenter is the word for increase in volume, and serrez is the word for increase in tempo.


Heather W. Reichgott, piano

Working on:
Beethoven - Diabelli Variations Op. 120
Beethoven/Liszt - Symphony no. 7
Tommy (whole show)

I love Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and new music

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Musician's Hand Sanitizer available in our online store (and our Maple Street Music shop in Cornish Maine). Antibacterial, 62% ethyl alcohol. Hand Sanitizer for Musicians
Tons more music related products in our online store!
(ad)
Pianoforall
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Differences between C Bechstein C232 vs C234
by Michiyo-Fir - 04/02/20 07:34 PM
New buyer, need help deciding!
by Kebo - 04/02/20 04:27 PM
Kawai CA-58 Issues?
by darksecretagent - 04/02/20 03:27 PM
How to re-program notes assigned to keys?
by jhampton18873 - 04/02/20 02:33 PM
Help me re-structure my lessons
by Ido - 04/02/20 01:52 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics197,880
Posts2,941,487
Members96,459
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3