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My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 #2568708
09/05/16 05:10 AM
09/05/16 05:10 AM
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ShoeiHat Offline OP
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Hello. This will be my first post on the forum and I wanted to share my experiences of these 3 instruments.

Buying a digital piano for silent practice has been on my mind for many years but not something I had looked in to seriously until, on the off chance, I happened to be pop in to the local piano shop on Saturday.

While there I tried out the Roland LX17 and was pleasantly surprised to find how nice it was to play. It changed my perception of how good a DP could be. I didn't play it for long but went home and started some internet research.

This revealed that I might be better off with a Kawai CS11 due to it's 'real' action as I wanted it to feel as close to a piano (in my mind!) as possible.

So on Sunday I drove 2 1/2 hours to the only shop that was guaranteed to have the Roland and the Kawai side by side for a proper comparison. Excitedly I sat jumped in front of the Kawai and started it playing. It felt amazing. The texture and weight of the keys seemed perfect and for a moment it seemed like DP heaven but then it started to dawn on me that it didn't really sound very good. I flicked through the various piano sounds but they all sounded very false and, to make matters worse, the sound didn't seem very consistent from key to key with some very abrupt changes in tone - I couldn't control the melody in Chopin Op. 10, No. 3 at all.

I went over to the Roland LX7 (not the LX17 as I planned to use headphones a lot so the extra speakers weren't worth it to me). To me there was a night and day difference between this and the Kawai in terms of sound and control however the Kawai still have the better 'feel' to it's keys. Also the Roland has a very loud keyboard. The Kawai is virtually silent while the Roland thuds down and clatters back up again. There is also a distinct 'swish' as each key moves.

That was a good time for a lunch break and after lunch I sat down to the Roland LX7 and went berserk on it (with the headphones on). I had a great time and it was joy to play but still didn't feel right.

I went back to the Kawai and felt no joy at all about playing it. There seemed to be no connection between what my fingers were doing and the sounds coming from the speakers or headphones. It had a mind of it's own, completely disconnected from me. It was a huge let down. Another irritating point about it is the music desk is a long way forward - at least half way along the black notes - and I kept whacking my hands against it.

I hadn't considered a Yamaha Clavinova but thought I'd give it a go. I opted to try the CLP 585 (not knowing then that it is the only CLP with the counterweight action). To me, Yamaha pianos always have a distinct feel - I can't put my finger on it (no pun intended!) - and the 585 seemed to carry this same feel. There was a Yamaha Grand Piano right next to the 585 so I took a moment to compare them and, though different, they felt like they were from the same family. Anyway, to cut a very long story short I ended up buying the 585. It made the Kawai sound like a toy keyboard and had a definition to the keys that the Roland couldn't match - and though they keys weren't as quiet as the Kawai they had less thud than the Roland and none of the clatter.

It was a close call between the Roland and the Yamaha. The 585 looks much nicer than the LX7 and sounds better - although upgrading to the LX17 would have looked nicer and improved the sound a bit however the LX17 was significantly more expensive than the 585. The Yamaha still has the better keyboard in my opinion.

The moral of the story is don't waste time reading all the long winded reviews like the one I just wrote above. Go and play them all side by side and you'll be as surprised as I was that end up dismissing the one you thought you wanted to buy and buying the one you never thought you would...

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Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568710
09/05/16 05:50 AM
09/05/16 05:50 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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ShoeiHat, welcome to the forum, thank you for sharing your shopping experiences, and congrats on your new piano!

Originally Posted by ShoeiHat
The moral of the story is don't waste time reading all the long winded reviews like the one I just wrote above. Go and play them all side by side and you'll be as surprised as I was that end up dismissing the one you thought you wanted to buy and buying the one you never thought you would...


Great advice!

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568713
09/05/16 06:05 AM
09/05/16 06:05 AM
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MacMacMac Offline
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A good point this:
Originally Posted by ShoeiHat
The moral of the story is don't waste time reading all the long winded reviews like the one I just wrote above. Go and play them all side by side ...

I may soon be looking for a new piano. I own an eight-year-old Clavinova, and I'm no longer happy with it.

The sound is poor (so I use VST software), and the action is heavy and unrealistic and a bit rough in spots. So after reading so much here about Kawai pianos these last few years I was of a mind to try some ... and was likewise dismissive of the Yamahas.

I'm leaning toward the Kawai VPC, which will let me shave a couple of thousand off the price of a new console. But your point about the Yamahas has me intrigued. I hope I can find a dealer who carries both Yamaha and Kawai so that I can make the comparison.

Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568714
09/05/16 06:19 AM
09/05/16 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ShoeiHat
Another irritating point about it (CS11) is the music desk is a long way forward - at least half way along the black notes - and I kept whacking my hands against it.
That's what I also was talking about here, explaining, why I will never comeback to console/furniture type digital pianos (and there are other reasons for me as well).

Originally Posted by 9190
[…] all furniture-style digital pianos have music holders which *located* very low and close (like CS11 etc.) just above the hands […]

So, in this regard for me both CS11 and CLP585 or LX7/17 have music desks too low and some of them too close to hands (and this is not adjustable). That's upright style which I don't like. When I was practicing on my acoustic upright at home or in Academy, I've never put sheet music on the dedicated music desk, and put on the top of the key cover lid. With console digital pianos you can't do even this.

I've bought my digital stage piano reading forums and reviews, because I didn't have any chance to check it by myself. And I'm happy with it.


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Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: MacMacMac] #2568727
09/05/16 07:32 AM
09/05/16 07:32 AM
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ShoeiHat Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

I'm leaning toward the Kawai VPC, which will let me shave a couple of thousand off the price of a new console. But your point about the Yamahas has me intrigued. I hope I can find a dealer who carries both Yamaha and Kawai so that I can make the comparison.


I don't have much experience with older Yamahas. I did try some various digital pianos around 6-7 years ago (possibly including Yamahas) and dismissed them all as unrealistic in both touch and sound. Perhaps things have come a long way since then.

AFAIK the 585 is the only one with the new action so it will be a lot different from your old one. Had I known it had a different action I would have tried the 575 sitting next to it but I assumed they were the same so I didn't bother.

I'm very surprised how bad the Kawai was for me personally. Perhaps the one in the shop was a duff one.

Quote

So, in this regard for me both CS11 and CLP585 or LX7/17 have music desks too low and some of them too close to hands (and this is not adjustable).


They are all low but the CS11 is the first offender for being so far forward. At least the 585 and LX7/17 have the desk towards the back of the keys. If the top of the 585 cabinet is about the same height as my grand I might end up using the top of the piano.

Quote

I've bought my digital stage piano reading forums and reviews, because I didn't have any chance to check it by myself. And I'm happy with it.


Fair enough. If I'd bought the Roland LX having played it in isolation and read the reviews I'd have been happy with it. I only tracked down one short review of the CS11 (somewhere on this site I believe) and they mentioned the feeling of disconnection. But I did read glowing reviews of the CA97 - which seems to be the same thing in a cheaper cabinet.

Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568733
09/05/16 07:55 AM
09/05/16 07:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,023
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by ShoeiHat
Hello. This will be my first post on the forum and I wanted to share my experiences of these 3 instruments.

Buying a digital piano for silent practice has been on my mind for many years but not something I had looked in to seriously until, on the off chance, I happened to be pop in to the local piano shop on Saturday.

While there I tried out the Roland LX17 and was pleasantly surprised to find how nice it was to play. It changed my perception of how good a DP could be. I didn't play it for long but went home and started some internet research.

This revealed that I might be better off with a Kawai CS11 due to it's 'real' action as I wanted it to feel as close to a piano (in my mind!) as possible.

So on Sunday I drove 2 1/2 hours to the only shop that was guaranteed to have the Roland and the Kawai side by side for a proper comparison. Excitedly I sat jumped in front of the Kawai and started it playing. It felt amazing. The texture and weight of the keys seemed perfect and for a moment it seemed like DP heaven but then it started to dawn on me that it didn't really sound very good. I flicked through the various piano sounds but they all sounded very false and, to make matters worse, the sound didn't seem very consistent from key to key with some very abrupt changes in tone - I couldn't control the melody in Chopin Op. 10, No. 3 at all.

I went over to the Roland LX7 (not the LX17 as I planned to use headphones a lot so the extra speakers weren't worth it to me). To me there was a night and day difference between this and the Kawai in terms of sound and control however the Kawai still have the better 'feel' to it's keys. Also the Roland has a very loud keyboard. The Kawai is virtually silent while the Roland thuds down and clatters back up again. There is also a distinct 'swish' as each key moves.

That was a good time for a lunch break and after lunch I sat down to the Roland LX7 and went berserk on it (with the headphones on). I had a great time and it was joy to play but still didn't feel right.

I went back to the Kawai and felt no joy at all about playing it. There seemed to be no connection between what my fingers were doing and the sounds coming from the speakers or headphones. It had a mind of it's own, completely disconnected from me. It was a huge let down. Another irritating point about it is the music desk is a long way forward - at least half way along the black notes - and I kept whacking my hands against it.

I hadn't considered a Yamaha Clavinova but thought I'd give it a go. I opted to try the CLP 585 (not knowing then that it is the only CLP with the counterweight action). To me, Yamaha pianos always have a distinct feel - I can't put my finger on it (no pun intended!) - and the 585 seemed to carry this same feel. There was a Yamaha Grand Piano right next to the 585 so I took a moment to compare them and, though different, they felt like they were from the same family. Anyway, to cut a very long story short I ended up buying the 585. It made the Kawai sound like a toy keyboard and had a definition to the keys that the Roland couldn't match - and though they keys weren't as quiet as the Kawai they had less thud than the Roland and none of the clatter.

It was a close call between the Roland and the Yamaha. The 585 looks much nicer than the LX7 and sounds better - although upgrading to the LX17 would have looked nicer and improved the sound a bit however the LX17 was significantly more expensive than the 585. The Yamaha still has the better keyboard in my opinion.

The moral of the story is don't waste time reading all the long winded reviews like the one I just wrote above. Go and play them all side by side and you'll be as surprised as I was that end up dismissing the one you thought you wanted to buy and buying the one you never thought you would...


Even though the LX-17 is v. expensive, I would chose it over the LX-7, as the speaker system in the LX-7 is nowhere near as good as the LX-17. What I would say is that the sound is less important if you can get a competitive sound via pianoteq with the Kawai or Yamaha.

You like the feel of the Yamaha action better, I have the opposite preference, but do prefer the CS11 grand feel II action over the PHA-50 Roland action. The problem with the Yamaha is their piano sample: it's years behind the Roland's modelling. However, the Yamaha sound seems to suit a bit of Bach.

I don't know if you could get a competitive sound using pianoteq + CS11 speaker system or the CLP585, that would be a good experiment. Having played all three side by side in Forsyths, Manchester, I felt the LX-17 was the easy winner. If you intend to get the LX-7, my feeling is that a great pair of headphones would make sense, because it sounds like a toy compared to the LX-17's speaker system.

Personally, if I were going to spend over £4000 on the LX-17, I'd probably consider it against the Avant Grand N1 plus pianoteq: that's one Yamaha action that the others can't get near.

Last edited by Doug M.; 09/05/16 07:59 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
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Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: Doug M.] #2568740
09/05/16 08:28 AM
09/05/16 08:28 AM
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ShoeiHat Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Doug M.

Even though the LX-17 is v. expensive, I would chose it over the LX-7, as the speaker system in the LX-7 is nowhere near as good as the LX-17.


True but the speaker system wasn't important to me. It will be mostly headphones to protect the rest of the household.

I liked the LX action to play but it is noisy and somehow it just reminded me of my cheapo Casio weighted keyboard which is gathering dust in the loft. That ruined the illusion for me.

The mechanics of the CS11 action felt wonderful but a combination of the seemingly random behaviour of the sensors and the pretty poor samples (in my opinion) made it the least like playing a real piano. I really wanted to love this piano. (I've just read another post highlighting the voicing in the CA67/CA97/CS11 family having a mind of its own).

The LX-17 probably is the best sounding one but I don't need it's sound system. After that, in my opinion, the 585 beats the LX-7.

2 days ago I knew nothing about DPs and nothing about whether or not Yamaha have been neglecting customers for years with poor quality samples or the merits of modeling vs samples or any other preconceptions or bias towards one brand or another. I just liked what I heard!

P.S. The AvantGrand was ruled out on size and, to some extent, price otherwise yes that would have been a no-brainer! BTW I did try the NU-1 as well but I don't like Yamaha upright actions so to me all 3 of the fake pseudo-grand piano actions felt better.

Last edited by ShoeiHat; 09/05/16 08:35 AM.
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568750
09/05/16 09:37 AM
09/05/16 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ShoeiHat


2 days ago I knew nothing about DPs and nothing about whether or not Yamaha have been neglecting customers for years with poor quality samples or the merits of modeling vs samples or any other preconceptions or bias towards one brand or another. I just liked what I heard!


That makes your review all the more valuable. Nice immediate and fresh insights.

Originally Posted by ShoeiHat

I don't like Yamaha upright actions so to me all 3 of the fake pseudo-grand piano actions felt better.


Personal opinions here, of course, but I agree with this. There may be fine upright actions in existence but I've not come across one. Even a mediocre (though not low end budget) DP action is a great deal more useful in terms of expressive potential than the uprights and I've played.


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Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568754
09/05/16 09:46 AM
09/05/16 09:46 AM
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I had very much the same feelings as you when I tested those pianos but ended up buying the Kawai CA67 anyway, because I'm extremely action biased. I will probably be spending another 1000$ this year to upgrade the sound.

I only disagree about NW-X > PHA50, Yamaha seemed to try to fix the lightness in the keys by making the NW unrealistic stiff, then they fixed that on their topmodel 585 with counterweights. Another fix for a fix and it still requires a little too much initial force. I prefer rolands approach over that and stand proud with a durable light action.

I think the issue with key volume/velocity changes during melody on the Kawai is only on certain faulty models in circulation, some time ago somebody posted some pictures of his with uneven aligned keys. My current CA67 does not have that problem, neither did my previous CA67 which I sent back because of too much key noises.





Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568759
09/05/16 10:13 AM
09/05/16 10:13 AM
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I wish this were true:
Originally Posted by ShoeiHat
AFAIK the 585 is the only one with the new action so it will be a lot different from your old one.
Yamaha hasn't changed their action in nearly two decades.

Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: MacMacMac] #2568762
09/05/16 10:26 AM
09/05/16 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wish this were true:
Originally Posted by ShoeiHat
AFAIK the 585 is the only one with the new action so it will be a lot different from your old one.
Yamaha hasn't changed their action in nearly two decades.


OK the one with the added counterweights

Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568764
09/05/16 10:35 AM
09/05/16 10:35 AM
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I wonder if I can manage to articulate my thoughts. In my experience of being a student getting guidance over the past few years, it has happened over and over that I start to hear what I didn't hear before, or become aware of sensations that did not exist before. It is like something dull and undefined gets clear in bursts, and while in the "dull" embryonic stage, I don't know something is missing. Also, when lacking a skill, you don't know whether the music you produce isn't doing what you want because of lacking skill, or the instrument. In fact, when you make a leap, then you'll know for the first time that something was missing in your playing, and what was missing.
All that makes it hard to go into a store and try out instruments. I felt that as I was reading Shoeihat's story. So far I've only gone into a store once, played a Roland (don't know which one) and the Kawai 97 and 67. There was an expressive thing via dynamics that I got on the Kawai but not on the Roland, and I couldn't hear any difference in soft pedal on the Roland. This much I got.
I now have the general experience of "low end piano" (what I have presently) and "better quality piano", but that doesn't mean that I might know how to judge among the better quality pianos. I am thinking esp. of the OP's experience of the piano's sound not reflecting what he was playing; while for me I would think that I haven't managed to play what I envision because my technique isn't up to it and I'm not sure I could tell - unless another piano gives me this.
When I got back to my current, low end piano, I could hear the relative shallowness of the sound, but before that I was unaware of it.

In regards to the advice to not read reviews and just go out and play, I found that reading the reviews has helped me immensely, because when it came to what I was hearing while playing, I couldn't always orient myself. If you are experienced and well trained maybe. I suspect that it also helps if you have played grand pianos a lot, and have a sound in your ears already. When someone is coming from a poor dp to a better one, what do we compare what we here TO? In writing this, I have had the serious thought that maybe it would be good to rent time for playing on an actual grand (the local Yamaha store does that) in order to have some kind of a sense.

Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568765
09/05/16 10:37 AM
09/05/16 10:37 AM
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Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by ShoeiHat
Originally Posted by Doug M.

Even though the LX-17 is v. expensive, I would chose it over the LX-7, as the speaker system in the LX-7 is nowhere near as good as the LX-17.


True but the speaker system wasn't important to me. It will be mostly headphones to protect the rest of the household.

I liked the LX action to play but it is noisy and somehow it just reminded me of my cheapo Casio weighted keyboard which is gathering dust in the loft. That ruined the illusion for me.

The mechanics of the CS11 action felt wonderful but a combination of the seemingly random behaviour of the sensors and the pretty poor samples (in my opinion) made it the least like playing a real piano. I really wanted to love this piano. (I've just read another post highlighting the voicing in the CA67/CA97/CS11 family having a mind of its own).

The LX-17 probably is the best sounding one but I don't need it's sound system. After that, in my opinion, the 585 beats the LX-7.

2 days ago I knew nothing about DPs and nothing about whether or not Yamaha have been neglecting customers for years with poor quality samples or the merits of modeling vs samples or any other preconceptions or bias towards one brand or another. I just liked what I heard!

P.S. The AvantGrand was ruled out on size and, to some extent, price otherwise yes that would have been a no-brainer! BTW I did try the NU-1 as well but I don't like Yamaha upright actions so to me all 3 of the fake pseudo-grand piano actions felt better.


Get where you're comming from on the speakers vs headphones issue.

In that case, the real comparison is:
1) Action: LX-7 vs CLP585 vs CS11
2) Sound tone e.g.,
Modelled Roland vs.....
a) Sampled CLP585
b) Sampled CS11
c) CLP585 + laptop with pianoteq preinstalled
d) CS11 + laptop with pianoteq preinstalled.

Best solution would be to find yourself a Laptop powerful enough to run a latency free Pianoteq, and take that to the piano store along with a great pair of headphones.

First, I would leave the 3 instruments off: test the feel and noise of the LX7, CLP585 and CS11 actions without any instrument sound to bias the comparision.

Second: compare the LX-7 with the CLP585 and CS11. Maybe prepare a few pieces that represent a cross section of the tunes/styles you are likely to play, and see which instrument fits best.

Third: see if pianoteq (Steinway D, Model B grand, or Bluthner model 1 are the likely suitable instruments) can give the CLP585 &/or CS11 a lift up to the lX-7's level.


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Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: Pocomoto] #2568766
09/05/16 10:40 AM
09/05/16 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Pocomoto

I think the issue with key volume/velocity changes during melody on the Kawai is only on certain faulty models in circulation, some time ago somebody posted some pictures of his with uneven aligned keys. My current CA67 does not have that problem, neither did my previous CA67 which I sent back because of too much key noises.


It doesn't speak well of the quality control if this problem is still persisting on the new CS11. (No comment on the other companies quality control, good or bad). I do wish I'd played the CA67 or 97 that were also in the shop for comparison, it would have provided some valuable feedback!

Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: Doug M.] #2568804
09/05/16 01:50 PM
09/05/16 01:50 PM
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ShoeiHat Offline OP
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ShoeiHat  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Doug M.

Best solution would be to find yourself a Laptop powerful enough to run a latency free Pianoteq, and take that to the piano store along with a great pair of headphones.


That's a good suggestion. However, I already bought the Yamaha before even starting this thread. smile

Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568815
09/05/16 02:42 PM
09/05/16 02:42 PM
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Posts: 212
Aberdeen, UK
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Rychubil Offline
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Originally Posted by ShoeiHat
Originally Posted by Doug M.

Best solution would be to find yourself a Laptop powerful enough to run a latency free Pianoteq, and take that to the piano store along with a great pair of headphones.


That's a good suggestion. However, I already bought the Yamaha before even starting this thread. smile


Pianoteq is not bad but it's a minimum quality of a good sound of VST piano IMHO.
I already own Ivory II American Steinway by "Synthogy" which is nice and reach but I discovered Steinway made by "Imprfect Samples" which is more acoustic and real. If someone love Bosendorfer sound, should go to Vienna Imperial by "VSL" - it's VERY acoustic monster! Also nice is Bechstein by EWQL. Maybe is not a superb but sounds sweet.
BTW - Currently I use Roland FP30 as a keyboard but VPC is my goal. Very nice cabinet and quite functional music desk has CS8. Better than CS11.

It's never too late for change to better sound I think.


Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: Rychubil] #2568818
09/05/16 02:54 PM
09/05/16 02:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,689
France
Frédéric L Online content
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Frédéric L  Online Content
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France
Originally Posted by rychubil
Also nice is Bechstein by EWQL. Maybe is not a superb but sounds sweet.

I like the Bechstein sound, but unfortunately, there is an annoying velocity layer gap. (Perhaps a bad volume of some samples. With 16 or more layers, such a gap should be heard).

I have sent a rendered MIDI file to the EWQL hotline. Hope they will upgrade this instrument.

My favorite is the Garritan CFX. (VSL Vienna Imperial is a bit expensive, then I wait some time before purchasing it).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 09/05/16 02:55 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: Frédéric L] #2568830
09/05/16 03:39 PM
09/05/16 03:39 PM
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Aberdeen, UK
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Rychubil Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I like the Bechstein sound, but unfortunately, there is an annoying velocity layer gap. (Perhaps a bad volume of some samples. With 16 or more layers, such a gap should be heard.


If you be able to send or to paste a link with example of this EWQL sample, I'd be thankful, cause I really think about purchasing them just for bechstein samples which I like too.

How you like the Steinway of "Imperfect Samples"? Have you opinion, compare to Ivory American?

Last edited by rychubil; 09/05/16 03:41 PM.

Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568895
09/05/16 09:42 PM
09/05/16 09:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
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Pittsburgh, PA
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InnaGrace Offline
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Originally Posted by ShoeiHat

I'm very surprised how bad the Kawai was for me personally. Perhaps the one in the shop was a duff one.


I'm having the same experience - had a Kawai CA years ago that I loved, and stupidly assumed that a new one would only be better. Turns out that I'm really not liking the Kawai at all, and am looking to switch to a Yamaha.

I'm more looking at the clp 545, for price reasons, but will also be trying out the roland (have never played one before, but will try one next weekend). Though sounds like that loud action may get in the way.

Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568914
09/05/16 11:28 PM
09/05/16 11:28 PM
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Posts: 2,351
Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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I've had similar experience with a CA63. Something that is persistent across all Kawai models I've had, albeit to a variable degree depending on the model, is not well laid touch curves. Default ones are usually unusable due to them being overly sensitive whereas the heavy ones limit the usable velocity range, hence also timbre range, and makes them sound dull. ES7 is probably least suffering. And all that's strange for a company that makes fine acoustic pianos.

* All of the above statements are IMHO * (Saying that since someone over here requested it)

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/05/16 11:30 PM.

Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: CyberGene] #2568933
09/06/16 01:01 AM
09/06/16 01:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,354
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Kawai James  Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
* All of the above statements are IMHO *


wink


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2568943
09/06/16 02:18 AM
09/06/16 02:18 AM
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Germany
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Hendrik42 Offline
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Germany
One should have a humble onion with everything, it is good for the humors!


Kawai CN35. Daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now who'll learn faster? ;-)
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: Rychubil] #2568960
09/06/16 04:21 AM
09/06/16 04:21 AM
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Posts: 1,023
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Doug M.  Offline
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Originally Posted by rychubil
Originally Posted by ShoeiHat
Originally Posted by Doug M.

Best solution would be to find yourself a Laptop powerful enough to run a latency free Pianoteq, and take that to the piano store along with a great pair of headphones.


That's a good suggestion. However, I already bought the Yamaha before even starting this thread. smile


Pianoteq is not bad but it's a minimum quality of a good sound of VST piano IMHO.
I already own Ivory II American Steinway by "Synthogy" which is nice and reach but I discovered Steinway made by "Imprfect Samples" which is more acoustic and real. If someone love Bosendorfer sound, should go to Vienna Imperial by "VSL" - it's VERY acoustic monster! Also nice is Bechstein by EWQL. Maybe is not a superb but sounds sweet.
BTW - Currently I use Roland FP30 as a keyboard but VPC is my goal. Very nice cabinet and quite functional music desk has CS8. Better than CS11.

It's never too late for change to better sound I think.


I do like the Vienna Imperial, quite expensive lol.. Wonder how they compare with the Roland's modelled sound. I was going to buy a second hand VPC1 (for £650), but in the end, wanted to gig, so went with the MP7. Will definitely try out Ivory II at some point.

Last edited by Doug M.; 09/06/16 04:41 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2585874
11/09/16 11:35 PM
11/09/16 11:35 PM
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Posts: 47
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Piano2138 Offline
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Hello,

I’ve recently joined this forum and I’d like to post my personal observations on some digital pianos.
I’m using this thread because I’ve bought the Yamaha CLP-585. In my decision the comments on this forum were essential and special thanks to ShoeiHat for the well written opinions.
Please note I am a piano beginner with no knowledge/technique to test the capabilities of these pianos.

Cabinet:
The Yamaha Clavinova series and the Kawai CA-67 (no CA-97 in the only store selling Kawai in my region) look very nice. Polished ebony looks gorgeous, but adds to the price and gathers fingerprints.
Rolland looks also nice, but I preferred the control panel on the left, not in front, as it looks like a keyboard, even with the slide cover (you can still see the lights a bit) – not a deal breaker though.
I liked the idea that Samick Neo had to use a lid cover for the control panel.

Action:
Initially I started looking at CLP-535, but the keys were stiff and keyboard-like and by reading the specs I thought that CLP-545 wooden keys are just marketing; however its keys were much easier to play compared to CLP-535, even if they share the same key mechanism.
With Rolland I was distracted by the sounds of the keys.

Sound:
From the 2 main piano voices offered by Clavinova, I like more the Bosendorfer and thanks to this forum for the tips on how to enhance it to not sound as dull as with the default settings. The CFX Grand sounds a bit digital to me and even the CA-67 a tiny bit digital, but if I have to choose it would be the Kawai.
Over the headphones, the HP-603/HP-605 was strange, like the sound was coming from far away.

Price:
Maybe because there are less number of stores here in Canada, selling Kawai and Rolland, the digital pianos from these 2 manufactures are more expensive than Yamaha, compared what I see in US or Europe. For example CA-67 and HP-605 are more expensive than CLP-575 and CA-97 is more expensive than 585. LX7 & LX17 were excluded because they were above my budget.

Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2585878
11/09/16 11:54 PM
11/09/16 11:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,354
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Kawai James  Offline
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Piano2138, thank you for sharing your thoughts, and congrats on your new piano!

Am I correct in thinking that the Kawai CS8/CS11 were not available in the dealer's store?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: Kawai James] #2585927
11/10/16 08:14 AM
11/10/16 08:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,176
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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peterws  Offline
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I`m always surptised that the same action can sound and feel so different on different models. Down to the velocity curve, amongst other things. All carefully worked out in the factory offices . . . !

We need to hear this beast played. . . .


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: Kawai James] #2586138
11/10/16 11:24 PM
11/10/16 11:24 PM
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Piano2138 Offline
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Thank you Kawai James.
There were no CS8/CS11 on the floor, but I imagine it would be possible to order it, like it was proposed to me for CA-97. However these 2 models (and surprisingly also CA-97, more expensive than CLP-585) were above my budget. Judging from the large number of uprights and grand pianos (mostly Kawai), the dealer was focusing on acoustic pianos.


Slowly, Separately, Sections - Graham Fitch
My SoundCloud
Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2586173
11/11/16 04:42 AM
11/11/16 04:42 AM
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Belger1900 Offline
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I think you will be very happy with the CLP 585! If it would not have been so expensive, I would have gladly bought it myself. But now I went with the Kawai as I did not like the lower priced CLP´s. Soundwise I enjoyed the new Kawai samples more.


Re: My comparison: CLP 585 vs Roland LX7 / LX17 vs Kawai CS11 [Re: ShoeiHat] #2586174
11/11/16 04:47 AM
11/11/16 04:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,354
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Okay, thank you Piano2138.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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