Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum What technique do you use to move pin small increments?

I had a tuning for a concert yesterday and I think, I use the technique Mark describes. It was a Yamaha C7. I can't explain it in a technical language, I only can bring into words what I do (piano is at pitch and already quite in tune):

- I lower the pitch carefully
- I raise the pitch and turn the pin to the right place. During turning a tiny amount of pressure on the lever towards the string (weight of the my hand is enough).
-If I have reached the desired pitch, stop pin turning, wait some time in this position till the pitch raises a tiny amount more. (I call it "ghost tuning ", just to bring in another confusing, spooky term😉)
-let the light pressure slowly go and hear what happens.
- mostly nothing happens, pin is quasi untwisted (because of this time you waited, it is unbent because you removed the pressure)
- now some taps in the direction of the string (sets the pin and the pitch)

Lever at 12 o'clock, slow pull. The shorter the NSL, the more I overpull. The overpull is between 0.5-ca 2 cents)

Short version: lower pitch, raise pitch to desired place, wait some seconds, let the lever go , tap down in direction of the string (not CCW)
The taps are also a test. If the pitch changes, I repeat the whole thing from the start. It is mostly not necessary.

This gets us back to the OP: moving the pin a small amount. I believe that there is a minimum that it can be moved from a "standing start" and likewise a minimum that the pitch can be changed and still have stability.

Overcoming the static frictions is the problem. Once the pin is twisted, the pinblock friction overcome, the string is rendering over all the bearing points, and the pitch is changing (not necessarily in that order...) all the static friction should be dealt with and then there should be no perceptible minimum amount of pitch or movement change, unless something is jumpy. <sigh...>

Myself, I assume that the amount that I want to change the pitch is less than the minimum it will take to overcome the static frictions and also assume that the string and the pin are in an unstable condition. So I start by bumping the string down, which is also a good habit to make sure you are on the right string.

Then while bringing the pitch up, usually with a smooth pull, I can evaluate the order that all the static frictions are overcome and select a strategy to use for setting THAT pin and setting THAT string.

This is an interesting discussion and I'm picking up some useful tips. One further consideration: If a string happens to be exactly in tune already, would you go through the process of bumping it down and retuning it? If so, what is the reasoning behind that? Is that retuned string more stable predictable over time than if you just left it where it is?

Go flat a lot (20 cents?)
Then slow pull up to pitch.
Just like Toni said.

The "thing" that is moving slowly is the hammer and pin, twisted, as a unit.

No. I would use what I call the "Bend Test" to prove stability (instead of the Test Blow, but you could use that too.)

Bend Test - slightly flex the pin towards the string. If the nsl tension is at the bottom of the Tension Band, the pitch will drop. Need to retune.
If the nsl tension is high of middle then it will just move lower within the tension band and return almost to its original tension. (Some people call this the Marshmallow Zone, I believe) and the pitch won't change. I.e. the pitch is stable.

Of course, if you flex hard enough, any string will slip, even "stable" strings. You need to get the feel of how much is enough.

I try to go flat not more than 4-6 cents maximum

Thanks, got it now.

One thing to note perhaps is that if you execute the "slow pull" too slowly, after static friction at the bearing point is overcome, the string jumps, then comes to rest again (subject to larger static friction), and keeps moving in jumps. But if your "slow pull" is fast enough the string keeps moving and never jumps again. I assume your "slow pull" is a lot faster than what a cautious beginner would consider "slow".

Is such a method also applicable to "jumpy pins"? I've only once tuned a piano that had some "jumpy pins" and got it on pitch by more or less randomly jumping around until by chance I hit the right pitch. Bad technique probably...

Kees

Yes. Sometimes you have to do that. You are correct regarding speed - minimum that produces no jumps. Most pianos have good pins that don't jump. The slow pull can really solve the jumpy pin problem if you have the right hammer angle which produces the right amount of unbending/untwisting that will leave the nsl tension high of middle. This allows you to get the pin foot to its proper orientation with one move.

Permit me to argue that the term "band" as Mark used it is quite standard. It simply refers to a continuous range of values with an upper and lower limit. It seems to show up most often when talking about frequencies, but it makes sense for tensions too.

"After tuning" I'll admit I had to think a little harder about

Thank you Nathan,

I am using "unbending/untwisting" now more than After Tuning.

I am currently writing a book, Piano Tuning Theory, that I'm hoping will help reduce some of the confusion. This forum and other forums are really helping me to understand how I need to write, so that the most number of people can understand me.

The term "setting the pin" has been around a long time. Why not use that instead of "After Tuning"?

My point being that the common terms are instantly recognizable and can also be used for independent searches.

Well, it depends. If it is a touch-up, no don't re-tune a good sounding string. Or if the piano is challenging and some notes in the high treble are probably as close as you would come, no, don't retune those. But for a regular tuning, if six out of seven strings are out, how do you know the seventh isn't on the verge of slipping? Also, I find when I start taking "freebies", I get out of sequence, have the hammer on the wrong pin (as I get older, I wonder if I borrowed it from Al...), and waste more time than I saved.

After Tuning is not just, or always setting the pin. After Tuning is untwisting and unbending of the pin after you are done tuning. Depending on the hammer angle, NSL length, and pin block tightness, you are not guaranteed that the pin will be set upon removal of the hammer force.

Also, proper After Tuning results in not only proper pin setting, but string setting as well, at the same time.

Yes, Mark, I understand that. Still, it falls under the general category of setting the pin, which is the COMMON term. As I have said, you can use your personal, uncommon terms, but you can't expect the entire world to understand or be interested.

Now, this is just an example, so please don't pick it apart. You could write something like "When setting the pin, you should also set the string by ... In addition this gives you the opportunity to fine tune the string by ... "

Please don't think I am trying to tell you how to write. What I am trying to do is make you realize the consequences of using personal, uncommon terms. The easier you make it for the reader, the more they will benefit from it.

I think you are the only person with this issue, Jeff, so I will keep things the way they are. If anyone else agrees with Jeff, let me know and I'll consider deleteing the term "After Tuning" from my definitions.

After tuning, there is playing The act of tuning is putting everything in place such that the piano is in tune (and that includes untwisting, string rendering etc. etc.). I think the term is confusing because it sounds like something you do afterwards, which is not really the case, it's part of the final completion of the tuning IMHO.

Paul.

Mark, I think of all the delicate aspects you speak of as part of "setting the pin" -- which, to me, is more than just rotating the pin and then removing the hammer. Thanks for your attention --

I will use untwisting/unbending as much as possible. Thanks.

The term is similar to After Burn used in fitness to describe burning calories by doing nothing. Just like After Tuning is what is done when you stop tuning.

I know it's a complicated term, but I want people to understand that by stopping what you are doing, there is still something that is done. Many people think that nothing happens when you remove the hammer force.

Clarity is very important, so "After Tuning", although it is easier to write, especially if I started writing AT 😉, will be replaced by unbending/untwisting.

I haven't started writing the chapter on the subject of forces, friction, and deformation of the string and pin, so this is good.

The beautiful thing about Slow Pull done right, is that is exactly what it is. 🙂

"After Tuning" is what happens between the instance that you stop moving the lever and when you remove the lever if I understand correctly. That's not the same as "setting the pin".

Kees