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Bösendorfer 214VC? #2578590
10/14/16 09:59 AM
10/14/16 09:59 AM
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Davdoc Offline OP
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I just randomly came across the video at the end of this post. It seemed that Bösendorfer just introduced this new model. Their website does not have much info yet. Does any of the Bösendorfer gurus on PW have any insights of this model, especially if compared to model 214 (or 214CS)?

Bösendorfer 214VC


1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
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Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Davdoc] #2578600
10/14/16 10:51 AM
10/14/16 10:51 AM
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I posted the same video last night on our Facebook page. What a beautiful recording! Given the design similarities and history of the original 280 & 214 (in many ways, the 214 is a scaled down 280), it seems natural that the R&D in the 280VC could and now has translated into the 214VC.

As recently as this Summer, Bösendorfer's CEO spoke in a magazine interview about the models introduced at NAMM this January (280VC, Kessler, Oscar Peterson Edition, Marquetry series) but still gave no hints about other news on the horizon. wink

Bösendorfer's official announcement to the US was in early September, stating these will become available here in 2017.

This article from International Piano Magazine mostly discusses the 280VC but speaks about the 214VC as a result of the same R&D.


Sam Bennett
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Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Davdoc] #2578612
10/14/16 12:07 PM
10/14/16 12:07 PM
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This is a very intriguing and unusual ad! At first, I thought the "I love you" was a bit silly but after a while, I think I liked it, especially after I looked up the Liszt piece(listed at the end) on Wikipedia and found the story behind it.

Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2578639
10/14/16 01:44 PM
10/14/16 01:44 PM
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Davdoc Offline OP
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Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
I posted the same video last night on our Facebook page. What a beautiful recording! Given the design similarities and history of the original 280 & 214 (in many ways, the 214 is a scaled down 280), it seems natural that the R&D in the 280VC could and now has translated into the 214VC.

...

This article from International Piano Magazine mostly discusses the 280VC but speaks about the 214VC as a result of the same R&D.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have never seen a 280VC in flesh, but I have been curious about its characteristics. What is different in general in a 280VC compared to, say, the classic model of 290 or 275? Maybe it is trade secret that Bösendorfer does not disclose much on publicly available materials. Visibly from web images, I could only tell that the duplex termination is different, and maybe the rim is thicker?

Regarding Bösendorfer, I personally had the most experience in one specific instrument in my college's recital hall, which was one that had 92 keys and also duplex termination wedges (what are those called anyway? Tuned duplex?) I was not that aware of brands, models, etc., but now by Googling it was likely the discontinued model 213. My memory was that it still had the characteristic Bösendorfer sound.


1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Davdoc] #2578664
10/14/16 03:14 PM
10/14/16 03:14 PM
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I got to play the 280VC last year during a master piano class I took at Bösendorfer in Vienna. They sound amazing as do all Bösendorfers! Bösendorfer wanted to produce a concert grand without the extra keys in the base. Their 280VC has 88 keys whereas the 290 Imperial grand has 97 keys or 8 full octaves. There aren't many uses for the extra keys and they make the Imperial extra wide and heavier. The VC stands for Vienna Concert....

Follow this link for a video from Bösendorfer describing this model.

http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/models/model-280

All the models they are currently producing are shown on the above link as well. All are made by hand and they don't produce more than 300 in a year. They produced their 50,000th piano a couple years ago and have been in business since 1828.

Steve
Bösendorfer 170

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 10/14/16 03:21 PM.

Bösendorfer 170
Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Lakeviewsteve] #2578790
10/14/16 10:10 PM
10/14/16 10:10 PM
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Davdoc Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lakeviewsteve
I got to play the 280VC last year during a master piano class I took at Bösendorfer in Vienna. They sound amazing as do all Bösendorfers! Bösendorfer wanted to produce a concert grand without the extra keys in the base. Their 280VC has 88 keys whereas the 290 Imperial grand has 97 keys or 8 full octaves. There aren't many uses for the extra keys and they make the Imperial extra wide and heavier. The VC stands for Vienna Concert....

Follow this link for a video from Bösendorfer describing this model.

http://www.boesendorfer.com/en/models/model-280

All the models they are currently producing are shown on the above link as well. All are made by hand and they don't produce more than 300 in a year. They produced their 50,000th piano a couple years ago and have been in business since 1828.

Steve
Bösendorfer 170


Thank you. I guess I should have phrased it better: while I am not technically knowledgeable, I am still curious about the (manufacturing/design/material) difference of 280VC from other classic Bösendorfer concert grands (275, 290) aside from the very visible 88 keys (vs 92 or 97 keys). Or in a similar context, difference of this new 214VC from smaller grands (185, 200, 225, or even the current 214/214CS).

I also thought that one traditional argument about Bösendorfer's sound characteristics, at least in their larger grands, are partly due to the extra bass strings, wider soundboard, and the resulting "normal" bass strings/bridge (A0 and above) that sit in the more vibrant part of the soundboard (instead of near the edge). Those newer models suggest that this traditional design philosophy is no longer incorporated.

It is also interesting that the current 214/214CS is actually fairly new design (my understanding has been that the replaced 213 was discontinued only in the late 1990s). Will 214VC replace the current 214?


1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Davdoc] #2578892
10/15/16 05:45 AM
10/15/16 05:45 AM
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London
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I heard Andras Schiff play a 214VC at the Wigmore Hall back in April. He wrote in the programme: “The new 280VC concert grand piano is a magnificent instrument. It combines the quintessential Bösendorfer qualities – the singing tone, the rich bass and middle registers – with a very lively treble and reliable mechanics not usually associated with this brand. Thus it’s a huge improvement on the earlier models. It is ideally suited to the world of the Viennese classics. In the world of globalisation where basically all pianists play all the music on one sort of piano, we desperately need change and variety. Please listen without prejudice, with open ears and hearts.”

You can see a thread about this, with photos, here.

Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Davdoc] #2578988
10/15/16 01:27 PM
10/15/16 01:27 PM
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PianoWorksATL Offline
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Originally Posted by Davdoc
Will 214VC replace the current 214?
This is the only question that is simple to answer...yes, the 214VC will replace the current 214.

To begin to answer some of your other questions might better go something like this...2 goals with the original creation of the 280 and 214 was to have 88 note scales that are physically and visually familiar to pianists in the size ranges most commonly associated with larger and smaller halls. The 290 & 225 offer unique benefits because of their design that incorporates the wider soundboard and extended range, however the origin story of those designs is different.

Other extended scale designs from Bösendorfer were relatively short lived with the exception of the 275, but even that piano had many internal redesigns to try and push it further for larger, more modern halls.

Given the 88 note parameters and the emphasis on wider dynamic range, the often tinkered with 280 led to a major redesign with the 280VC. The 214 is/has proved successful...my speculation is that development of the 214VC was an opportunity created by what was learned in the development of the 280VC but are congruous with the original purpose of the 214. Some design elements like the inclusion of duplex scaling are a departure from other traditional Bösendorfer models, but other changes feel like a return to other signature Bösendorfer design principles, like the square cross bracing of the rim. The VC models required major changes to the soundboard and rib construction, and I'm waiting for more details about the changes to the rim construction.

As is mentioned in the articles, a foremost priority was to continue to please current and past Bösendorfer artists while appealing to even more artists that do long for a greater variety of choices in the great halls of the world.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
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Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2580291
10/20/16 07:40 AM
10/20/16 07:40 AM
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Maryland, USA
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Davdoc Offline OP
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The information is still very scarce. Bösendorfer's own website still has no details. Incidentally, I found this German website listing it:

Bösendorfer 214VC

If all the pictures are from the actual model, it appeared that the duplex termination wedges, seen on 280VC, do not make an appearance on this model. But from the very brief glimpse of the video feature pianist Aleksandra Mikulska, it did seem to have the wedges...

Last edited by Davdoc; 10/20/16 02:57 PM.

1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Davdoc] #2580421
10/20/16 07:56 PM
10/20/16 07:56 PM
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Skokie, IL
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Davedoc,

I would like to chime in.

I recently came back from my Honeymoon/European vacation. One of the cities that my wife & I visited was Vienna. Vienna is one of my favorite cities.

Yes, the 214VC 7’ and 280VC 9’ 2” will replace the current 214 and 280 models. While models like the 290 9’ 6” Imperial, 225 7’ 4” and 200 6’ 1” have been on the market for more than 100 years, the original 214 and 280 were introduced in 1997 and 2001, respectively, as new models with a slightly different design.

Bösendorfer decided to adjust both of these models to the new "Vienna Concert" design as a result of specific concert performance requirements, while all other models continue with the traditional Bösendorfer construction.

What are the construction differences? Unfortunately I cannot share these trade secrets. I can tell you that the new VC’s construction design allows the soundboard to resonate more freely vs. the older generation; thus more power, greater dynamics, phenomenal sustain but still harnessing the Bösendorfer DNA.

BTW: Our 214VC should arrive before the end of the year.

Jeff Tasch

Last edited by Grand Piano Haus; 10/20/16 08:03 PM.

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Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Grand Piano Haus] #2580431
10/20/16 09:05 PM
10/20/16 09:05 PM
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Thank you, Jeff.

I guess I have always been somewhat intrigued by those duplex wedges. In my youth when I was lucky to graduate from my old Yamaha upright to the C5, that was one striking visible difference. That was also the time in my life when I started to be more aware of the tonal variation, and reading a magazine article talking about grand vs upright designs further reinforced the perception.

Among the modern performance grade instruments, I saw Bosendorfer (other than 280VC), Steingraeber, Grotrian etc don't have those wedges (but do have duplex that are not dampened). Then Steinway, Yamaha CF, Shigeru etc have those. Fazioli, Mason & Hamlin, and Estonia go as far as having adjustable ones. I personally cannot perceive categorical tonal difference based on the duplex designs.


1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: PianoWorksATL] #2580434
10/20/16 09:39 PM
10/20/16 09:39 PM
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Sam, this is a quote from the "Piano Buyer' profile of Bösendorfer:

"The rim of the Bösendorfer grand is built quite differently from those of all other grands. Instead of veneers bent around a form, the inner rim is made in solid sections of spruce and beech that are joined together. The outer rim has a solid core of quartersawn spruce that is grooved by Bösendorfer craftsmen so that it can be bent around the inner rim; after bending, the grooved sections are filled with spruce inserts."

Do the new 280VC and 214 VC still have this rim construction?

Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Almaviva] #2580437
10/20/16 10:04 PM
10/20/16 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Sam, this is a quote from the "Piano Buyer' profile of Bösendorfer:

"The rim of the Bösendorfer grand is built quite differently from those of all other grands. Instead of veneers bent around a form, the inner rim is made in solid sections of spruce and beech that are joined together. The outer rim has a solid core of quartersawn spruce that is grooved by Bösendorfer craftsmen so that it can be bent around the inner rim; after bending, the grooved sections are filled with spruce inserts."

Do the new 280VC and 214 VC still have this rim construction?


Almaviva,

I am not Sam, but yes they do. smile


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Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Davdoc] #2580582
10/21/16 01:21 PM
10/21/16 01:21 PM
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Another example that the company wants/needs to broaden their appeal. The "traditional" Bosendorfer sound doesn't sell enough pianos (unfortunately), so they have to develop pianos that sound more like the other brands (louder, more projection, duplex scaling in treble, etc.) They're trying to create a Bosie/Steinway-like hybrid. Genetically-engineered. A frankenSteindorfer!

Last edited by Rwingguy; 10/21/16 03:26 PM.
Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Davdoc] #2581037
10/23/16 10:35 AM
10/23/16 10:35 AM
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I played a 280 VC at the local dealer's yesterday afternoon; they had just gotten it in since my previous visit about a month ago. It was very nice! I also enjoyed the 200, which is a little more concievably in my price range.

Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Corvus] #2611135
02/03/17 03:59 AM
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Did anyone play this at NAMM ? -- in the side room down the hallway of the Marriott.


https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

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# 571692
Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Dave Ferris] #2786610
11/30/18 11:11 PM
11/30/18 11:11 PM
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Came across this nice playing on a gorgeous sounding Bosendorfer 214 VC. He's getting a lot of the room ambience on the recording. Such a light, spacious and airy tone it has, love it ! Someone tell me that tune he goes into tempo at the end...I know it but can't place it.

I spoke with the recordist and he used a pair AKG 414XLS into a DAV Broadhurst Gardens No.4 preamp. The youtube media tag on this site doesn't seem to work for me,. so here's just the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaY...-JWU2s_kH5j_-Zb1oz_kBpcn5Gcdc8Br8h3vZWto


https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D
# 571692
Re: Bösendorfer 214VC? [Re: Davdoc] #2786623
12/01/18 01:47 AM
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