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Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea #2577384
10/09/16 03:11 PM
10/09/16 03:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 860
Poland
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kapelli Offline OP
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kapelli  Offline OP
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Poland
First of all, I have to say, my idea is inspired by Roland, but, nevertheless I have bit another idea. It's not be aimed at particular brad, but something what can make your piano sound spectacular.


First of all needed components are:
- small stereo amplifier
- set of speakers
- digital crossover, like Behringer DCX2496 or similar
- total cost should be between 600-1000 USD


My idea consist of

1. Below the keyboard - mounted at bottom back plate:
- two 10 inch woofers
OR
- six-eight small woofers/fullrange to create a soundbar
OR
- two 10-12 inch fullrange speakers

my favourite is option 1 or 3

They should be cut around 500-600Hz (that's just an idea)

2. At the top of the piano you have to build around 10cm (or lower if possible ) C letter shaped construction, inside which you will place :
- 4 midrange speakers at the bottom line of the piano (be tchem only coned or classic). midranges will be directed straight up
- 2 tweeter which will be placed at the left and right corners of the piano, directed towards the pianist head

Another option to fit the tweeters is to place them after first and third midrange, so there will be only small box placed at the top of the piano.

Considering using good, but not overly expensive speakers like Scan-Speak Discovery, Dayton, Hi-Vi, the cost will not be too high.

3. Sound will be delivered via line out.

What do you think about it? Active crossover and amp you can hide somehow below the keyboard.

How do you see that concept? Do oyu think it is possible to get the reliable sound projection both for pianist and listeners? Do you see any pros or cons?

Of course, after doing the basic set-up, the proper measurements should be made at the point of pianist head, and using the proper white or another noise the crossover should be set-up.

For the brave ones, I think there is also possibility to cut the hald of top plate, and mound the speaker bar with the top of it at the level of top plate and cover with speaker cloth (sorry, I don't know the proper enligh name for loudspeaker sound transparent cloth covers).

Of course, that design is made to be working with the pianos which do not have too complicated sound projection systems, otherwile I see it impossible to fit with the piano.

Attached simple drawing. In the red lines I marked that additional soundbar to be placed on the piano.

What I see at potential of it is:
- you can merge it with piano with little of change to it, it's not as scary as full monitors
- probably it is possible to get the audiophile sound quality and even made it to our own taste by using the drivers we prefer
- you don't have to pay the premium price (od double the price of the piano) for speaker system, just buy the cheapest piano from the series and voila!

NEgative:
- it is costly
- you need to have friends who has spekaer measurement microphones and software (fortunately, I have)
- you need to be a bit brave, because you need to have some basic DIY skill
- say goodbye to warranty in case of fully mergin with piano (but it is possible to use my idea without any changes to piano)
- it's limited to not too much pianos

[Linked Image]

Last edited by kapelli; 10/09/16 03:13 PM.
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Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2577427
10/09/16 06:16 PM
10/09/16 06:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,403
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Raleigh, North Carolina
I can't see building speakers when they're available as ready-to-go retail units.

How about just using a pair of bookshelf speakers? Or a pair of monitors?
Put them on top of the piano. Or put them on proper stands beside or behind?

Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2577442
10/09/16 07:30 PM
10/09/16 07:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,625
ElmerJFudd Offline
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I'd love to see a manufacturer try ribbon speaker technology in a 2.1 panel configuration (Left, Right and Bass) laid out as a soundboard would be. One of these days I'll try it out myself. They are thin flat panels and the sound emanates in all directions.




Here is how I see the layout on an upright digital piano. Basically the entire face and back of the instrument are speaker panels. Sound emanates both toward the player and away. Using 3 speakers in the panel allows for left and right panning and the lower part of the panel handles the lower frequencies we associate with the floor anyway.

[Linked Image]

IMHO traditional drivers like this,
[Linked Image]
are generally too directional and many designs don't do a great job reproducing acoustic instruments. YMMV



Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: ElmerJFudd] #2577493
10/10/16 01:35 AM
10/10/16 01:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,611
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Why not use transducers on a full backboard like Kawai do? Full range, not just the bass bits . . . .you don`t have to use maple you know . . . grin


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: peterws] #2577533
10/10/16 08:21 AM
10/10/16 08:21 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 100
Italy
P
Paolo70 Offline
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Hi Peter,

For what it's worth, I just finished a little audio improvement project for my (rather seasoned) digital piano which goes pretty much in the direction you suggest. In practice, I replaced my piano's original MDF backboard with an identically shaped 6mm plywood panel and glued a couple of 10W exciters on its back side. I then connected the exciters in parallel to the original speaker boxes.

The overall sound quality isn't very different from the original, but I find the spatial projection to have improved a lot with the additional soundboard. For your information, my original plan was to replace the original speakers with the soundboard altogether, but for various reasons I wasn't able to achieve a sufficiently balanced frequency response with it, so I went for the soundboard + speakers combination.

For the electronic geeks yes, I know I have halved the impedance seen at the amplifier outputs, so I'm a bit more cautious with the volume slider now wink ). In case anybody is interested, I can post a picture of the finished work.

Ciao,
Paolo


Yamaha CLP-970
Roland JV-1080
Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2577536
10/10/16 08:52 AM
10/10/16 08:52 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 515
Tennessee
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brooster Offline
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Tennessee


The heavens declare the glory of God;
and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2577585
10/10/16 12:50 PM
10/10/16 12:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 301
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Tim P Offline
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ElmerJFudd - Ribbon speakers in a digital piano is a really interesting idea. I'd love to hear that as well. If I remember correctly, however, ribbon speakers tend to very finicky about amplification and being in close proximity to surfaces, like a back wall. But when they're set up well they're astoundingly realistic.

Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: Tim P] #2577646
10/10/16 04:33 PM
10/10/16 04:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,625
ElmerJFudd Offline
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ElmerJFudd  Offline
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Originally Posted by Tim P
ElmerJFudd - Ribbon speakers in a digital piano is a really interesting idea. I'd love to hear that as well. If I remember correctly, however, ribbon speakers tend to very finicky about amplification and being in close proximity to surfaces, like a back wall. But when they're set up well they're astoundingly realistic.


Something I've been wondering about for quite a while,

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2369191/Ribbon_speakers_for_digital_pi.html

Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2577651
10/10/16 05:02 PM
10/10/16 05:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 860
Poland
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kapelli Offline OP
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kapelli  Offline OP
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Poland
I posted that thread, because there is a huge interest in providing a good piano speaker system, but making it still looking nice and not changing home into music studio. Thus my solution is solving all problem - both with projection and look. Also there is advanced technology and speaker building knowledge behind it.

Also, ribbon speakers are hard to made to play even midrange and they have to be always combined with subwoofer, to give the full range.

Maybe you were thinking about magnetostatic speakers? They are made to be projecting as big surfaces. Despite the fact, that Martin Logan is really expensive, they are not so expensive to be made in reality, but they also lack of lower bass.

Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2577701
10/10/16 10:24 PM
10/10/16 10:24 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 805
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Macy Offline
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Macy  Offline
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Originally Posted by kapelli

Maybe you were thinking about magnetostatic speakers? They are made to be projecting as big surfaces. Despite the fact, that Martin Logan is really expensive, they are not so expensive to be made in reality, but they also lack of lower bass.


Martin Logan speakers are electrostatics, not magnetostatics (Magnepan for instance), and have typically been hybrids with conventional cone speakers for frequencies below 200-300 Hz and certainly do not lack lower bass for music with nearly flat response to below 30 Hz. I use a full set of Martin Logan speakers for my home theater. I do use an 18-inch sub-woofer for low frequency effects, but don't use it for music except occasionally to augment the Martin Logan 12-inch woofers for special pipe organ recordings.

I've used electrostatics and magnetostatics for about 50 years, dating back to the Quads and Dayton Wright electrostatics and the full-range Magneplanar Tympani III-B and 1D. Full-range flat panel speakers do require bass augmentation with a sub-woofer.



Macy

CVP-409GP, Garritan CFX, Vintage D, Ivory II GP's & American Concert D, Pianoteq, True Keys American D, Ravenscroft 275, Garritan Authorized Steinway, Alicia's Keys, EWQL Pianos, MainStage, iPad Pro/forScore/PageFlip Cicada, Custom Mac MIDI/Audio Software Design, Macs Everywhere
Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2578170
10/12/16 12:21 PM
10/12/16 12:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 570
Virginia, USA
K
Kbeaumont Offline
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K

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 570
Virginia, USA
I use to have a set of Infinity Kappa speakers they had ribbon tweeters, a mid range dome speaker, a lower mid speaker and woofer with a 10 inch passive radiator. Those speakers sounded great, some of the best if not the best I have ever owned. And I have had a lot of different audiophile speakers over the years between 1980 through 2005. I have owned nearly every single 'latest and greatest' speaker touted in the magazines. I always thought for me in my house at the time these sounded better than anything I tried. Unfortunately they had one big drawback. Their impedance, advertised as 6 ohms where very frequency dependent and could drop to under 2 ohms at certain frequencies. And they could absorb quite a bit of power without distorting. The consequence of this was it would eat amplifiers like Joey Chestnut and Mike Stoney at a Hot dog eating event every time you cranked the volume. I sold them after a neighbor at a party one night cranked the volume knob on my stereo all the way up and blew a $2000 400 watt power amp! Fried that sucker in less than 5 seconds! I had a couple of people who have owned them report the same thing.


A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....
Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: Paolo70] #2578175
10/12/16 12:34 PM
10/12/16 12:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,611
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Northern England.
Originally Posted by Paolo70
Hi Peter,

For what it's worth, I just finished a little audio improvement project for my (rather seasoned) digital piano which goes pretty much in the direction you suggest. In practice, I replaced my piano's original MDF backboard with an identically shaped 6mm plywood panel and glued a couple of 10W exciters on its back side. I then connected the exciters in parallel to the original speaker boxes.

The overall sound quality isn't very different from the original, but I find the spatial projection to have improved a lot with the additional soundboard. For your information, my original plan was to replace the original speakers with the soundboard altogether, but for various reasons I wasn't able to achieve a sufficiently balanced frequency response with it, so I went for the soundboard + speakers combination.

For the electronic geeks yes, I know I have halved the impedance seen at the amplifier outputs, so I'm a bit more cautious with the volume slider now wink ). In case anybody is interested, I can post a picture of the finished work.

Ciao,
Paolo


I`m very interested. You seem to be at the stage of development that Kawai has achieved; plywood should be a good initial choice. You could experiment by bracing. I gotta have a go at this
Be interesting to see further developments . . . the mind boggles!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2578251
10/12/16 05:29 PM
10/12/16 05:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 860
Poland
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kapelli Offline OP
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Poland
Nice discussion smile
However, my thread was inspired by mu current Purchasing dilemma: to buy Roland LX-7 and use it as it is.... or... buy HP 603, and make a custom amplified system attached to it.

Another idea which came to my mind, is to buy hp603 plus a set of soundbar with subwoofer and place the soundbar on the piano. Of course one that costs 500$-700$. This is kind of ready solution and still 500$ cheaper than lx-7.

Any thoughts....?
I am inclining myself to the sound bar solution lately...

Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2578266
10/12/16 06:20 PM
10/12/16 06:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,625
ElmerJFudd Offline
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Yamaha YAS or YSP
Some come with the sub included.
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audi...-sound-projector/#page=1&mode=paging

How they'll sound with your choice in DP in your living space...

Who knows?

But on the other hand, the 603 come with two 12 cm (4-3/4 inches) speakers and two 30 watt amplifiers. So, can't hurt.


Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: peterws] #2578326
10/13/16 03:14 AM
10/13/16 03:14 AM
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Posts: 100
Italy
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Paolo70 Offline
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Originally Posted by peterws
I`m very interested. You seem to be at the stage of development that Kawai has achieved; plywood should be a good initial choice. You could experiment by bracing. I gotta have a go at this
Be interesting to see further developments . . . the mind boggles!


Ah ah, my little plywood panel doesn't even come near to the level of refinement of Kawai's soundboard speaker system! From what I could guess from the available pictures, their braced spruce soundboard has a specially designed enclosure, which directs part of the panel's back wave towards the top of the instrument. Their single actuator is much more powerful than both of my puny exciters. A different class! thumb


Yamaha CLP-970
Roland JV-1080
Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: ElmerJFudd] #2578374
10/13/16 09:45 AM
10/13/16 09:45 AM
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Tim P Offline
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd
Originally Posted by Tim P
ElmerJFudd - Ribbon speakers in a digital piano is a really interesting idea. I'd love to hear that as well. If I remember correctly, however, ribbon speakers tend to very finicky about amplification and being in close proximity to surfaces, like a back wall. But when they're set up well they're astoundingly realistic.


Something I've been wondering about for quite a while,

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2369191/Ribbon_speakers_for_digital_pi.html


Interesting thread, thanks. But as an aside I had forgotten that Magnepan has speakers in that price range. It has been a couple decades since I've heard anything reproduced by that company's speakers, but they left a lasting impression. So now if I return to shopping for a new place to live, I'll likely be evaluating if it has room for Maggies. Argh.

Re: Best digital piano integrated sound system - an idea [Re: kapelli] #2578610
10/14/16 12:00 PM
10/14/16 12:00 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 225
So Cal
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Here's my version: MP11 cabinet project


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