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Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! #2574707
09/28/16 05:13 PM
09/28/16 05:13 PM
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Misiak Offline OP
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Hi guys, if anybody is interested buying this piano and some headphones for nightly practicing be very careful. I was not aware of couple of things which at the end made a torture of searching a good headphones which fits this digital piano. Hope this can help you people to save some hassle and nerves.

On my journey I've had 6 quality headphones (besides some cheapo plugs which are completely unusable) and only one are finally good for me.

Here is the list:

DT990 Pro 250 ohm / 96db SPL
DT880 Edition 32 ohm / 96db SPL
DT770 Pro 80 ohm / 96db SPL
Senheisser HD598 32 ohm / 115SPL
AKG 701 62 ohm / 105db SPL
Audio Technica M50x 32 ohm / 99 SPL

There are actually two problems with this piano and headphones:

1. Headphones are not loud enough

2. Cracking sound from internal amp on max. volume

When I've bought FP-30 I owned Bayer Dynamics 990 Pro. That time I did not care much about sensitivity, impedance and other things so I just plug the headphones to the piano and after some time I've noticed they are maybe not loud enough for me. This was on max. volume. A bit later I've noticed if I play keys with max power I can hear cracking distorted noise which completely made me instance. Every time I've played some triad I've heard it. First I was not aware about impedance so I've just connected some cheap plugs and some of them had this cracking and some not. I did not know why. Then I've started to study more and found out that impedance could be a culprit. So I've bought 32 ohm BD 880 Pro and hoped for the best. But this was even more quiet than 250 ohms DT990Pro! I couldn't understand how this is possible if SPL is the same 96dB. Then I've came to the conclusion that internal amp must regulate the output voltage based on impedance of the headphones. Therefore 250 ohms were louder than 32 ohms however, with a very negative effect of cracking sound. Suppose that amp is not the best quality here.

So I've ordered HD598 and these were indeed the loudest with SPL of 115 db and low impedance. However, I did not like the sound at all - it sounded like someone is playing behind the curtain and this headphones has pretty weak bass overall. Heigts are not very crisp for me. So I've decided to return them and finally ordered a triad of new headphones. AKG701, DT770Pro and ATH-M50x.

Bayers are 80 ohm, AKG is 62 ohm and AT is 32 ohm. I've found that even 62 ohms causing a cracking.

SO EVERYONE BUYING A HEADPHONES FOR FP-30 and maybe for other piano brands (depends on internal amplifier) - Don't exceed 32 ohm impedance!

Here's short review of all of them:

AudioTechnica blew the other two out of the water. AKG is far behind BD and AT with very weak bass (mids and heights are fine though) and they are quietest on my FP-30 despite the fact they have highest sensitivity (105db). I suppose it's because of its open design and 62 ohms impedance. There is also cracking on max. volume levels. Soundstage is of course the best of the three but these two things rule them out for my use. They are very comfortable thanks to big and deep velvet ear pads, however they feel cheap because the plastics is used everywhere. Especially white edition feels cheap. I'm not sure about the durability of this material. Even the main frame holdings cups are two plastics rods. They are very light because of materials used. They hold loose on the head and I had a feeling they will fall off if I shake my head. Tested also on my Sound Blaster Z with various kind of music and they did not impress me at all. I could increase low response but the bass is not very precise and distorted. Then we have BD770Pro. This are really great headphones and the build quality is fantastic with very comfortable velour pads. These can last 10 years without damage (I have 4 years old 990Pro and they are like new after pads replacement). It's top in a price range up to 150 eur. The soundstage is great for closed headphones and there is plenty of bass. Sometimes it may get out of the control if pushed too hard but is very good and punchy. Mids are bit recessed and heights are pretty bright. I like V-shape so it's right for me smile Unfortunately they are not suitable for my Roland because they are still not loud enough and what is even worse, because of higher impedance there is cracking on max. volume level when pressing multiple keys at once. But this is not a problem of headphones but the Roland. So finally here we have ATH-50x. There are best headphones I have ever had and perfectly suitable both for piano and my music. There are finally loud enough for me with no cracking sound. As for music they eat everything I throw at them, the bass is very tight and controlled. Mids are smooth and heights are crisp and clear though not piercing. Soundstage is very good for closed headphones as well. With some equalizing (I'm not that guy who like flat response) they sound amazing on my soundcard (of course with quality source). I really happy I've finally found a really good headphones which does not ruin my wallet. They are very comfortable and have perfect clamping force. Yeah, ear pads could be deeper but they are still good enough. I have only one problem now - I want to use them also for listening to the music and not only for playing piano because I like them slightly more than BD990Pro now, damn laugh

If you have any question, don't hesitate to ask.

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Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2574710
09/28/16 05:48 PM
09/28/16 05:48 PM
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There is a reason why there is a 3.5mm miniature jack on the FP-30:

It's optimized for iPhone earbuds. wink


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2574714
09/28/16 06:05 PM
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Misiak Offline OP
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There is 6.3mm jack as well. More over, even 3.5mm output adapts to the headphone impedance. If you connect 250 ohm headphones and 32 ohm headphones with the same sensitivity, 250 ohm will be paradoxically louder. But may introduce occasional cracking noises so this is not a good tradeoff I would say... I hoped 6.3mm output is more powerful and more suitable for higher impedance headphones. But I think it's just interconnected with some wires smile

And who the heck wants to use iPhone earbuds on a piano ? laugh I tried ones just for test and the sound was like a crap. And short cable of course smile

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2574720
09/28/16 06:51 PM
09/28/16 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Misiak
Hi guys, if anybody is interested buying this piano and some headphones for nightly practicing...
...AudioTechnica blew the other two out of the water.

I agree completely!
Previous, each low impendance headphones, I had together, same time: Sennheiser HD598, AKG K550 and ATH-M50X. This last one are the best not only for piano playing.


Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
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Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2574722
09/28/16 06:56 PM
09/28/16 06:56 PM
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by Misiak
. . .

And who the heck wants to use iPhone earbuds on a piano ? laugh I tried ones just for test and the sound was like a crap. And short cable of course smile


iPhone earbuds might be bad. But if you upgrade the earbuds -- like to Shure SE215 -- you'll get good quality and high volume.

I wonder:

. . . Is the FP-30 headphone amp weaker than other DP's ?

I have three headphones to test, now (Senn HD280 / AKG K240 Studio / SE215) and can bring them into the music shop's FP-30. They know me there, crazy man who bangs on DP's.<g>



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2574728
09/28/16 07:31 PM
09/28/16 07:31 PM
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Coincidentally, I posted just the other day about a similar finding with a 6-year-old Yamaha CP50. I've been using $25 Sennheiser HD 201s for practice, and eventually it really bothered me that they were so quiet I often had to max out the master volume (which resulted in distortion/cracking when playing triads/chords of mid to high notes). Sound familiar? These phones had especially low impedance of 24ohm too, so I didn't know what was going on.

I borrowed a set of HD 280 Pros (64ohm) to troubleshoot, and these headphones were louder at 50% volume than the HD 201s were at 100%. Plus, no cracking at all. I certainly can't explain it, but I suspect your theory that the DP is adjusting for the impedance of the phones is as good as any explanation. In any case, I know I'm in the market for new headphones, and it was really interesting to see your post here.

I'm primarily interested in open-backed phones for the wider soundstage and ability to hear what else is going on in the house while I play, but I've never used this type of headphone before and I'm a bit hesitant to pull the trigger. And hearing of your varied experience with multiple phones, I'm even more hesitant now smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Charles Cohen] #2574767
09/29/16 02:36 AM
09/29/16 02:36 AM
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Misiak Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by Misiak
. . .

And who the heck wants to use iPhone earbuds on a piano ? laugh I tried ones just for test and the sound was like a crap. And short cable of course smile


iPhone earbuds might be bad. But if you upgrade the earbuds -- like to Shure SE215 -- you'll get good quality and high volume.

I wonder:

. . . Is the FP-30 headphone amp weaker than other DP's ?

I have three headphones to test, now (Senn HD280 / AKG K240 Studio / SE215) and can bring them into the music shop's FP-30. They know me there, crazy man who bangs on DP's.<g>



Don't know about SE215 but for me plugs are very uncomfortable for prolonged use (more than 10 mins) and they can hardly compete with professional monitoring headphones. But I agree they would be definitely loud enough smile

Yes, best is to test them right in the store on desired piano but I recommend you to buy circumaural headphones. Make sure you test them on max. volume with turned of key sensitivity. Play some triads or best is to press all the keys with your palm and hear if you can notice any distortions.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Gombessa] #2574769
09/29/16 02:57 AM
09/29/16 02:57 AM
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Misiak Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Coincidentally, I posted just the other day about a similar finding with a 6-year-old Yamaha CP50. I've been using $25 Sennheiser HD 201s for practice, and eventually it really bothered me that they were so quiet I often had to max out the master volume (which resulted in distortion/cracking when playing triads/chords of mid to high notes). Sound familiar? These phones had especially low impedance of 24ohm too, so I didn't know what was going on.

I borrowed a set of HD 280 Pros (64ohm) to troubleshoot, and these headphones were louder at 50% volume than the HD 201s were at 100%. Plus, no cracking at all. I certainly can't explain it, but I suspect your theory that the DP is adjusting for the impedance of the phones is as good as any explanation. In any case, I know I'm in the market for new headphones, and it was really interesting to see your post here.

I'm primarily interested in open-backed phones for the wider soundstage and ability to hear what else is going on in the house while I play, but I've never used this type of headphone before and I'm a bit hesitant to pull the trigger. And hearing of your varied experience with multiple phones, I'm even more hesitant now smile


Hmm, it's really strange you had these cracking issues with such low impedance and high sensitivity headphones if they were so quiet. I would say more they are somehow broken smile

But definitely it adapts the impedance of headphones and I think FP-30 amp is not good enough to drive higher impedance headphones.

I also wanted open back because its soundstage but I've found ATH-50x and also DT770Pro has very good soundstage as well and perfectly suitable for me. Moreover, because they are closed you can practice at night without being disturb anyone. And third, there are usually much louder than open back headphones. And you can hear what's going on as well, it's not definitely like you can't hear anything laugh

This I've never understood why people think with closed headphones you can't hear environment noise.

I recommend you to test also these closed back headphones if you have a chance. Look for 32 ohm impedance and highest sensitivity possible.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2574927
09/29/16 04:41 PM
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Misiak Offline OP
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What do you guys think of AKG 550 mkii ? Theoretically these could be even more suitable for piano with very low impedance of 32 ohm and high sensitivity - 114 db. Have anyone tried them with digital pianos ?

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2574933
09/29/16 05:18 PM
09/29/16 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Misiak
Hmm, it's really strange you had these cracking issues with such low impedance and high sensitivity headphones if they were so quiet. I would say more they are somehow broken smile


Agreed, there's something going on with them. They sound fine when plugged into a smartphone 3.5mm jack, so I'll keep them around, but they're definitely not working with the piano.

Originally Posted by Misiak

I recommend you to test also these closed back headphones if you have a chance. Look for 32 ohm impedance and highest sensitivity possible.


I checked out some HD 280 Pros. They worked great, and I've got nothing against closed back headphonesn (those are all I've ever used). I'm just looking for something new, and I've got a young child in the house so I think that being able to be more situationally aware while playing will let me play a little bit more than I get to now smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575001
09/30/16 12:20 AM
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This may be stating the obvious, but have you tried a headphone amp? I think it may be an easier solution than trying a multitude of headphones.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Tim P] #2575108
09/30/16 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim P
This may be stating the obvious, but have you tried a headphone amp? I think it may be an easier solution than trying a multitude of headphones.


Yes, I've tried but it did not resolve the issue with cracking noise and it introduced lot of hum (Bravo Audio v3, have no idea what's the impedance of this thing). This piano is extremely impedance sensitive. Engineers should improve this because it's pretty annoying over appx. 50 ohms.

Anyway, I don't want to use piano with ext. amplifier. It's just overkill.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575118
09/30/16 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Misiak

Anyway, I don't want to use piano with ext. amplifier. It's just overkill.


+1. Even if a headphone amp solved the problem, having another powered device in the chain is a hassle I just don't want to deal with at this time.

In other news, I got a set of Sennheiser HD 598s in yesterday (yes I know they were just replaced with a new lineup less than a week ago), and the difference from my $20 pair was literally breathtaking. I'm not a hi-fi geek at all, but the difference in tone and detail with these phones was tremendous, I actually felt moved while playing, which is kind of a big deal for me.

The odd thing is, I still have to jack up the volume pretty high on the DP to power the 598s. If I had to guess, I would say the DP really cranks down the headphone amp when 20-50ohm phones are plugged in, and cranks it up with >50ohm phones. At least I'm not hearing any distortion/cracking with the 598s on higher volumes.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575144
09/30/16 03:06 PM
09/30/16 03:06 PM
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There is a basic misunderstanding about impedance in this discussion. Solid state amplifiers do not change their output impedance. They simply attempt to drive whatever load (impedance) is presented to them. Speaker and headphone impedances are listed with a 'nominal' value. The actual impedance is highly dependent on the frequency being fed to the load.

It sounds to me like your DP amplifier is f**ked up. No amp of any kind should make cracking noises.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: prout] #2575156
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Thanks for the clarification prout, sound engineering isn't my thing, so I'm just running with whatever more knowledgeable people here say.

Also, since only one set of headphones experiences the distortion/crackling at high volume, I'm inclined to believe there's something going on with the headphones rather than the DP. In any case, switching headphones solves the problem, so there's probably not much else worth following up on at this point! smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575159
09/30/16 04:00 PM
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Yes, it probably was the headphones if only one pair had the problem.

I am glad you solved the problem. Now have fun playing.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575167
09/30/16 04:28 PM
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I just tested my store's FP-30 with both Senn HD280 Pro (marked 64 ohms) and my new AKG K240 Studio (marked 55 ohms) headphones.

I did similar tests with my own PX-350 headphone output, and my Behringer Xenyx 802 mixer "phones" output.

The salesman at the headphone store, who warned me that he didn't carry AKG K240's because they were "hard to drive", was dead on.

With the AKG K240's, on both the PX-350 and FP-30, I had to max-out the DP's volume control to get satisfying volume out of them.

. . . The FP-30 headphones amp _did not_ misbehave in any way -- no crackles, no distortion -- at its
. . . maximum output. So I think the original complaint is unfounded; at least, I couldn't reproduce it.


The Behringer mixer has enough "Phones" output to drive the K240's to uncomfortably-loud levels. My MicroKorg XL+ "Phone" output will drive them loud enough for a studio; I might want more volume, for live performance.

I tried the K240's on several other DP's in the store -- a few Yamaha's and Rolands -- and they all had enough volume to drive them to comfortable "acoustic-piano" volume.

So there's a real problem, for some people:

. . . The FP-30 needs a stronger headphone amp, if one wants to drive "difficult" headphones like K240's.


The Senn HD280's were plenty loud on all instruments -- uncomfortably loud at maximum volume. It's not just an impedance difference; the HD280's are more efficient than the K240's.

It would be helpful if manufacturers gave us some specs for headphone amp capabilities -- so many volts peak-to-peak, into so many ohms. And also, if the headphone makers gave us data for headphone efficiency, and all used the same units for reporting it.






Last edited by Charles Cohen; 09/30/16 04:35 PM.

. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575186
09/30/16 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Misiak
Originally Posted by Tim P
This may be stating the obvious, but have you tried a headphone amp? I think it may be an easier solution than trying a multitude of headphones.


Yes, I've tried but it did not resolve the issue with cracking noise and it introduced lot of hum (Bravo Audio v3, have no idea what's the impedance of this thing). This piano is extremely impedance sensitive. Engineers should improve this because it's pretty annoying over appx. 50 ohms.

Anyway, I don't want to use piano with ext. amplifier. It's just overkill.


I've not tried it, but I believe that's a very good headphone amp. If possible I'd try to find another FP-30, perhaps a store in your area has one on display, and see if it has the same issue to make sure there's not a problem with yours.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: prout] #2575191
09/30/16 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by prout
There is a basic misunderstanding about impedance in this discussion. Solid state amplifiers do not change their output impedance. They simply attempt to drive whatever load (impedance) is presented to them. Speaker and headphone impedances are listed with a 'nominal' value. The actual impedance is highly dependent on the frequency being fed to the load.

It sounds to me like your DP amplifier is f**ked up. No amp of any kind should make cracking noises.


I do not know if I've helped contribute to some of this misunderstanding but I did recently ask/seek .... and lament about the apparent crapshoot mystery of getting headphones suitably matched for a given DP.... and while thinking out loud wondered if phone jacks can adjust their signal to different headphones "loads". There has since been a lot of discussion over multiple threads but this is generally still a mystery for me. If I want to get decent results with headphone attached to major brand DP phones jack, and do not want to also buy headphone preamp and just wanna get plugNplay headphones ...... is this asking too much of the collective industry involved?

What is a typical consumer expected to do in order to buy headphones with some confidence they will perform reasonably well IE. their impedance will generally be in range of matching the amp driving the phones jack on a given DP ? If brand A phones are nominal 40 ohms, brand B 223 ohms, brand C 500 ohms, is the typical consumer suppsed to know which of these will work well with a given DP .... or should they be expected to bring an audio enginer when shopping for phones? Do DP manufactures build DPs with at least relatively standard output level on the phones jack IE. similar to the somewhat loose but typical "line out" level, or are makes and models all over the map? Since many DPs phone jack output level mirrors the master volume control, does this complicate the hunt for suitable heafphones? Is this a reason why many DPs are bundled with headphones or do the bundlers themselves not know how to match phones to DP and just swag it?



- Kawai MP7 w/ MDR7506 phones and LSR308 monitors
- Roland HP-508
Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575228
09/30/16 09:41 PM
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That brings in yet more misunderstanding. frown There's match. And then there's match.

I think your use of the term "match" is meant to denote suitability of a given headphone for use with a given piano. If it works well, it's a "match" (in the conventional sense of the word).

Then there's "impedance match" ... a situation in which the source (piano) output impedance matches that of the load (headphone). Where there is an impedance match there is a maximum transfer of power from source to load.

Second point, regarding your lament ...

Typical consumer equipment works well with low-impedance headphones. Those are the common, most-sold types. Any old source (piano, CD player, etc.) will likely work fine with any old (low-Z) headphones. And such should likely be Misiak's choice of phones for use with his piano.

Only when you move into the higher-priced units do you start to see high-impedance headphones. I suspect that people who buy high-end equipment either know how to deal with the situation or are instructed on what to do ... which might be "buy a headphone amplifier".

But I suspect that none of this applies to Misiak's problem. I'm inclined to agree with Tim P. There's something wrong with the equipment. Perhaps it's the piano?


Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575233
09/30/16 10:09 PM
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All good points drewr. With preamps and line in/line out concerns we are talking about voltage, not power. This generally means that line in impedances at the preamp are in the 1 to 2k ohms for mics and up to 1Mohms for guitar pickups. You want to use a low impedance source to drive a high impedance line in.

But, with headphones and speakers, we are talking about power. Nevertheless, the same basic rules apply. The headphone output impedance should be about 1/8 the impedance of the headphones. High end headphone amps usually have an output impedance of about 2 ohms, making it easy to drive just about any pair of headphones.

So, if your DP has a low enough output impedance, it can easily drive most headphones. But, if the output impedance is, say, 120 ohms, it will have a very hard time driving 50 ohm headphones at a reasonable level.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: prout] #2575243
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Originally Posted by prout

So, if your DP has a low enough output impedance, it can easily drive most headphones.


This is not true at all. Just because a DP may have a low output impedance in no way guarantees that it will be able to drive most phones. For any given pair of headphones, to determine whether the DP can drive them loud enough, we need to know whether the DP can put out sufficient voltage and current to drive those headphones, and it's rare that sufficient information is provided by the DP manufacturer, I think.

There is a trend to low voltage, low impedance. So, if you can't try the headphones with the DP before you buy them, the safest option is to buy low impedance headphones.

Greg.


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Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: sullivang] #2575292
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Originally Posted by sullivang
Originally Posted by prout

So, if your DP has a low enough output impedance, it can easily drive most headphones.


This is not true at all. Just because a DP may have a low output impedance in no way guarantees that it will be able to drive most phones. For any given pair of headphones, to determine whether the DP can drive them loud enough, we need to know whether the DP can put out sufficient voltage and current to drive those headphones, and it's rare that sufficient information is provided by the DP manufacturer, I think.

There is a trend to low voltage, low impedance. So, if you can't try the headphones with the DP before you buy them, the safest option is to buy low impedance headphones.

Greg.


You are correct. But, there is more to the issue than just being able to drive headphones.

The ratio of DP headphone amp output impedance to headphone impedance is critical to the proper functioning of the headphones. Loading, Frequency response and damping are all affected by the this ratio. If the ratio is close to 1:1, the headphones can sound boomy due to lack of damping and the frequency response curve is much, much less flat.

It makes much more sense, if the player desires truly good acoustic reproduction, to buy an outboard headphone amp of known quality and specifications.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: prout] #2575301
10/01/16 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That brings in yet more misunderstanding. frown There's match. And then there's match....


Yes macmacmac, somewhat of an unintended double entendre and no, as you said, while not relevent to Misiak's specific problem my lament is more for the overall general state of DP-Headphones match mystery. Thanks for your input.


Originally Posted by sullivang
.....For any given pair of headphones, to determine whether the DP can drive them loud enough, we need to know whether the DP can put out sufficient voltage and current to drive those headphones, and it's rare that sufficient information is provided by the DP manufacturer, I think...... the safest option is to buy low impedance headphones.

Greg.


Yes, Sulivan! DP specs relevent to hearing the audio via the line-out and or internal speakers .... dBs ... milivolts .... Watts and such, all routinely listed and poured over accordingly, but when the sound is redirected to the phones jack attached to phones, it might be noted the jack is 1/4 or 1/8 or 6,3 but otherwise I don't know jack (intended ; ). Thank you.

Having recently replaced ES7 with MP7, I am now on the second reading of the 40-plus pages of MP7 User thread looking, on the off chance, for any stray tidbit mention of spec relevent_to_phones_jack. Unless I missed it ( not difficult for my eyes) I have not found such, yet. While I am not as dogged about headphones performance as some of the really staunch enthusiasts, I have noticed that the trusty SONY phones that - plugNplay BTW - have suited so well with ES7 since day 1, still sound mostly okay BUT sound different and do not play quite as well with the MP7 ..... so now I am wondering why and also deliberating whether to leave it alone or to investigate further IE. Given tne aforementioned rare sufficient information, am I in the mood to play a little of the chase game of swapping in various makes and models of headphones which I currently do not have the faintest idea if they are available in this area to try before buy?

Originally Posted by prout
All good points drewr. With preamps and line in/line out concerns we are talking about voltage, not power. This generally means that line in impedances at the preamp are in the 1 to 2k ohms for mics and up to 1Mohms for guitar pickups. You want to use a low impedance source to drive a high impedance line in.

But, with headphones and speakers, we are talking about power. Nevertheless, the same basic rules apply. The headphone output impedance should be about 1/8 the impedance of the headphones. High end headphone amps usually have an output impedance of about 2 ohms, making it easy to drive just about any pair of headphones.

So, if your DP has a low enough output impedance, it can easily drive most headphones. But, if the output impedance is, say, 120 ohms, it will have a very hard time driving 50 ohm headphones at a reasonable level.


Thank you Prout. You too have hit upon familiar characteristics - volts/watts/ohms/amps - relevant to using headphone speakers with DPs . The same basic rules apply but there seems to be an unspoken code that the important specs corresponding to these characteristics are not widely known in consumer land.


Last edited by drewr; 10/01/16 10:53 AM.

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Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575303
10/01/16 09:22 AM
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Let me just say that I had NO idea what kind of quagmire I was stepping into here smile I completely naively assumed that if it said "headphone jack," you could plug in headphones and it would work to an acceptable degree.

Like everything else down the rabbit hole though....


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Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Gombessa] #2575309
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A necessary quagmire, IMO.

acceptable - the subjective qualifier ever-present, it seems, in the eyes, ears, tongue and other senses of folks dealing with things DP.


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Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Misiak] #2575321
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It's interesting that DP manufacturers are reluctant to provide headphone amp impedance data. Lazy? Vested interest? Who knows.

The issue of impedance is often missed in the list of variables discussed when choosing headphones (or passive speakers). People will often say they tried this or that headphone and it sounded cystal clear or muddy on their DP or system while other people argue it was just the opposite on their system. The differences may be in the person's own acoustic response, but is more likely in the impedance match or mismatch of the system to the headphones.

In an ideal system, the amp output impedance would be 0 ohms, not possible of course, which could power anything, but some high end speaker amps do have output impedances of less than 1 ohm.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: Gombessa] #2575355
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It's really NOT a quagmire. Most times you just plug it in and it works. Misiak's problem is an uncommon oddity.
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Let me just say that I had NO idea what kind of quagmire I was stepping into here smile I completely naively assumed that if it said "headphone jack," you could plug in headphones and it would work to an acceptable degree.

Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: prout] #2575498
10/02/16 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by prout


You are correct. But, there is more to the issue than just being able to drive headphones.

The ratio of DP headphone amp output impedance to headphone impedance is critical to the proper functioning of the headphones. Loading, Frequency response and damping are all affected by the this ratio. If the ratio is close to 1:1, the headphones can sound boomy due to lack of damping and the frequency response curve is much, much less flat.

It makes much more sense, if the player desires truly good acoustic reproduction, to buy an outboard headphone amp of known quality and specifications.


Yes, I am aware of this, however I consider the impedance ratio to be a secondary factor. If I had the choice between a system where the headphones were loud enough, or the impedance ratio was less than ideal but not loud enough, I'd choose the former. It is by no means a given that if the impedance ratio is not ideal, that the fidelity will be adversely affected. Just for example, I can't tell the slightest difference when I switch my AKG K601 headphones between a headphone amp with a 5 ohm output, and my integrated hifi amp that has a whopping 220 ohm output. However, the K601s do have a flat impedance vs frequency curve.

If anyone does care about the impedance ratio, and the output impedance of the DP is not known and can't be obtained - buy a headphone amp and be done with it, and you don't need to spend all that much to get a good one these days, and there are many that are compact and battery operated.

Greg.


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Re: Roland FP-30 and headphones - read if you want to buy one !! [Re: MacMacMac] #2575578
10/02/16 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
It's really NOT a quagmire. Most times you just plug it in and it works. Misiak's problem is an uncommon oddity.


Eh, well it's exactly the same uncommon oddity problem I ran into with a DP from a different manufacturer/generation smile So absent identical problem/symptom, I still see it as a bit of a quagmire.


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