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Hi everyone! James here, and can someone please inform me the MSRP of a Steinway in Germany in Euro? Just font really know how to take a trip and buy the piano there, do I buy directly from the factory? Or go to factory first and select one and buy it from the dealer?

Are you in the USA? I know that in Europe, all Steinway showrooms (that is, the ones owned by Steinways, not necessarily the agents) can sell both Hamburg and USA models, so I presume it's the same case in America.

Go to your Steinway dealer, and tell them you want to buy a Hamburg Steinway, and you can arrange a trip to Hamburg to select your piano, or your dealer can have one selected and brought over for you.

For Steinway though, I'm of the opinion that neither Hamburg nor New York models are better, but it depends on which individual piano you prefer, and what kind of preparation it has had. There is a slightly different tonal profile between Hamburg and New York Steinways, but both are typically Steinway.

Joe,

I always enjoy your posts and usually I agree with you, but try walking through American showrooms and then walking through European showrooms. There is simply a marked difference, at least from my perspective.

Prep has much to do with that but the tonal spectrum of each piano is a bit different. I feel it may be a cultural thing, but professional friends of mine (Yuja Wang, Marc Andre Hamelin) who play internationally have shared those feelings with me as well.

To the OP, going to your local dealer is a start. Please share where you are located. That would help.

My 2 cents,

Thanks Joe!
I'm just wondering whether it will be better to buy it over there than order it through a dealer in US since they told me that the price for me to order one hamburg steinway is 1.6 times more expensive than the New York model. So since in Germany I can actually be excluded from the 19% value added tax and it will be in fact cheaper than if I order it through a American dealer. That's why I need the MSRP of Hamburg steinway in euro and that way I can calculate the actual difference in cost.

James, remember that the US purchase price for a Hamburg Steinway probably factors in the cost of overseas transport and US import duty (4%). The price in Germany will be exclusive of that cost. Moreover, your state may impose a use tax equal to the state sales tax that will have to be paid before the piano is released by customs. Furthermore, should you purchase a used Steinway in Germany, and it has ivory keys, you will need a CITES license to bring it here, and obtaining this can be difficult and very expensive. When all this is factored in, you might be best off dealing with a US S&S dealer who can negotiate these matters for you.

Having spoken with various Steinway reps throughout Europe, Canada and the USA, there is a somewhat unspoken policy that you are supposed to buy within your geographical area. So when I was in the UK inquiring about purchasing a Hamburg piano to bring back to Canada, I was told specifically that Steinway as an organization does now want to allow that. The Steinway Hall in London told me to go back to my own dealer and ask them to order a Hamburg (which they can).

However, if you insisted that you wanted a particular piano at the Steinway Hall in London, the manager said he would try to persuade me to go back and order it, but if I really really wanted a piano there and had the money in hand, he couldn't exactly say absolutely not allowed, especially for personal use, implying if I insisted hard enough, he could potentially send a piano to Canada where I live.

I've also heard some anecdotal evidence that dealers or stores that have tried to buy up used Hamburg Steinways from Europe to sell in North America were called by Steinway themselves and told they were not allowed to do that. I've only heard this in passing though, so I'm not sure of its validity.

Here in Canada, my own geographical dealer has said the Hamburg is about 30% more expensive to buy here, however, duties and shipping costs are already worked into the cost. 12% tax is still extra on top of the price. Whereas, if I were to buy one from Germany, it is 7% duty and 12% sales tax, plus the shipping price and brokerage fees to clear customs which is undoubtedly in the thousands at least, if not tens of thousands.

I'm in the same dilemma myself. I'm not looking to buy one really soon, but I always have this issue at the back of my mind.

Have you tried to contact a Steinway dealer in Hamburg to ask about the price and if they would/or wouldn't sell to the US?

Actually I haven't contact to any of the dealers in Germany. I just don't have any ideas how to contact them. Since according to Larry fine, if you actually buy a steinway from Germany it end up being cheaper than if you just buy it in US off the MSRP

The Euroconcert website shows European prices for Steinway:
www.euroconcert.fr/50-piano-steinway-sons

VAT is 20% in France. Good chance German prices are not too far off.

You can always try your luck with them see if they would ship a Steinway to the US.

Cheers,
C

Just a piece of information about the shipping (it would change now)

In 1997, I shipped my Grotrian Steinweg 192 cm (bought in 1991) from Paris to Los Angeles through a transporter introduced by Hanlet (I love Hanlet, always professional).

The cost is 10000 Frs(about $US 2000 at that time) including: insurance, cleaning inside piano (I did not ask this service, but they just do it), wrap piano in plastic, build a wooden crate to protect the piano, transport piano from Paris to a port in North of France by truck, then from Pas de Calais to Long Beach by ship. I only needed to take it from Long Beach port, no tax on US side, because it's considered household used article + maybe $100 clearance fee (don't remember exact amount, but insignificant)

Thank you for replying to me!
I am actually considering buying a new Hamburg Steinway. I can either buy one over there through a dealer in Germany or Us dealer. The main concern is that German might end up cheaper since there is no value added tax

I think you should try several new New York Steinways. You may find one you like as well as a Hamburg Steinway.

Mr.Guo, have you considered non-steinway pianos at all, and are you only considering brand new pianos (used hamburger steinways are around in north america)? you might like mason&hamlin, grotrian steinweg (sold as grotrian in the u.s. because of a steinway lawsuit), steingraeber for example. if a prominent, would-be high prestige company in the u.s. discouraged me from buying an alternative brand that they own, my inclination would be to take my commerce elsewhere.

Thanks, Chewbacca! It really helped a lot. Yes, I think the VAT in Germany is about 19%. And if you times the German MSRP by 81% and switch to dollar! you get a price about 77000 dollars for a model a and even if I add the possible 4000 shipping cost, it is still cheaper than if I buy a New York Model.

Because of Brexit and the favorable exchange rate, another option to pencil out is buying in the U.K. and shipping from there.

there are incidental costs of travel to visit the showroom and test play the pianos in the 'buy abroad' plan. would rather go to London than Germany, myself, but those with a knack for dealing with the gracious Deutsche Volk would have their preferences.

Correct me if I'm wrong but one wouldn't have to pay US local sales tax if importing form Europe? Just the 4-6%?

Also wonder if you can use AMEX and get the preferential exchange rate?

I shipped my Bösendorfer 170 from Brussels to Chicago. Bösendorfer shipped a packing crate from Vienna to Brussels. The airfreight around 10 years ago was $ 7,500 including insurance. It was only out of my sight for 2 days. I heard of a horror story where due to high seas pianos can get water logged in addition to taking 4 weeks or so!

Also, I don't know if it is still the case but the Hamburg Steinways used to have a high polished composite resin like Bösendorfers whereas the NY Steinway has an ebony finish. I'm not sure if that is still the case. I love the resin. It is very hard to scratch and very easy to keep polished.

Best wishes to you.

Steve
Bösendorfer

Thank you for replying! The thing is that in London I wouldn't have as much choice as I have in Germany. I wanted to go the factory and pick one there and then buy it from a German dealer or order it through a American dealer.

It doesn't work like that if you start with the VAT inclusive price. You need to divide by 1.19 to get the price excluding VAT.

OH, that's interesting. I heard VAT is acutually taxes company pay to the government and since tax doesn't apply to foreigner so that means they should deduct their price as well isn't it?

I don't know about duties in the USA, but definitely check with the customs and immigration department to see if there's any extra costs. We have to pay sales tax of my own province and extra duties for bringing the piano in.

Also in terms of shipping. Last time I inquired about shipping a piano from NYC to here, the quote was 6000 USD including customs clearance so I was assuming from Europe it would be more expensive.

Any steinway dealer would be able to arrange for you to pick a piano at the Hamburg showroom if you wanted. However, last time I went to London's Steinway Hall they had at least 4 new Bs and 4 new Ds in one room, plus some others in various parts of the hall, so the choice was plentiful. Plus they were all in excellent prep and condition that I had a very hard time finding one I preferred over another.

Actually, if you want to go to the factory, it works in reverse. You have to choose the dealer and purchase the piano first, then they arrange a date for you to go and pick your piano. My local dealers in Canada tells me if I want a Hamburg, the picking date is usually within a few months from the date I pay, and delivery may be up to 6 months from when I buy it. I don't know if this is true as I don't know if the factory in Hamburg has a showroom attached and sells directly out of there...But, I was told you can't go to the factory and pick a piano first, then decide who/where to purchase it from as in dealers or consultants.

Edit: Also VAT returns for London, was told I had to pay the full price including VAT and get it returned through a separate application and that Steinway wouldn't be able to take the price off from the sale. Also I don't think you get the full 20% back, I think there's some other fees and clauses where the salesperson estimated (if i recall correctly) that I would get only about 16-17% back.

Are you sure about this? London is a major center for piano performance, and I would expect the Steinway showroom there to have a good selection.

i was at the Steingraeber factory last year, and they told me that I would find a better selection of their pianos at Hurstwood Farm in the UK. Many factories ship most of their pianos as soon as they are ready, as they have orders waiting to be filled.

Maybe the Hamburg Steinway factory is different, and is making pianos much faster than they are being ordered, and therefore has a large surplus on hand. But I would not count on that without verifying it somehow.

Thank you so much for your prompt reply! The thing is that I would rather go to Germany than to go UK for a trip. Maybe I can find a dealer first, buy it and then they can negotiate the visit to factory. Also, another option for me is that just tell the US dealer to order it without me picking it I don't have to take a trip. The thing about that is that I'm not sure the one being ordered is the one has the quality I want.

I am fairly certain that, in order for the piano to have any sort of manufacturer's warranty, you are at least bound to purchasing through the dealer network in your home country. You can still pick one that's a Hamburg model, of course. Institutions do it relatively regularly.

Just noting it, should that matter to you.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hamburg-Steinway-Full-Concert-Grand-Piano-/222042480184?hash=item33b2c35e38:g:zmgAAOSwwpdW2TFP

If you visit Kim's (Orange County, California) you can also compare their Shigeru Kawai, Blüthner, and Estonia pianos. Then maybe visit Field's (Steinway dealer) and Living Pianos.

You aren't going to get 20% back, even if you get it all. You will get 1/6th which is 16.6%

Kim's also has a Kawai EX concert grand in their recital hall that you can try. It's a very nice instrument.

Oh, why is that? Because of some of the clauses?

It's because you're doing the math wrong...

For example, if the price is 10000, and VAT is 20%:

Your way assumes that the VAT amount is 20% of the sales price, or 2000. But 10000 - 2000 is 8000, and 8000 x 20% is only 1600, not 2000.

The sales price includes VAT, so it's 120% of the original value. Since the the total price, and the VAT rate are known, we can calculate the pre-VAT amount by dividing the sales price by 120% (AxB=C, so C/B = A).

10000 / 120 = 8333.33

The difference between the two is the VAT amount:

10000 - 8333.33 = 1666.67

So, with these hypothetical values, 1666.67 is what you'd get back.
Notice that 8333.33 + 1666.67 = 10000, the original price.

Factor for 20% . Divide by 1.2

10,000/1.2= 8333.33

Spoke to a few dealers who never mentioned about only partial amount being returned so I would be interested to hear what Phillip is talking about.

Oh! Thank you so much! So that means we just literally get the 16.6% of the sale price discount! but I still think it's a good deal.

The OP had said that German VAT is 19%. That is why I used the 1.19 figure.

In my limited experience one would get the whole amount back. Some countries run a different system where only part of a sales tax is refunded. Israel is an example. I think, however, that EU rules would be harmonised and so if UK repays all the VAT, Germany would do the same.

If buying a new German made product, and exporting it immediately to USA, what would be the advantage in taking it via a 3rd country? I think exports to non EU countries are zero rated anyway. It is, however, many years since I practiced accountancy in the EU. Rules change.

When I was purchasing my Hamburg Steinway about 5 years ago (I'm in the US) I first visited Steinway Hall in London and was told they would not sell me one for shipment to the US. They told me I had to purchase through my local Steinway dealer. I assume the same would be true if you tried to buy from a German dealer. My choice was to purchase one sight unseen from my local dealer or pay for it first and then go to the Hamburg factory to choose one. I did the latter. When I paid for it, my local dealer scheduled a visit to the Hamburg factory a few weeks later where I was able to select from 5 pianos of the same model. It was a great experience.

So the German dealer won't sell it to me?

I really don't know. Why don't you call and ask?