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Hi.
I've heard that Charles Walter piano cabinet build of real wood and not flakeboard or synthetic or whatever...
Is this one of the contributing factor that make the piano have better tone? Any opinion?

I am happen to be in the stereophile community for around 7 years and have done audition on a number of different speakers and realized that those speakers have real wood cabinet seem to have more solid base and more clarity in the higher frequency. Of course there're other factors that make a speaker sound good like size, type of tweeter, material of the woofer, the cone...and what type of amplifer that drive the speakers.... to name a few.

Thanks

Hello BW,

While it is true that everything used in the construction of a piano has the potential to influence tone, the cabinet of an upright piano is more or less attached around the resonating body of a piano.

Because if this the only resonance it can have would be sympathetic. There can be cabinet "buzzes" that are caused by this sympathetic resonance, but there is no design of cabinetry to influence tone.

IMHO though, a hardwood cabinet like Walters' can be more durable because it is easier to repair and refinish if necessary. Also, if there is damage to veneer that seals a composite material and the instrument takes on moisture, the stage is set for irreparable damage.

My 2 cents,

BWKRELL,

Why not you audition a bunch of different pianos and see if you can correctly guess, at a probability that is better than chance, which piano has "flakeboard" and which has "real wood" as far as cabinetry goes?

Whether you can tell the difference is question #1.

If you can't tell the difference, that's the end of the story to your initial question.

If you can tell the difference, question #2 is whether you find yourself mostly prefer the tone of one group to the tone of the other group.

Should you embark on this journey to audition pianos, I would be interested to hear how it goes for you.

Good luck.

The problem is that all other new high end uprights' cabinet contains veneer over compressed wood (MDF) . Please see recent thread I started "Compressed wood in high end german upright" I am sorry I do not know how to put the address in, but this is easily retrieved using the search function. From my research the only piano high end uprights that contain real wood or plywood are Charles Walter (5 ply), Steinway (poplar), and possibly August Forstner. From what I could tell Bluthner, Beckstein, Sauter, all contain veneer over MDF. I could not find out about Grotrian, Seiler, or Bosendorfer uprights. I presume they are the same. They web sites do not adress this feature. Of course the have a real wood soundboard, and a real wood frame.

Or possibly HDF.

My wife bought a physicians bookcase from a high-end furniture store once (think expensive) and the salesperson told her it was made of solid oak wood. Upon further examination I found that, although the glass door frames seemed to be sold wood, the majority of the unit was made of the particle board and finished to look like real wood.

I called the salesman and told him that he had misled my wife and the bookcase was certainly not solid oak wood. He said he didn’t tell her it was solid oak wood but that it was a solid piece of furniture. He said he would be glad to take the bookcase back and refund her money. Of course, she liked the bookcase and wanted to keep it (even though it was not solid wood).

To make this post relevant, I doubt very seriously that any piano manufacturers make piano cabinets that are not veneered or at least ply-wood type material. I would venture to say that most are the highly compressed particle board with the wood veneering. But that is just an assumption.

Great topic.

Rickster

Based on the reading I have done, I was under the impression that most manufacturers, even very high end ones, preferred to use engineered panels due to their greater structural rigidity and resistance to warping, but I could be wrong.

So which is heavier, compressed wood or real wood?

my experience with various particle boards has been that for the same size, compressed wood is heavier than solid wood or plywood.

it is also much more fragile and seems more susceptible to water damage. items made with it impart a real sense of "cheapness" to me.

maybe i'm just a wood snob , but if i were sinking high dollars into a piano i would much prefer that it not be made of particle board.

to relate to the original question: my general impression of audiophiles is that they are willing to pay for high quality componentry that often has hand craftsmanship and expensive parts, and i would think this taste may carry over to pianos.

Ark is correct. Walter and Steinway are the two KNOWN manufacturers not using particle board in the manufacture of their pianos. There might be a third, but these are the two companies that it's well known what their manufacturing methods are.

To BDB (Semipro Tech)
What is HDF. I presume it is High Density Fiberboard. I am sure it would be more dense or highly compressed than MDF, but in what ways would it differ functionally .
Steve

[/qb][/QUOTE]Ark is correct. Walter and Steinway are the two KNOWN manufacturers not using particle board in the manufacture of their pianos. There might be a third, but these are the two companies that it's well known what their manufacturing methods are. [/QB][/QUOTE]

what about Schimmel? i'm told that the lid is the most common place to use particleboard, and that Schimmel lids are real wood. have they sneaked it in somewhere other than the lid?

tm3: That's what I mean... there MAY be a third manufacturer that doesn't use particleboard, but you would think it would be in their advertising if they didn't. Steinway and Walter both advertise the fact that they've NEVER used any flakeboard/particleboard in the manufacture of their pianos.

My guess is that you'd have to look over the Schimmel website to see if they state the same as fact.

i'm kind of surprised that larry fine does not get more specific about this in his book. he describes different materials, but then leaves the reader to his own re finding out which pianos use what. how does a layman learn of the "guts" of a piano?

maybe get someone to distract the salesman, and then judiciously examine with an ice pick?

or ask those who are selling competing products?

Many manufactures do not apply a finish on the bottom of the two main side panels of their uprights. A flashlight and a thin mirror would come in handy...

Hi
Thanks for all the input folks.
At this point of my experience about piano, I don't know for sure if real wood cabinet make the piano sound better but rationally I like to think it does. I think real wood cost more than MDF and therefore only few piano manufactuers use it.
An instrument like violin, guitar, piano... all have strings a wood box. To me that wood box must plays a vital factor of how an instrument sound. Imagine if a violin, a guitar or a piano cabinet make out of aluminum (Al)...ouch...I can't even describe how it would sound, I rather wear my earplug. From that analogy one could extrapolate to the quality sound out of a real wood box. Real wood are rare nowaday, I like to think MDF is just one way to get around the cost and to increase the profit margin and also it's a lot more economy for mass produce instrument maker.
Just a rational thought.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this about the difference between plywood (which has many grades) and engineered composites (which also have many grades).

I can't imagine that Walter or anyone else assembles the side panels of a vertical from what the OP is calling 'real wood'. That would mean costly joining and gluing up of small solid wood planks into a panel.

To me, a plywood violin would be no better than one made of MDF. I don't think the comparison to a stringed instrument is valid. With piano side panels, it's going to be some kind of a sandwich in all instances. A good grade of strong engineered wood product (like MDF or furniture grade plywood and not like particeboard) with a good execution of the surface veneering is all you need.

Seriously, man, go play/listen to lots of pianos before you decide that what you like to think is "rational thought" really is "rational."

Lumber Core Plywood is manufactured from strips of solid lumber, typically basswood. The core is then surfaced and a veneer layer is applied. This is one of the most expensive plywood types to make, and is commonly used for applications where the edges cannot be concealed or need to be routed.
As the popularity of this product diminishes, it is becoming more and more difficult to locate suppliers who are willing to carry high grade sheets.

Medium Density Fiber Core Hardwood Plywood (MDF)
MDF is made from fine wood dust mixed with a binder and heat-pressed into panels. The sheets can be sold as-is, or a veneer skin, like oak or maple, can be laid up on the sheet.


Copied from
http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Articles/Plywood.htm

Thanks Rod, but what is your point?

Are you saying that lumber-core plywood is "real wood' or solid wood? Following up on the OP's comment, do you feel that a lumber-core plywood violin or guitar sound body would have acoustic advantages over a sound body of veneered MDF or HDF? Or in the case of a vertical piano where the end panels are secondary elements of the sound body and are not really under stress that the choice of lumber core plywood improves the musical quality of the instrument?

I understand that an exposed length-cut edge on lumber-core will probably look more presentable than a nine-ply sandwich or an MDF sandwich, but your quoted source also has this to say about lumber-core:

from waterfront-woods.com
"The quality of the core lumber is dropping in all but the best of grades. Most grades machine poorly. If the core is not glued up with consistent stock, voids can be present which will run the full length, or at least a portion of the full length, of the entire sheet."

and has this to say about MDF:

"This material is extremely stable to work with, and is typically very consistent from batch to batch. A 3/4" thick sheet purchased over a year ago is exactly the same thickness as a new sheet purchased today. The surface below the veneer is typically free of voids and blisters, resulting in a better veneer consistency and bond. With this better bonding of the wood veneer, there is less chipping during a crosscut operation. I have also observed that this material is easy to machine either by saw or router, and the cut edges are excellent for glue adhesion. (I have heard it mentioned that MDF is hard on cutters, but personally, I disagree with this statement. I feel that MDF is rather easy on the cutters.)"

From another source http://nirgos.com/glossary.htm

"Lumber-Core Plywood - Plywood where thin sheets of veneer are glued to a core of narrow boards. Lumber-core plywood differs from regular plywood in that regular plywood is made up of successive layers of alternating grain veneer."

Finally from Lumber Core Plywood - Figure 200-07 from AWI Standards, Seventh Edition

"Lumber Core: Lumber Core is manufactured from thin strips of lumber glued on edge and covered by veneer crossband perpendicular to the core's grain direction. When lighter cores are required to specific strength in one direction is required, lumber core is often used."

My point would be that they're all sandwiches: fried egg, chopped hard-boiled, or egg-salad , all of different density and weight, but still sandwiches whose cross-cut edges need to be concealed and whose sound-producing character resides mainly in the surface layer.