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Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572028 09/17/16 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ZeroZero
Will do, but at present the move has messed up the system pretty good. I have the shortcuts right (for those in the know)
but its not working.


As I said above I will do. Presently after moving the Steam Folder (which holds the sound files for all Spectrasonics stuff), Keyscape Trillian and Omnisphere are down. Spectrasonics does not have their own forum community, and public forums seem dead. So, I have to wait for tech to get back to my email. The correct way of moving the steam folder is not working here and returning it to its original location has not worked too. I am stuck, though I do know the correct procedure, Loading Keyscape's dll crashes Cubase 8.5 (64 bit). E mail sent.

Last edited by ZeroZero; 09/17/16 03:58 PM.
Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572037 09/17/16 04:12 PM
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I did not see anywhere to set the polyphony. The system settings options are pretty simple and idiosyncratic. I would have thought I would be able to change the location of the samples directory in a system setting, but not so, there is no option, it is automatically found. |If I search for it using the only method, then Cubase hangs and crashes. Note: I did have it all working until |I moved the Steam folder - using the correct procedures. I think I might need a new DLL file. Only way I can see is a full install of all three apps. Not today...

From playing the piano, I found no voice stealing, I am pretty busy with my fingers but nothing run away from me. I would be suprised if it were not full polyphony, Persing has a reputation to keep. I could be wrong of course.

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572045 09/17/16 04:19 PM
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Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572047 09/17/16 04:22 PM
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Looking into it now. Do they have a manual?

FAQ says,

"Does Keyscape include a manual?
All our instruments include a comprehensive online Reference Guide, which is accessible directly through the plugin. The integrated Reference Guide is searchable and we can keep it up to date with the software releases."

On moving the sample folder or steam application folder, does this video give you any hints as to what you may be doing wrong?



Here's also a how to move the Steam Directory from their website:
https://support.spectrasonics.net/manual/Omnisphere/get_started/page04.html

Last edited by ElmerJFudd; 09/17/16 04:38 PM.
Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572053 09/17/16 04:39 PM
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Keyscape manual

Thank you Elmer, but I dont think you will find the solution. I have correctly followed Spectrasonics own procedure and double checked it. I run in Win 10 anniversary edition, 64 bit, and am using Cubase 8.5 as my host. There is no standalone. The required shorcuts are pointing correctly. I think its a bug in the DLL. I have moved the Steam folder before and all was well.

Will try tomorrow or MOnday when they open shop. I am UK so the call costs a lot on my mobile.

Z

Last edited by ZeroZero; 09/17/16 04:40 PM.
Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572059 09/17/16 04:58 PM
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Thanks for sharing! Good luck with the fix!

Found how to raise/lower poly in the manual.

https://support.spectrasonics.net/manual/Keyscape/1/en/topic/optimization

64 is max poly (stereo). you can also use "sample thinning" which I assume is like using the same sample across multiple keys. Other typical and less than desirable methods like raising buffer and disabling fx come into play as expected.

Other issues for gigging players...
How's the patch change speed? And I assume no trick to keep previous sound sustaining during patch switching yet?

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ElmerJFudd #2572168 09/18/16 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ElmerJFudd

Load up the C7, hold the sustain pedal down and gliss the entire length of the keyboard repeatedly. Does the Steam Player control polyphony and use an algorithm to release notes in the background as they become softer of does it produce obvious abrupt ends of notes aka cutoffs? Or worse than that, does it not manage polyphony and allows system resources to become taxed/max-out and fail resulting in digital distortion, pops and clicks and such?.

This is really important when deciding if Keyscape/Omnisphere is viable as a live instrument like your RD700.

OK I have just got it working again. I shall post below about how difficult this was!

I did the gliss thing. I have thinning turned off and Keyscape is on a fast SSD (Samsung 850) and CPU Intel 5820 6 core I7 - could not find fault. Bear in mind I do not play real piano - only my 700NX.

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572170 09/18/16 01:20 PM
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That's good news. With thinning off Keyscape is using all the samples they intended to use. With pedal down glisses producing no audible drop out or cutoff with 16, 32 voices or 64 voices allocated - it sounds like they have employed a proper note stealing algorithm.

Now here's the real test of your 5820 i7 with the SSD and audio chipset/drivers. Lower your I/O Buffer size from 256 to 128 and do the same test. Pedal down, gliss up and down. Then try a buffer size of 64, then 32. If Keyscape can handle this, then your PC is doing a great job and they've done some efficient coding. The lower the buffer size, the more immediate you feel the note under your fingers on the keyboard controller you're using.

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572171 09/18/16 01:32 PM
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Installation Nightmare. Moral of the story do NOT move the Steam folder (the sound files) after you have installed Keyscape

In my case I followed the instructions emailed to me to the letter - changing my shortcuts as required (you will know about this if you try). Neither the original location (an old HHD drive) or the new location, was recognized by the VST (using Cubase 8.5 64). Up pops a message stating it could look for it, but when answered YES it hung - even after a couple of hours. If you cancel out from this option there is a flurry of off topic error messages and no way to navigate to the proper folders. Not only did Keyscape not work but also now Trilian and Omnisphere cant find Steam folder.
Being as it was a Sunday and I had not yet a reply from Spectrasonics, I decided to reinstall. Following instructions on Spectrasonics site, I deleted everything required and reinstalled Omnisphere 1 first
To my horror after I reinstalled I realized that my ancient DVDs were 32 bit. This meant that the 32 bit app did not show up in Cubase 64 bit! The only way to access the 64 bit version was through the app - I thought, so I had to download Cantibile ( a very basic sequencer) to run the app, to get the right updates.
Trilian disk 2 also gave problems (I remember this first time around). Only after I downloaded a fresh installer from Spectrasonics could I get the instal app to read the DVD. Eventual success.
Keyscape comes on two USB credit card size devices. The first proved very tricky to load into my USB ports only after 10 minutes of trying would it work. I think the plastic which houses the brass strips of the USB is too thin and sits badly in a typical USB port. The second usb card worked OK

After more updating I finally got everything to work, its taken about five hours and a lot of creative problem solving. The Steam folder is where I want it, on an SSD drive.


I still love the products, but I would say that they are not easy to install. Many other VSTs give a setting where you can determine where your sound files are held. Not so in Spectrasonics Omni, Trilian, and Keyscape - all are supposedly automatic - but crash here. The only way to move steam when you have keyscape installed is to move before install.
I do understand that the guys want to keep it simple, but sometimes not providing the correct options can be a game killer.

If I had NOT moved the Steam FOlder things would have been easier. I needed to do this as an SSD would make everything more responsive, this has now been achieved.

I get back to music and play it a while, then I will post again

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572174 09/18/16 01:45 PM
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ELmer. I have a Focusrite 56 for sound. I did your test being the latency down to 48 - all still fine, at 32 there were a few pops and crackles. I think the C7 is solid.

Tip: The velocity curve in the settings tab is very important. Spectrasonics say they have a list of default settings for common keyboards, they do, but very few of them. Bloating the straight line curve just a little paid off big time for me on my 700NX, one should not judge the instruments until this is done

SOunds very good, all the sounds are very good indeed - what you need.

Tip 2: Each keyboard takes a while to load . The C7 takes 1 minute 7 seconds on my very fast PC! To overcome this, each load has a 'preview' sound - nearly identical aurally but lacking a little. You can use a preview to quickly audit a sound, but if you want a final judgement on a sound wait the minute for it to load

Z

Last edited by ZeroZero; 09/18/16 01:52 PM.
Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572180 09/18/16 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ZeroZero
ELmer. I have a Focusrite 56 for sound. I did your test being the latency down to 48 - all still fine, at 32 there were a few pops and crackles. I think the C7 is solid.

Tip: The velocity curve in the settings tab is very important. Spectrasonics say they have a list of default settings for common keyboards, they do, but very few of them. Bloating the straight line curve just a little paid off big time for me on my 700NX, one should not judge the instruments until this is done

SOunds very good, all the sounds are very good indeed - what you need.

Tip 2: Each keyboard takes a while to load . The C7 takes 1 minute 7 seconds on my very fast PC! To overcome this, each load has a 'preview' sound - nearly identical aurally but lacking a little. You can use a preview to quickly audit a sound, but if you want a final judgement on a sound wait the minute for it to load

Z


Z -- Thanks for all of this great info about your experience. I'm glad that you've gotten things sorted out again.

For those of us with, shall we say, less robust systems than yours - can you try something out for us? Could you try "sample thinning" to the max, and then comment on how noticeably different the sounds and/or playability are?

FWIW, my laptop is just above minimum specs, but does have a fast SSD drive. I'm giving Keyscape some purchase consideration, but unfortunately can't test it out on my own system beforehand.

Thanks!


Bert
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Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572185 09/18/16 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ZeroZero
ELmer. I have a Focusrite 56 for sound. I did your test being the latency down to 48 - all still fine, at 32 there were a few pops and crackles. I think the C7 is solid.

Tip: The velocity curve in the settings tab is very important. Spectrasonics say they have a list of default settings for common keyboards, they do, but very few of them. Bloating the straight line curve just a little paid off big time for me on my 700NX, one should not judge the instruments until this is done

SOunds very good, all the sounds are very good indeed - what you need.

Tip 2: Each keyboard takes a while to load . The C7 takes 1 minute 7 seconds on my very fast PC! To overcome this, each load has a 'preview' sound - nearly identical aurally but lacking a little. You can use a preview to quickly audit a sound, but if you want a final judgement on a sound wait the minute for it to load

Z


thumb

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572188 09/18/16 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ZeroZero
If I had NOT moved the Steam FOlder things would have been easier. I needed to do this as an SSD would make everything more responsive, this has now been achieved.


Since you are using Windows (and if the disk is formatted with NTFS), in a similar situation in the future, consider using a folder junction (google "mklink", use the /J parameter). With a junction, you can move the folder to a different disk, with a different name, and create this "junction" on the original disk, with the original name to point to the moved folder on the other disk. To Windows (and all programs) this then looks as if the folder (and all files and subfolders in it) is still present on the original disk, when in reality it is now on the new disk, i.e. the ssd.

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572192 09/18/16 02:39 PM
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Thanks Jo but I have done it now and cannot test this

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
newbert #2572198 09/18/16 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by newbert
very good indeed - what you need.


Could you try "sample thinning" to the max, and then comment on how noticeably different the sounds and/or playability are?

FWIW, my laptop is just above minimum specs, but does have a fast SSD drive. I'm giving Keyscape some purchase consideration, but unfortunately can't test it out on my own system beforehand.

Thanks!


I don't think this would be a vALID test, as mine is a very fast MOBO, Chip and RAM. All optimized to the max. Also sample thinning is either off or on

Last edited by ZeroZero; 09/18/16 03:33 PM.
Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572506 09/19/16 08:17 PM
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I've been testing it for a few days. Keyscape is not easy to just install and play on a laptop. 8GB RAM is the minimum....and I have been having problems with that and a very fast PC. Macbook Pro users might fare better with 8GB, certainly 16GB RAM would be great, but that is hard to come by on a laptop.

BTW, I own every Spectrasonics product since the beginning with Stylus RMX, Trilogy, Trillian, Atmosphere, Omnisphere.....I use them all on my studio i7 desktop with 32GB Ram and RME interface. I haven't even started testing Keyscape on the desktop, I really wanted it working for upcoming live use.

With my Lenovo Yoga 2 Pro i7 and 8GB Ram, 512 SSD, Win 8.1 - using Cantabile 3 as a host. This system works great with Ravenscroft UVI, LOUNGE LIZARD and Kontakt live at 128 or 256 samples, but Omnisphere does put a demand on the system.

I'm having glitches in Keyscape at 128 samples no matter what I do.....even at 256 with "Thinning" on and voices set to 14 it will sometimes just choke. Obviously, that is too few voices to play most styles. I've tried 2 different interfaces: USB Motu Ultralite Hybrid and NI Traktor 2 MkII.....Then, ironically, I get best results with the built in headphone jack and ASIO4ALL driver at 256. I just don't know if I can trust this C7 in live performance. The Rhodes seems to be better.

This seems to be the deal with Spectrasonics, great sounds, but high demand on RAM and CPU.

Having said that, The C7 is beautiful, clear, resonant and not as bright as you would expect. Very inspiring to play. The Ravenscroft is a bit brighter....and still my overall favorite over all the other "working" VST pianos I own: Garritan CFX (2nd favorite), Galaxy Vintage D(NI Grandeur), Ivory Italian or American Steinway.

This reminds me a little of the unplayable Quantum Leap Pianos with PLAY interface I bought 6 years ago. Wasted $450. Also, Gospel Keys/Neo-Soul Keys (Rhodes) was a glitch prone, RAM and Processor demanding UVI based VST.

So, if Ravenscroft/UVI can make a very deep player that is very efficient, and includes a bunch of efx, why can't Spectrasonics do the same, since their Steam engine succeeded their using UVI for Atmosphere? Ravenscroft even scaled down the whole library to flac and it only takes up 5GB with 4 stereo mic positions to choose from and mix.

The C7 on Keyscape, even with Thinning feature - as it is now implemented- is not enough to scale it down to run glitch free on most systems, in my opinion. They should really rework some C7 patches to be "lite" versions, with more voices capability.

Any users who have better results, please chime in with your system and settings.

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572528 09/19/16 09:18 PM
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Thanks for the feedback. Very good to know. This thing apparently needs some kind of laptop. How many generations old is the Yoga? Which i7 does it have and have you run a DPC latency checker on it?
http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

Also, it sounds like it really would benefit from additional RAM.

Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ngk #2572543 09/19/16 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ngk
I've been testing it for a few days. Keyscape is not easy to just install and play on a laptop. 8GB RAM is the minimum....and I have been having problems with that and a very fast PC. Macbook Pro users might fare better with 8GB, certainly 16GB RAM would be great, but that is hard to come by on a laptop.

BTW, I own every Spectrasonics product since the beginning with Stylus RMX, Trilogy, Trillian, Atmosphere, Omnisphere.....I use them all on my studio i7 desktop with 32GB Ram and RME interface. I haven't even started testing Keyscape on the desktop, I really wanted it working for upcoming live use.

With my Lenovo Yoga 2 Pro i7 and 8GB Ram, 512 SSD, Win 8.1 - using Cantabile 3 as a host. This system works great with Ravenscroft UVI, LOUNGE LIZARD and Kontakt live at 128 or 256 samples, but Omnisphere does put a demand on the system.

I'm having glitches in Keyscape at 128 samples no matter what I do.....even at 256 with "Thinning" on and voices set to 14 it will sometimes just choke. Obviously, that is too few voices to play most styles. I've tried 2 different interfaces: USB Motu Ultralite Hybrid and NI Traktor 2 MkII.....Then, ironically, I get best results with the built in headphone jack and ASIO4ALL driver at 256. I just don't know if I can trust this C7 in live performance. The Rhodes seems to be better.

This seems to be the deal with Spectrasonics, great sounds, but high demand on RAM and CPU.

Having said that, The C7 is beautiful, clear, resonant and not as bright as you would expect. Very inspiring to play. The Ravenscroft is a bit brighter....and still my overall favorite over all the other "working" VST pianos I own: Garritan CFX (2nd favorite), Galaxy Vintage D(NI Grandeur), Ivory Italian or American Steinway.

This reminds me a little of the unplayable Quantum Leap Pianos with PLAY interface I bought 6 years ago. Wasted $450. Also, Gospel Keys/Neo-Soul Keys (Rhodes) was a glitch prone, RAM and Processor demanding UVI based VST.

So, if Ravenscroft/UVI can make a very deep player that is very efficient, and includes a bunch of efx, why can't Spectrasonics do the same, since their Steam engine succeeded their using UVI for Atmosphere? Ravenscroft even scaled down the whole library to flac and it only takes up 5GB with 4 stereo mic positions to choose from and mix.

The C7 on Keyscape, even with Thinning feature - as it is now implemented- is not enough to scale it down to run glitch free on most systems, in my opinion. They should really rework some C7 patches to be "lite" versions, with more voices capability.

Any users who have better results, please chime in with your system and settings.


Yikes!!!

Now that sounds discouraging. Especially since I just placed an order today for the boxed version (from Musician's Friend). Now I'm afraid to open the box when it arrives to try it out. (Not returnable after its opened....) Good thing that I had download problems, so opted for the boxed version.

My laptop is maxed out at 8 Gigs Ram and has an i5 processor (dual core) running at 2.3 Ghz. (Windows 7) However, it does have a fast SSD drive. Soundcard is a Steinberg UR-22 with its own ASIO driver.) Ravenscroft, Garritan CFX, Galaxy Vintage D and Lounge Lizard all run just fine albeit with some tweaking (all from within Reaper ).

But your review makes it sound like I'll have little chance at success with this puppy! 8(

What do you think? Does anyone else have any comments wrt performance on a barely above minimum spec'ed laptop?

BTW - Thanks so much for this review!

Last edited by newbert; 09/19/16 10:37 PM.

Bert
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Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ZeroZero #2572571 09/20/16 03:25 AM
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I just want to summarise my findings, I have played the instruments a lot yesterday:

Piano 8/10 very good

This is an exceptionally good library of very fine sounds definitely a goto like Omnisphere.

There is definitely an issue moving steam folder after installation - it will take down all your Spectrasonics products - except RMX. If you have Omnisphere you can go into this (or Trillian) and repoint to the correct location. I ended up reinstalling everything.

For some reason my updates are not available on my update page (I am in touch with tech) and I lack a tiny button seen below the Rel Noise button.

Sadly its not stand alone.

I have only run this on a fast PC, I expect it needs a reasonably decent machine to run on. I have maxed out the settings on my X99, 16 gig 6
64 bit Intel 5820 six core machine and it all goes.

Last edited by ZeroZero; 09/20/16 03:27 AM.
Re: Spectrasonics Keyscape
ngk #2572573 09/20/16 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ngk
I've been testing it for a few days. Keyscape is not easy to just install and play on a laptop. 8GB RAM is the minimum....and I have been having problems with that and a very fast PC. Macbook Pro users might fare better with 8GB, certainly 16GB RAM would be great, but that is hard to come by on a laptop.

BTW, I own every Spectrasonics product since the beginning with Stylus RMX, Trilogy, Trillian, Atmosphere, Omnisphere.....I use them all on my studio i7 desktop with 32GB Ram and RME interface. I haven't even started testing Keyscape on the desktop, I really wanted it working for upcoming live use.

With my Lenovo Yoga 2 Pro i7 and 8GB Ram, 512 SSD, Win 8.1 - using Cantabile 3 as a host. This system works great with Ravenscroft UVI, LOUNGE LIZARD and Kontakt live at 128 or 256 samples, but Omnisphere does put a demand on the system.

I'm having glitches in Keyscape at 128 samples no matter what I do.....even at 256 with "Thinning" on and voices set to 14 it will sometimes just choke. Obviously, that is too few voices to play most styles. I've tried 2 different interfaces: USB Motu Ultralite Hybrid and NI Traktor 2 MkII.....Then, ironically, I get best results with the built in headphone jack and ASIO4ALL driver at 256. I just don't know if I can trust this C7 in live performance. The Rhodes seems to be better.

This seems to be the deal with Spectrasonics, great sounds, but high demand on RAM and CPU.

Having said that, The C7 is beautiful, clear, resonant and not as bright as you would expect. Very inspiring to play. The Ravenscroft is a bit brighter....and still my overall favorite over all the other "working" VST pianos I own: Garritan CFX (2nd favorite), Galaxy Vintage D(NI Grandeur), Ivory Italian or American Steinway.

This reminds me a little of the unplayable Quantum Leap Pianos with PLAY interface I bought 6 years ago. Wasted $450. Also, Gospel Keys/Neo-Soul Keys (Rhodes) was a glitch prone, RAM and Processor demanding UVI based VST.

So, if Ravenscroft/UVI can make a very deep player that is very efficient, and includes a bunch of efx, why can't Spectrasonics do the same, since their Steam engine succeeded their using UVI for Atmosphere? Ravenscroft even scaled down the whole library to flac and it only takes up 5GB with 4 stereo mic positions to choose from and mix.

The C7 on Keyscape, even with Thinning feature - as it is now implemented- is not enough to scale it down to run glitch free on most systems, in my opinion. They should really rework some C7 patches to be "lite" versions, with more voices capability.

Any users who have better results, please chime in with your system and settings.


Have you checked all this stuff https://www.spectrasonics.net/support/knowledgebase_view_topic.php?id=650&categoryID=120

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