Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner - Non Classical Keeping a set list memorised? tips please.

I would regard myself as an intermediate jazz player. I play about 30 or so standards from memory - well sort of

My biggest problem is keeping pieces going. I tend to play freely using different voicings, so there is no one 'set piece' to learn, I play real book style, the melody is stylised and the chords are voiced differently each performance.

The hurdle I am trying to breach is remembering all the pieces at the same time. I can only seem to manage three or four pieces. I can usually dredge a piece back out from my memory, but this takes a while, sometimes days. Obviously this is no good for performance of a set.

Has anyone got any tips about keeping stuff alive?

Here's what I do : the important thing is that you have to practice recalling your pieces on a regular basis.

When you can't recall a piece easily, then you do it again the next day, every day, until it becomes fairly easy to recall.
If you can recall the piece fairly easily, then you can practice recalling it several days later.
If you can recall the piece very easily, then you can practice recalling it several weeks later.
Etc.... you keep increasing your recall period.

A common mistake is that you learn a piece, and for a couple days you can recall it, but then you don't touch it again for a month; in that case there's a good chance you'll have forgotten it when you need it.

It's all about how memory works. Some people smarter than us have studied this. Look up "spaced repetition" and "active recall".
There are apps that help you do this.

Another thing I've noticed is that your brain keeps working on a piece even if you're doing something else, so if you're in the memorizing phase for a given piece, it's useless to spend two hours on it. Spend 5 minutes on it, go do something else, and tomorrow you'll be surprised to find that you've memorized it better than you would have thought.

Hello ZeroZero, followed you over here from the pianist corner
Whether you're playing the exact notes or not, memorized pieces need to be kept active in order to be memorized.
I find the ear memory is most important, so listening to pieces, or hearing them in my head while I'm doing something else, helps keep them fresh in my mind.
For semi-improvised pieces or arrangements of standards sometimes a "road map" sheet can be helpful. List the sections, the chord progressions of each section, and any little reminders that may be helpful to you (like "bell thing happens here," "start finger 5 on C#" or whatever.) Then as the piece gets to be more securely in memory you can write out a new, smaller, cheat sheet that has less information. that might be a nice middle ground between fake book/real book and total memorization.
Once I had a student struggling to remember where she was in Happy Farmer by Schumann when preparing for a recital. We ended up just making her a little cheat sheet that had the names of the sections in order: A A B A1 B A1. That's all she needed.

When I'm actively working on memorizing something, I need to play it every day. But pieces I've performed many times over the years are usually 99% memorized and I just need a day or two with the score to brush them up and get them ready again. If I'm getting ready to perform something, though, I do need to play it every day for a month or so even if it's very old and familiar to me.

Music memory is the same as Language memory. If you do not use it often you will forget it. Only gets worse as you get older. I always keep a lead sheet handy. My problem is I can remember most of a song but parts will not sink into my thick head.

These replies are helpful thanks. Especially this bit:



Son of teddy: How long have you been playing please? Seems to me the terrain changes the longer you stay.

I stepped over from sax about eight years ago and I am sixty five. Sometimes my car keys goes missing - if you know what I mean

I think my weakness has something to do with whats in the 'bag', the 'cauldron' or 'pots'. I need to keep more in the simmer pan, throw more into the stock. There seems to be a frying pan memory (actively hot), a simmer pot memory and a freezer department. In my freezer I have quite a few numbers, but only four songs currently out of the cabinet.

Frankly I have memorized difficult sounds like Desfinado, but away from my instrument I could not even tell you a few notes/changes!

Learning a new song

When I read a new Real Book song, I get the essence of the melody and changes, but once that is mastered I close the book - it's just reference. I often don't see the page again.
I first learn one route through the changes, and at least one strong interpretation of the melody. I tend to use a lot of inversions and (very limited) subs. There is no telling where my fingers will end up, so there is no possibility of learning via a 'finger chart' approach. That's OK because the work on scales and chords has been done, I can get to stuff.

Recall
All this makes it harder to find out what precisely I am supposed to be working on/memorizing. Often the 'track' that I laid down is there somewhere, but because my technique and understanding has improved what is actually reconstructed is a 'developed' version of the thing I once knew. So, in a way its not a straightforward process? Its a reinterpretation. Each time I play its an interpretation.

So, I think your all guiding me to the simmer pot - make it more active? Good advice I think.

Do other people experience similar time scales when regurgitating numbers - forming a set list?

Eager to hear the experience of others. Interesting inputs from you all!

I've been playing seriously for about 30 years but got into methodically memorizing stuff (using the method I described) only about 5 years ago and it made a huge difference.

For songs like Desafinado that are a bit long winded, sometimes I split them up into small sections to be memorized one at a time, makes it seem less daunting

Step back from it and look at a bigger question: Why memorize at all? Who cares if you have a chart up while you play? We have it easier than the classical folks, because they play long enough pieces that they have to deal with page turns. We can just change charts between numbers.

I find that playing with the lead sheet, after a while things just get memorized without putting any effort into it. When I do play without the paper, the thing I find difficult is remembering which tunes I've already played in a set.... What to play next, ... did I already do that one...??

My answer:
Firstly, I tend to memorise everything and dont look at charts much. Trouble is it does not stay there for more than a month without having to relearn.
Secondly I am trying to develop a set list of around thirty numbers

Thirdly if others can do it so can I John

I suggest that you work at understanding some of the songs you are playing. Look at root movement in the standards. There is a lot of root movement UP A 4TH in classic jazz standards. "All The Things You Are" has a fairly long chain of chords whose roots move up a 4th. As an extreme example of this specific movement. I recently transcribed (i.e. figured out by ear using YouTube) "Mr. Sandman". Another song with extensive root movement UP A 4TH.

Other times roots move or UP a major 2nd, DOWN a third etc. There are common root movements like I VI II V and III VI II V. If you work at hearing these and noticing where they happen in the music, you struggle will be made easier.

You can sit at the piano and play through a jazz tune slowly, looking for patterns in the harmony. Not a simple thing, but if you work at it, over time you can start to see patterns. After you've started to SEE a harmonic pattern, the next step in your musical growth is to try and HEAR, or perceive that harmonic pattern. You can, over time, slowly come to understand how the music works. The nuts and bolts of the music, rather than a bunch of seemingly random chord names and alterations.

One standard that comes to mind is "Satan Doll". Try taking it apart, deconstructing it. Notice patterns that can be applied to other jazz standard tunes.

What I'm really saying in general is that if you develop your ears, memorization of songs will be much easier.

I used to make set lists, then never look at them.
I never said I was bright.
Fun to look back and see what I can still play.