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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: brooster] #2571492
09/15/16 07:32 AM
09/15/16 07:32 AM
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toddy Offline
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pedal-damper-key-string interaction is still a joke on most digitals.

Not a joke at all on my piano, which is an eight year old entry level model. Half pedalling and repedalling are very useable and, for me reasonably convincing, if not exactly like a well regulated acoustic. Decay times are admittedly short. However, I'd imagine more recent DPs would be better, especially if set up with the reputable VSTi instruments for fractionally higher cost.

I don't get the joke.


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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: JoeT] #2571493
09/15/16 07:34 AM
09/15/16 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by JoeT
Digitals are still far away from becoming a proper replacement even for an upright piano


What does 'proper' mean.

Properly reproducing all interactions with player and environment under all circumstances. A substantial part of piano technique still can't be practiced on a digital.

For example pedal-damper-key-string interaction is still a joke on most digitals.


Maybe the joke isn`t a joke after all. Pedal damper key string interaction pr lack thereof in part, has meant you devote yout energies in playing music, instead of wrestling an unwilling beast into a partial submission.

Because partial is all you get. The beast still snorts, and you call it character. Some pianos are wilder than others. It`s no coincidence Fazioli and others are examining ways of reducing resonances.

Just give things enough time, and you`ll have:

1 Acoustic pianos with an acclaimed pure tone
2 Digitals which have so much acoustic interaction that they`ll be the preferred choice for students who need the capability of playing on all sorts,and folk who long for the old days when cars had starting handles.

I think things are going pretty darned good as they are. But if those digital buttons become any smaller . . . . .!!


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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: JoeT] #2571495
09/15/16 07:43 AM
09/15/16 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT

Once you start using proper pedaling, a digital behaves nothing like an acoustic. Neither sound-wise nor touch-wise.

True in most cases but Roland showed in recent models that it can be done, and after few tweaks you certainly CAN learn and use proper pedaling on those pianos.

Re: Roland GP607 [Re: toddy] #2571496
09/15/16 07:43 AM
09/15/16 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
If a good digital piano can reasonably be expected to last 20 years without significant maintenance costs...

Not wanting to be argumentative, but be frank: How many of you have played a digital piano for 20 years without upgrading or maintenance? I know I haven't.

When I do the maths for my own kind of piano uses (digital and acoustic) the result is that digital and acoustic cost about the same (long term). At least that's what 35 years of experience tell me. As a matter of fact since I did indeed inherit a good upright, acoustics were a lot cheaper for me, all expenses included.

(I'm not counting my nice little grand though, the one luxury item I allowed myself over the years.)

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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: brooster] #2571497
09/15/16 07:57 AM
09/15/16 07:57 AM
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Maurus, your argument regarding cost in the long term makes sense. But standard DPs from Roland or Yamaha clavinova seem to have great durability. My own DP is only five years old, but I have a student who bought a CLP second hand, so it's about ten years old and has had regular use, and still as good as new. I'd expect both these to last at least another ten or fifteen years. Maybe I'm just an optimist.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: toddy] #2571500
09/15/16 08:06 AM
09/15/16 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Maurus, your argument regarding cost in the long term makes sense. But standard DPs from Roland or Yamaha clavinova seem to have great durability. My own DP is only five years old, but I have a student who bought a CLP second hand, so it's about ten years old and has had regular use, and still as good as new. I'd expect both these to last at least another ten or fifteen years. Maybe I'm just an optimist.

They can but since sound modeling and projection is still far from perfect you will want upgrades in time. When digital piano will reach point when you will get nearly perfect sound and action then you can use it 15 years without problems but for now they are not there yet, very close though.

Re: Roland GP607 [Re: brooster] #2571501
09/15/16 08:06 AM
09/15/16 08:06 AM
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Always good to be an optimist these days! smile

Re: Roland GP607 [Re: brooster] #2571503
09/15/16 08:10 AM
09/15/16 08:10 AM
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......of course, if people want to fart about with improvements here and add-ons there, that is entirely up to them (well, OK, us 😀) but many thousands of ordinary pianists and piano students don't give the technology a second thought: to them, it's just a piano. And it works as such, year in, year out.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: brooster] #2571504
09/15/16 08:11 AM
09/15/16 08:11 AM
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So....we're all in perfect harmony then 😂


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Roland GP607 [Re: Nordomus] #2571533
09/15/16 09:35 AM
09/15/16 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by JoeT

Once you start using proper pedaling, a digital behaves nothing like an acoustic. Neither sound-wise nor touch-wise.

True in most cases but Roland showed in recent models that it can be done, and after few tweaks you certainly CAN learn and use proper pedaling on those pianos.

With which "tweak" can you remove the damper weight from the keys using the pedal?


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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: toddy] #2571534
09/15/16 09:38 AM
09/15/16 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
......of course, if people want to fart about with improvements here and add-ons there, that is entirely up to them (well, OK, us 😀) but many thousands of ordinary pianists and piano students don't give the technology a second thought: to them, it's just a piano. And it works as such, year in, year out.


This is a very good observation. We can become quite obsessed with all manner of details about our instruments (I mean that in a general sense, not just pianos) and, over time, begin to put more emphasis on that than on playing. It can become a "slippery slope", unless that is what one consciously decides s/he wants to spend time on.

My V-Grand has all manner of little adjustments. I started playing around with those at one point, and found I WAS becoming obsessed with just this little tweak here and there. The sounds I was getting before tweaking were fine, but I just wanted to explore what all those adjustments were. The owner's manual has pages of this stuff, and it all looks so enticing. smile

My first instrument is the guitar - solo fingerstyle instrumental (sort of like classical guitar, but on a steel string instrument). I recently purchased a new guitar and decided to adjust the string height a bit. Simple enough - except that there is a point at which one can sand down the saddle a bit too much and the strings start buzzing against the frets. Luckily, I purchased some extra saddles, so I was able to take several experimental tries. I could easily see this becoming an obsession that could start getting more expansive as I could get into adjusting neck relief, string height at the nut, fret shaping or replacement, using different types of strings, etc. I finally decided on a comfortable compromise solution and am fine with that.

In a forum that is focused on the minute details of the instrument, such as how it plays, what type of sound "engine" a DP has, etc., we will necessarily become aware of, and focus on these things being discussed, simply by virtue of reading all those interesting posts. I suspect that for most instruments, there is at least one forum like that. The guitar certainly has its share.

At some point, we have to step back and make a conscious decision as to what we want our focus to be. I think toddy expressed how many people approach their instrument - accept it as it is and get on with playing music.

Tony


Last edited by TonyB; 09/15/16 09:40 AM.
Re: Roland GP607 [Re: peterws] #2571537
09/15/16 09:49 AM
09/15/16 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws
Maybe the joke isn`t a joke after all. Pedal damper key string interaction pr lack thereof in part, has meant you devote yout energies in playing music, instead of wrestling an unwilling beast into a partial submission.

Because partial is all you get. The beast still snorts, and you call it character. Some pianos are wilder than others. It`s no coincidence Fazioli and others are examining ways of reducing resonances.

But once you mastered that, you mastered the piano.

The Chinese-built entry-level upright or baby grand might not sound as pleasing as your standard digital and goes out of tune, but it behaves exactly like one expects from an acoustic piano built on same principle.

I think the main issue is, that our understanding of what physically happens inside a piano is still quite limited. That's the reason why modeling still sounds pretty artificial. There are a few bits still missing. Simplifications of the virtual piano action model itself while going nuts with physical action replica (AG) don't help either.


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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: JoeT] #2571541
09/15/16 10:01 AM
09/15/16 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
With which "tweak" can you remove the damper weight from the keys using the pedal?


You cannot do it with any tweak, though it would be technically possible to design this feature into a DP.

The point is, though, that the lightening of the keys when the damper is pressed is an accident of mechanical necessity. Does it have any musical logic what ever? Not really. So what's the point of it?


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: brooster] #2571544
09/15/16 10:15 AM
09/15/16 10:15 AM
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Greenwich, London, United King...
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OK. For about £1600 my Roland FP7-F and RPU-3 took me from zero to Grade 8. I didn't have a teacher while preparing for my exams post Grade 5 and didn't play an acoustic at all until one week before each exam when I booked space in a practice room. For my Grade 8 all three pieces required skillful use of the damper and soft pedals if a train wreck was not to occur. I achieved Distinctions for two pieces a merit and praise from the examiner for skillful pedaling. I must have learned something. I am now preparing for my Diploma (a long way off), exclusively on my new piano.

I now have an LX-17 and the pedaling is light years more accurate and responsive than my previous set-up. Apart from the behaviour modelling, the improvement in the pedal technology has been the biggest leap forward for Roland in the last five years.

When I first started to learn the piano in 2011, my aim was to purchase a DP to use as a practice instrument that would allow my skills to transfer to my teacher's upright. I considered it a substitute for the real thing. When I bought my piano last year, my only consideration was to find a piano that would allow me to play advanced classical music written for piano without limitation. Effectively, I am post-digital. Digital or not? Couldn't care less. Is this a great instrument, that is the question. My instrument is not a substitute. It is a piano. A great piano.

Would I have an acoustic piano? Perhaps. If I lived in a large detached house in the middle of nowhere and had £30,000+ for a >6ft 6" Grand Piano and a maintenance budget. Otherwise, no. For me, the combined advantages of a state of the art digital piano in 2016 leave even the better-than-average upright in the dust. For most people actually:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-15/piano-sales-plunge-in-united-states/6248428




Last edited by DazedAndConfused; 09/15/16 10:17 AM.
Re: Roland GP607 [Re: toddy] #2571545
09/15/16 10:15 AM
09/15/16 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by JoeT
With which "tweak" can you remove the damper weight from the keys using the pedal?


You cannot do it with any tweak, though it would be technically possible to design this feature into a DP.

Done, the silent/hybrid acoustic grand piano already has it. grin

Quote
The point is, though, that the lightening of the keys when the damper is pressed is an accident of mechanical necessity.

Who cares? It is how the piano works since centuries. There is technique required to deal with this and guess what? You can't practice that on digital piano. On top of that you have to deal with that additional weight put on the the fingers by the action of a digital.


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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: DazedAndConfused] #2571547
09/15/16 10:30 AM
09/15/16 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
Would I have an acoustic piano? Perhaps. If I lived in a large detached house in the middle of nowhere and had £30,000+ for a >6ft 6" Grand Piano and a maintenance budget. Otherwise, no. For me, the combined advantages of a state of the art digital piano in 2016 leave even the better-than-average upright in the dust. For most people actually:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-15/piano-sales-plunge-in-united-states/6248428

Lisa Millar's piece is inaccurate, because the average citizen's home piano was actually killed off by radio and TV decades ago already. That's not a new development and not the iPhone's fault as depicted in the article.

The actual reason is that acoustic pianos have become some sort of luxury item again and their steadily inflating prices have gone beyond most people's budgets. It's the same in Europe where the average European-built piano now costs at least five digits in Euros. Suddenly renowned German/French/British piano factories founded in the 1850s close left and right or get sold off to Pearl River. How could that happen?


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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: JoeT] #2571548
09/15/16 10:46 AM
09/15/16 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Suddenly renowned German/French/British piano factories founded in the 1850s close left and right or get sold off to Pearl River. How could that happen?


If you have the opportunity, talk to people in these companies who witnessed the changes or read their written accounts. Most of this had to do with changes in the way pianos are produced, and world-wide competition (i.e. the import of differently produced pianos into Europe).

A highly interesting account (for more than one reason) of how Yamaha pianos came to be imported to Europe can be found here (unfortunately, I know of no translation):

Christa Gießler: "Onderduiker" - Überleben in einem besetzten Land. Das Leben der Helge Domp. Aschendorff Verlag, 2006.

Re: Roland GP607 [Re: JoeT] #2571549
09/15/16 10:49 AM
09/15/16 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
Would I have an acoustic piano? Perhaps. If I lived in a large detached house in the middle of nowhere and had £30,000+ for a >6ft 6" Grand Piano and a maintenance budget. Otherwise, no. For me, the combined advantages of a state of the art digital piano in 2016 leave even the better-than-average upright in the dust. For most people actually:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-15/piano-sales-plunge-in-united-states/6248428

Lisa Millar's piece is inaccurate, because the average citizen's home piano was actually killed off by radio and TV decades ago already. That's not a new development and not the iPhone's fault as depicted in the article.

The actual reason is that acoustic pianos have become some sort of luxury item again and their steadily inflating prices have gone beyond most people's budgets. It's the same in Europe where the average European-built piano now costs at least five digits in Euros. Suddenly renowned German/French/British piano factories founded in the 1850s close left and right or get sold off to Pearl River. How could that happen?


I don't know if I agree with that aritcle. There's lot of evidence to the contrary.

There are so many more places to spend those several thousands of dollar than there used to be.

Family Vacation, New quad, snowmobile, motorbike, high end road or mountain bike, sea kayak, skis and snowboards, golf and etc etc etc...music making (unfortunately) is not the cultural centrepiece it used to be. It used to be that every family with the means to do so, put a piano in the living room and many hours were spent around it.

The decline of the piano started in the days when the transistor radio became the centrepiece of the family room, instead of the piano. I would liken the radio at that point in history, to the smartphone of today. Total Gamechanger. WW2 furthered the decline, but by then the slide was already happening. Add television to the mix, and even more of a decline. Now cheap air travel, gaming systems, and a myriad of entertainment options make bring the piano back to the forefront, an increasingly large challenge.

Technology can begin to address that challenge. My 9 year old nephew doesn't view an iPad as technology. That's how he does his learning, gaming, and even some of his socializing. Having that same iPad interact with his piano when he's practicing, makes it "cool". it keeps him engaged and learning.

Most people really don't know that they'd probably be better served with a quality digital piano than a low end, or clapped out acoustic.

Last edited by Jay Roland; 09/15/16 10:52 AM. Reason: clarity

Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: Roland GP607 [Re: JoeT] #2571550
09/15/16 10:50 AM
09/15/16 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT

Lisa Millar's piece is inaccurate, because the average citizen's home piano was actually killed off by radio and TV decades ago already.


Yes, I completely agree. The article is misleading. Actually, I feel that the nadir of the piano in the home was decades ago in the 70s and 80s. Now there may be a Renaissance of sorts as people begin to appreciate workmanship and lasting quality more and more.

In the 70s, there were piano smashing parties. That wouldn't happen now surely except with an already totally ruined instrument.

But, regardless of the article, what about dazed & confused's testimony of using digital pianos to get to such a high level? And now in preparation for a diploma exclusively using a Roland digital piano! (may the force be with him/her)



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Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: Roland GP607 [Re: JayGVan] #2571553
09/15/16 10:59 AM
09/15/16 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay Roland
Most people really don't know that they'd probably be better served with a quality digital piano than a low end, or clapped out acoustic.

With all due respect, Jay, while this statement is almost trivially true, it has to be balanced by a critical look at some of the marketing promises of digitals. When all comes together, there is a lot of misinformation around about the relative merits of both kinds of pianos - and of course both sides of the alternative do have their merits. The general marketing bias towards digital pianos in today's consumer world rests on a short term perspective that overemphasizes initial cost of ownership over long term expenses, and enjoyment (like in so many other domains of modern consumer culture).

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