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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: Frédéric L] #2567280
08/30/16 04:31 AM
08/30/16 04:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 11
V
Vince81 Offline
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Vince81  Offline
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V

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Vince81
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
A perfect zeugma or syllepsis.


The perfect hybrid has not born yet! Wood Soundboard + real piano action. Who will be first Kawai, Yamaha or... ?

By "a perfect zeugma", I mean a perfect use of a single term with two different meanings, both of them are involved in the sentence. With soundboard and real action criteria, we have the Transacoustic or ATX2-f pianos, but they are more in the Silent category.


Unfortunately there isn't a definition of hybrid piano yet and both companies claim that their top of the range are "hybrid" pianos. Indeed someone would say that without strings an action can never be claimed as real.


Kawai CS10
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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567300
08/30/16 07:04 AM
08/30/16 07:04 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 984
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member
36251  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 984
Casio is also using the word "hybrid," after teaming up with C. Bechstein to create new line of digital pianos but when you see the pictures of the action they look like Kawai, which is fine but still not as close as what Yamaha is selling. Just having a the keys made out of wood, IMO, does not constitute hybrid when rest of action is plastic and metal.

Yamaha AG is certainly not perfect but it's closer to an actual acoustic action then other companies selling pianos with the phrase "hybrid." The Grand Touch, Yamaha's first attempt used hammers, as well as rest of real action from their grands, although aspects that need strings, like dampers were obviously removed. R&D must of decided the hammers were not needed when they updated to the present model AGs.

If it wasn't for the AG series, I would still be playing an upright piano. The AG action, if you look, still uses lead weights and the action's DNA is from a real grand. When I practice I can imagine myself in a studio, playing a real acoustic grand with head phones on. I'm using the internal speakers but my point is, IMO, it's the next best thing if you can't own a real grand, granted VST's are much superior in sound. Yamaha makses up for this using a quad sampling technique and transferring each of the four microphones to a corresponding set of speakers that have individual amplification for clarity. Again, not as good as VSTs, but acceptable to my ears.

My dream would be for Yamaha to allow current AG owners to upgrade sample set and/or incorporate a combination of samples and newer modeling techniques. Of course they won't cause they're a business but if they do ever update the AG using latest techniques, I'll be happy to sell mine move on to a newer version unless I somehow find myself in a bigger house with loads of money, then I can just buy a Steinway B and keep my N2 in a different wing of my mansion. cool


AG N2 | CP4 | SSv3 | GK MK & MP
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: 36251] #2567337
08/30/16 10:27 AM
08/30/16 10:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 545
Germany
MRC Offline
500 Post Club Member
MRC  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 545
Germany
Originally Posted by 36251
My dream would be for Yamaha to allow current AG owners to upgrade sample set and/or incorporate a combination of samples and newer modeling techniques. Of course they won't cause they're a business

Of course they won't do it for free. But if they released a paid upgrade, they could make more money out of current AG owners who don't want to shell out thousands of bucks for a whole new instrument but would be happy to pay hundreds for an upgraded sound system.


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013)
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567384
08/30/16 02:13 PM
08/30/16 02:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 156
P
Pocomoto Offline
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Pocomoto  Offline
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P

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 156
The hardware of the current AGs is probably already stretched to the max, so a better sample set wouldn't be possible.

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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567396
08/30/16 02:53 PM
08/30/16 02:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 33
J
JohnnyReb Offline
Full Member
JohnnyReb  Offline
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J

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 33
Pocomoto - you are probably right - the memory, chip speed, etc. might be at its max but....they could sell a piano expander for this purpose. They would not only make AG owners happy but the rest of the digital world who could have a really viable quality hardware box to go with a controller (think Kawai VPC plus that...!). They could even make some sort of special mounting hardware for the AG as an add-on for it. As we know one of the major advantages to an all-in-one digital is the synergy between the sound set and the action as usually the sound set is tweaked for the specific action. So they could make the expander have "modes". You could put it into general mode for any keyboard, AG mode (or even N1,N2,N3 modes) or they could even make modes to work with other manufacturers (such as Kawai VPC mode). This would be just like the keyboard controllers in a way that do Midi mapping for different DAWs and plugins... I think it would be a huge huge seller....

Then they could sell new sample sets for the module - Bosendorfer, Steinway, Broadwood Forte Piano, Harpsichords...you name it. They could mix sampling with modeling to max out the best of both worlds. There is no one right now that has an ultra-awesome sounding piano module like that - market potential....

It is highly unrealistic to expect someone with a $15,000 digital to buy a new one...so they will lose a lot of that market when they eventually upgrade the AG but a $699-$1000 expander - very doable and it would be profitable because current AG owners would probably pay for that. As someone contemplating buying an AG that is very appealing. After all - how many people spend $15,000-$20,000 on a grand piano and then every 5-10 years later "upgrade" to a new model? Not too many....so 0$ in new sales for those companies. This gives Yamaha a vehicle to actually keep making money from current customers and a broad base of new customers just wanting better piano sounds for their current digital!

Just a thought..... smile have a blessed day!

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: JohnnyReb] #2567420
08/30/16 04:44 PM
08/30/16 04:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 984
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member
36251  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 984
Originally Posted by JohnnyReb
It is highly unrealistic to expect someone with a $15,000 digital to buy a new one...


FYI - I wouldn't of paid $15K for my N2 ever. I'm not going to reveal what I paid here, but I'll say, it was a good amount less than $10K. It was new but it was on dealer's floor for more than 6 months.

If I wanted one today, I'd definitely go used, as long as I knew its history and wasn't in some natural disaster.


AG N2 | CP4 | SSv3 | GK MK & MP
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: 36251] #2567428
08/30/16 05:05 PM
08/30/16 05:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 33
J
JohnnyReb Offline
Full Member
JohnnyReb  Offline
Full Member
J

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 33
I'm sorry...was quoting the normal street price for an N3. N2 can be had for $8500-$10K...still I don't think anyone wants to pay that and then in 5 years buy a new model. So my prior post idea I think would be appealing to many. If you have the great speaker system of the N2/N3 and the fantastic action...keeping it while upgrading the sound as technology in that area increases to me is a no-brainer. Not that the action couldn't be improved as a poster in one of the other threads mentioned. Putting a full 9 foot action in a new model eventually and possibly updating the sensor system to allow for even faster repetition would be incredible!

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