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Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 #2566790
08/28/16 11:27 AM
08/28/16 11:27 AM
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So, I am seriously considering an upper end DP. I know the technical differences among these three models in the subject line, but haven't been able to "test drive" the Kawai yet. As you know, the Avant Grand series are more expensive than the Kawai CS series. The top of the line C11 does seem (according to reviews and a few youtube clips) to have a very nice sound and the touch is reportedly excellent.

I have played the N1 and N2 and found them both (especially the N2) to be simply amazing in sound and feel. But the price is more than I had hoped to spend. I'm asking for opinions from those who either own or have seriously auditioned the new Kawai CS11 (or even 8) and can compare it with the Yamaha N1/N2 models. Online reviews that I have found really don't do a good job of this.

I am not a professional musician, but have years of amateur playing and would say I am better than average. I am, however, pretty adept at discerning and appreciating the touch and regulation qualities of a good piano, but am fine with accepting some small limitations of a DP in that regard. I do own a Steinway B, and the DP would be used in my small music studio for mostly my own enjoyment, and ability to layer tracks. I may also use it to duet with myself while playing my custom Walker theatre organ for both orchestral and popular music. I can't do that with my Steinway!

Thank you!

Doug


Anyone know about the 1920's "Mighty Wurlitzer" theatre pipe organs? Click here: www.wrtos.org or here: www.atos.org
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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2566828
08/28/16 01:14 PM
08/28/16 01:14 PM
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I'm afraid that no matter what other people say, it will come down to you going to test them, even if it means taking a little bit of a trip. Perhaps Kawai James can suggest a nearby Kawai dealer in your general area.

They are both great instruments, and I'm sure either one would make you happy, but who is to say which one would feel be just the right one for you? Obviously, you know what you like in a piano feel by now, so going to test them in person is really the best way to go about this.


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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: Morodiene] #2566868
08/28/16 03:20 PM
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Thanks - yes, I completely understand your point, and I do hope to do just that. However, I've noticed that at this point, over 6 dozen others have clicked on this thread which indicates to me there are many others who are interested in this comparison. Again - touch and tone comparisons are chiefly what I'm asking for. Anyone?

Doug


Anyone know about the 1920's "Mighty Wurlitzer" theatre pipe organs? Click here: www.wrtos.org or here: www.atos.org
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2566880
08/28/16 03:56 PM
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What Morodiene said is all there is to say in this particular comparison - to all who have to make it and are not limited by money alone.

Obviously there are a number functional differences but you can download the manuals on the web.


Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.
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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2566884
08/28/16 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NFexec
Thanks - yes, I completely understand your point, and I do hope to do just that. However, I've noticed that at this point, over 6 dozen others have clicked on this thread which indicates to me there are many others who are interested in this comparison. Again - touch and tone comparisons are chiefly what I'm asking for. Anyone?

Doug


There are search engines that "click" on links, so that's not much to go on for interest necessarily. But when you're at that price point, where action is so important, relying upon the opinion (and it really is just an opinion) of one person on the internet seems like a bit of a risk.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2566886
08/28/16 04:29 PM
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Hey Doug.
there has been many recent threads, coz I was looking at similar decision...why u have come down to these 3, I don't know. I guess u r concerned more with action...? If so, whilst I support u to try cs11...I have tried all three...I ended up buying cs11 for action and price point. I could have gone for n2, but felt the technology needed up dating, but noted the keyboard feel for the AG is upright, not grand feel. Kawai for me, provided the level of practice that would make transitioning to acoustic easier, as commented by many concert pianist/advanced. Do search on cs11, ca97 for many great threads on the GFII.


Dream came true : playing the piano
Kawai CS11/Yamaha Arius 161
lessons: 150 hours + counting
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: Pianoperformance] #2566894
08/28/16 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianoperformance
... but noted the keyboard feel for the AG is upright, not grand feel.

Hm. I see.



Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2566918
08/28/16 07:01 PM
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Do yourself a favor and check out the Rolands with 10 year parts and labor warranties.


Glenn Treibitz

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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: Morodiene] #2566922
08/28/16 07:20 PM
08/28/16 07:20 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Hello Doug,

Originally Posted by NFexec
So, I am seriously considering an upper end DP. I know the technical differences among these three models in the subject line, but haven't been able to "test drive" the Kawai yet.


May I recommend trying the Dealer Locator on the Kawai America website. I entered an Ohio zip code and found Solich Piano Columbus. Their website does list the CS11, however it does show the CA97, which utilises the same keyboard action and sound technology. The previous generation CS10 is also listed, providing a good approximation of how the CS11 will look (note that the CS11 features silver metal parts compared to the brass of the CS10).

In addition to the above dealer, and other dealers you find on the KawaiUS.com website, it may also be worth giving Kawai America a call directly to request assistance in finding a CS11 to play-test.

I hope this helps - best of luck with your search.

Kind regards,
James
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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: Pianoperformance] #2566923
08/28/16 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Pianoperformance
I could have gone for n2... but noted the keyboard feel for the AG is upright, not grand feel.


Please note that the NU1 utilises an action based on an upright piano action, however the N1, N2, and N3 utilise an action based on a grand piano action.

Kind regards,
James
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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2566930
08/28/16 08:03 PM
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Thanks James Kawai for the information...but the feel was more acoustic upright for me!


Dream came true : playing the piano
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lessons: 150 hours + counting
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2566951
08/28/16 11:14 PM
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I have a Yamaha AG N2 and like it a lot, but I noticed in your thread that you are interested in layering sounds. The N2 is not going to do this on its own. You can record and save it and then play on top of your recording, but that's about it unless you go midi out to computer. The N2 is limited in sounds, two piano, two electric pianos and one harpsichord.

When I was searching online, it seemed that the Kawai CS 11 had many more sounds and would allow you to layer. I may be wrong about that so hopefully others will comment as to whether I'm correct.

It is correct that the Yamaha N2 has a real, grand piano action, but you have that in your Steinway model B. I'm jealous!

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: OrgantoPiano] #2567016
08/29/16 09:20 AM
08/29/16 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by OrgantoPiano
I have a Yamaha AG N2 and like it a lot, but I noticed in your thread that you are interested in layering sounds. The N2 is not going to do this on its own. You can record and save it and then play on top of your recording, but that's about it unless you go midi out to computer. The N2 is limited in sounds, two piano, two electric pianos and one harpsichord.

When I was searching online, it seemed that the Kawai CS 11 had many more sounds and would allow you to layer. I may be wrong about that so hopefully others will comment as to whether I'm correct.

It is correct that the Yamaha N2 has a real, grand piano action, but you have that in your Steinway model B. I'm jealous!


You are able to layer 2 sounds and do split keyboard on the CS11, and there are 80 sounds to choose from.


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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567117
08/29/16 03:36 PM
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We are talking about the best Digital Hybrid piano can offer in the market.I have recently tried all those models and both the Kawai and he Yamaha action are great, sound is obviously different.
What I considered when I made my purchase is the price/quality ratio.
You can buy 1.5 CS11 for an N1 or 2 CS11 for an N2. When you think about this I would say that the Yamaha are not worth the extra money and I would never pay two three times the price of the Kawai as I cannot feel so much difference. This is my personal opinion.

Last edited by Vince81; 08/29/16 03:38 PM.

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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567122
08/29/16 03:55 PM
08/29/16 03:55 PM
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NFexec,

Considering that you have a great grand, and need the digital as backup instrument, I would just buy Kawai CA67. Same action and sound as CS11 for a bit more than half of the price of CS11. CS11 may also an overkill in small room. and CA67 is 1/3 of N1 approxiametely.

Do you really need a top end digital in that case? Maybe the features of CA67 will be enough for you, and you can spend rest of the money for other stuff of pleasures?

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: Vince81] #2567124
08/29/16 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Vince81
We are talking about the best Digital Hybrid piano can offer in the market.

My understanding is that Yamaha calls hybrid a DP with a real piano action, and Kawai, a DP with a soundboard. Then it seems me strange to use this term for both the CS11 and the N1, as it is used with 2 different meanings. A perfect zeugma or syllepsis.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: Frédéric L] #2567134
08/29/16 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Vince81
We are talking about the best Digital Hybrid piano can offer in the market.

My understanding is that Yamaha calls hybrid a DP with a real piano action, and Kawai, a DP with a soundboard. Then it seems me strange to use this term for both the CS11 and the N1, as it is used with 2 different meanings. A perfect zeugma or syllepsis.


The perfect hybrid has not born yet! Wood Soundboard + real piano action. Who will be first Kawai, Yamaha or... ?


Kawai CS10
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567163
08/29/16 06:02 PM
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sounds like Kawai cs is close to that combo of wooden sound board and real keyboard action ..


Dream came true : playing the piano
Kawai CS11/Yamaha Arius 161
lessons: 150 hours + counting
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567251
08/29/16 11:12 PM
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Both the Kawai and the Yamaha N2 and N3 mount their base speakers into a wooden soundboard. The Yamaha uses the keyboard action from their G series acoustic grand piano. The Kawai uses a modified grand piano action that is not from an acoustic piano.

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: Vince81] #2567271
08/30/16 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Vince81
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
A perfect zeugma or syllepsis.


The perfect hybrid has not born yet! Wood Soundboard + real piano action. Who will be first Kawai, Yamaha or... ?

By "a perfect zeugma", I mean a perfect use of a single term with two different meanings, both of them are involved in the sentence. With soundboard and real action criteria, we have the Transacoustic or ATX2-f pianos, but they are more in the Silent category.


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Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: Frédéric L] #2567280
08/30/16 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Vince81
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
A perfect zeugma or syllepsis.


The perfect hybrid has not born yet! Wood Soundboard + real piano action. Who will be first Kawai, Yamaha or... ?

By "a perfect zeugma", I mean a perfect use of a single term with two different meanings, both of them are involved in the sentence. With soundboard and real action criteria, we have the Transacoustic or ATX2-f pianos, but they are more in the Silent category.


Unfortunately there isn't a definition of hybrid piano yet and both companies claim that their top of the range are "hybrid" pianos. Indeed someone would say that without strings an action can never be claimed as real.


Kawai CS10
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567300
08/30/16 07:04 AM
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Casio is also using the word "hybrid," after teaming up with C. Bechstein to create new line of digital pianos but when you see the pictures of the action they look like Kawai, which is fine but still not as close as what Yamaha is selling. Just having a the keys made out of wood, IMO, does not constitute hybrid when rest of action is plastic and metal.

Yamaha AG is certainly not perfect but it's closer to an actual acoustic action then other companies selling pianos with the phrase "hybrid." The Grand Touch, Yamaha's first attempt used hammers, as well as rest of real action from their grands, although aspects that need strings, like dampers were obviously removed. R&D must of decided the hammers were not needed when they updated to the present model AGs.

If it wasn't for the AG series, I would still be playing an upright piano. The AG action, if you look, still uses lead weights and the action's DNA is from a real grand. When I practice I can imagine myself in a studio, playing a real acoustic grand with head phones on. I'm using the internal speakers but my point is, IMO, it's the next best thing if you can't own a real grand, granted VST's are much superior in sound. Yamaha makses up for this using a quad sampling technique and transferring each of the four microphones to a corresponding set of speakers that have individual amplification for clarity. Again, not as good as VSTs, but acceptable to my ears.

My dream would be for Yamaha to allow current AG owners to upgrade sample set and/or incorporate a combination of samples and newer modeling techniques. Of course they won't cause they're a business but if they do ever update the AG using latest techniques, I'll be happy to sell mine move on to a newer version unless I somehow find myself in a bigger house with loads of money, then I can just buy a Steinway B and keep my N2 in a different wing of my mansion. cool


AG N2 | CP4 | SSv3 | GK MK & MP
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: 36251] #2567337
08/30/16 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 36251
My dream would be for Yamaha to allow current AG owners to upgrade sample set and/or incorporate a combination of samples and newer modeling techniques. Of course they won't cause they're a business

Of course they won't do it for free. But if they released a paid upgrade, they could make more money out of current AG owners who don't want to shell out thousands of bucks for a whole new instrument but would be happy to pay hundreds for an upgraded sound system.


Steinway A grand (1919), Richard Lipp grand (1913), Yamaha P2 upright (1983), Casio PX-150 digital (2013)
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567384
08/30/16 02:13 PM
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The hardware of the current AGs is probably already stretched to the max, so a better sample set wouldn't be possible.

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: NFexec] #2567396
08/30/16 02:53 PM
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Pocomoto - you are probably right - the memory, chip speed, etc. might be at its max but....they could sell a piano expander for this purpose. They would not only make AG owners happy but the rest of the digital world who could have a really viable quality hardware box to go with a controller (think Kawai VPC plus that...!). They could even make some sort of special mounting hardware for the AG as an add-on for it. As we know one of the major advantages to an all-in-one digital is the synergy between the sound set and the action as usually the sound set is tweaked for the specific action. So they could make the expander have "modes". You could put it into general mode for any keyboard, AG mode (or even N1,N2,N3 modes) or they could even make modes to work with other manufacturers (such as Kawai VPC mode). This would be just like the keyboard controllers in a way that do Midi mapping for different DAWs and plugins... I think it would be a huge huge seller....

Then they could sell new sample sets for the module - Bosendorfer, Steinway, Broadwood Forte Piano, Harpsichords...you name it. They could mix sampling with modeling to max out the best of both worlds. There is no one right now that has an ultra-awesome sounding piano module like that - market potential....

It is highly unrealistic to expect someone with a $15,000 digital to buy a new one...so they will lose a lot of that market when they eventually upgrade the AG but a $699-$1000 expander - very doable and it would be profitable because current AG owners would probably pay for that. As someone contemplating buying an AG that is very appealing. After all - how many people spend $15,000-$20,000 on a grand piano and then every 5-10 years later "upgrade" to a new model? Not too many....so 0$ in new sales for those companies. This gives Yamaha a vehicle to actually keep making money from current customers and a broad base of new customers just wanting better piano sounds for their current digital!

Just a thought..... smile have a blessed day!

Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: JohnnyReb] #2567420
08/30/16 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnnyReb
It is highly unrealistic to expect someone with a $15,000 digital to buy a new one...


FYI - I wouldn't of paid $15K for my N2 ever. I'm not going to reveal what I paid here, but I'll say, it was a good amount less than $10K. It was new but it was on dealer's floor for more than 6 months.

If I wanted one today, I'd definitely go used, as long as I knew its history and wasn't in some natural disaster.


AG N2 | CP4 | SSv3 | GK MK & MP
Re: Kawai CS11 vs Yamaha N1 or N2 [Re: 36251] #2567428
08/30/16 05:05 PM
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I'm sorry...was quoting the normal street price for an N3. N2 can be had for $8500-$10K...still I don't think anyone wants to pay that and then in 5 years buy a new model. So my prior post idea I think would be appealing to many. If you have the great speaker system of the N2/N3 and the fantastic action...keeping it while upgrading the sound as technology in that area increases to me is a no-brainer. Not that the action couldn't be improved as a poster in one of the other threads mentioned. Putting a full 9 foot action in a new model eventually and possibly updating the sensor system to allow for even faster repetition would be incredible!


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