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Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2565096
08/22/16 05:40 PM
08/22/16 05:40 PM
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Logan Avery Offline OP
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Bass Cadet, my main problem with buying a lower-quality piano is this: I also play the cello, and I own a very nice good quality cello as well. Nowhere near the price of a piano, but still. As a cellist I have no problem with the idea of buying a cello, and then selling it, and upgrading frequently. Every few years or so. I've upgraded about 2 times since I started playing as a small child. Since a cello holds it's value, that's easy to do but when you're talking a $25,000 instrument that loses value, the more you upgrade, the way I see it it's just the more money you spend in the long run. Which brings me back to wanting a quality instrument. My deal with a piano is that if I buy the right piano now, I can easily play it until I am, say 50. I mean a piano is an instrument that, if well-maintained will last easily half a lifetime. And maybe when I'm in my 40's, I can upgrade when I can afford to lose the money. Or heck! Just own multiple grands! lol. I mean my piano teacher bought her 9' Baldwin concert grand new in 1988 I think she said, and it's still in beautiful condition in her living room. It's a quality instrument to her that she was able to learn and grow on which is what I'm looking for.

Peter, thanks for the very kind reply, I did tell Jim to just give me a call when he gets in something he thinks I'd like and so far he's called me with a yamaha C5 and a C6. Or a C6 and C7... I can't remember. One of the two combinations... But if memory serves, the list price on one is 22k and the other is 23, so I gave him the speech of shame, you know "they sound wonderful but they're a little out of my price range right now... but I'm saving up" . So this brings me back around to the steinway. I could've had that old, but still very nice model B for the same price as those Yamahas. Granted the Yamahas are a little bit newer. Jim also regularly gets in B's in excellent - in fact beyond excellent - condition made in around the same year for around 30,000 (which is dreaming at this point, I'd have to save up what, 15-ish-k?) but I guess my point is, for not that much more, I get an instrument that is in my eyes and hands much higher quality. So that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is this: The yamaha IS a quality instrument that I can learn and grow on. AND it's cheaper. So for the sake of money, I may wind up going that route, so now for me it's a question of: Is a steinway worth 7 (ish) thousand more? Or is an older steinway worth the same price of a newer Yamaha? Now we're not just comparing apples to apples, now it's taking many different factors into comparison. Which is where things seem to get hairy. And all these problems come back to my budget. Man this whole piano buying thing is harder than I thought...

That was my question that I forgot last night. newer yamaha vs older steinway for same price and new yamaha vs new steinway price gap.

and as far as configurations go... and Upright is not going to happen. I know they're cheap, and I know it's in my price range but I despise uprights. Couldn't really tell ya why in full detail, I hate them with a passion. I did at one point in time consider the N line (N1 N2 etc.) and it seems like for the price of one of those, I could just have a grand, no?

Spinets are even worse than uprights imho... So a Grand it is!

anyhoo, I'm actually writing this between classes here at the community college and my next class is on the other side of campus in 10 minutes so I guess I gotta skedaddle. I didn't proofread or anything, I just kinda typed and went so I apologize for any continuity errors in my thoughts expressed here. Thanks guys!

-Logan

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Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2565178
08/23/16 12:25 AM
08/23/16 12:25 AM
Joined: Aug 2016
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OrgantoPiano Offline
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Hi Logan. I can understand your dislike for uprights. I don't like them either though I play one every week at my church. When I was a kid, my aunt had an old upright. It never played in tune and I just assumed all uprights sounded like that and it was nothing I wanted to play. As a result, I played organ instead.

I got my degree in organ performance and spent my life working as a church music director. Now that I'm mostly retired, I've had the desire to catch up on my piano literature. I've always wanted to play some of the big, Romantic composers, so that's what I've been doing. I've had electric keyboards for the last 30 years, but I realized if I was going to get serious about playing piano, I needed to upgrade from my old Korg T-1. I would have liked to have bought a 6 or 7 foot grand, but I had neither the room nor the money, so I bought a Yamaha Avant Grand, N2, something I'm very happy with.

So on your topic, owning a Steinway grand would be an incredible thing to do. I totally get that. But years ago, my church bought a 6 foot Yamaha grand, and I found it wonderful to play. So my suggestion is that if a Yamaha grand is more affordable for you, I would give it some consideration. They have that wonderful "grand" sound unlike any upright, and they have the grand piano action, something I love in my N2. It really makes a difference when you're playing a series of octaves like the Chopin "Nocturne In B flat minor", or something like Sibelius's, "Romance", with that octave run.

And since I mentioned "Romance", I learned while looking for a digital piano, the act of shopping for a great sounding piano can be the most exciting part, just like the pursuit in a romantic relationship, even more than the consummation!

Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2565187
08/23/16 01:34 AM
08/23/16 01:34 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
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Logan Avery Offline OP
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I have played the N2. If memory serves it's got a concert grand action? I Love them... but $15,000? They're great keyboards don't get me wrong I really do like them. But $15,000 for an electric keyboard? I mean, that is perfectly in my price range and now that you bring it up, it is definitely something I'll have to be thinking about. 'Put it on the back burner' so to speak. But I just simply have a hard time justifying 15,000 for a keyboard. I wonder if Jim down at piano gallery would sell me a used one or an old display model for a good price though...

Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2565218
08/23/16 05:24 AM
08/23/16 05:24 AM
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joe80 Offline
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Logan. I think you've decided you want the Steinway!

Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2565355
08/23/16 03:11 PM
08/23/16 03:11 PM
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wouter79 Offline
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A piano is an investment in yourself, but not a financial investment.

The N2 is a Yamaha and sounds completely different from a Steinway. And particular older 2nd hand Steinways feel very different than an N2 as well.

So you are not sure what kind of sound and action you want.

I suggest you visit some more dealers, including 2nd hand, and really test them till you are really sure what you want.


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Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2565417
08/23/16 05:45 PM
08/23/16 05:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,404
Urbandale, Iowa
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Steve Chandler Offline
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Logan, Steinways are fine pianos, but so are many others. Admittedly any top tier piano is beyond your current means. Heck a new Yamaha or Kawai is beyond your current means if you go for their standard line (CX or GX series). Many people come on this forum with stars in their eyes over Steinways. Having played Steingraeber, Bechstien, Bosendorfer, and Bluthner I can tell you there are better pianos than a Steinway (or at least as good, but different). Have you considered anything beyond Steinway and Yamaha?

Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2565697
08/24/16 02:40 PM
08/24/16 02:40 PM
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Posts: 618
Columbus, GA
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S. Phillips Offline
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Columbus, GA
Logan, Used B's are probably the most sought after piano. If you like the sound and have it checked out by a good concert tech it is probably a good deal. Sometimes a piano that does not play well can just be regulated and voiced so that would not be a huge after market expense for you.

However, watch for signs that the rebuild might not have been done properly. If the piano is out of tune please ask the dealer to have a good tuner go over it. If the stringing was done properly it should be easy to tune very accurately. Have the technician take a look at the plate, tuning pin angle, pin block fit and quality of the coils and pin torque. New strings have no value if they aren't installed correctly.



Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Steinway & Sons Pianos
Columbus, GA
New Steinway, Boston and Essex pianos
www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2565937
08/25/16 10:59 AM
08/25/16 10:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 877
Hillsborough, NC
Toddler2 Offline
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Hi Logan,

My comments on cars and pianos were based on a college student who said they were "very stressed" about assuming a large debt. Not a doc who could pay for an M3 without taking on debt.

If you choose to spend as much on a piano as you can afford, I think that's fine.

And just to put your mind at ease, I'm not insulted at all by you saying I'd buy a Ford. I have nothing against Ford, in point of fact, I drive a 12 year old Chevy Trail Blazer that I'm going to donate to NPR soon. In contrast to that, I bought my 15 year old daughter a Volvo XC60 with all sorts of luxury features because the top trim level of the newest models also had all their extra safety features. My next purchase may be another XC60 because my son will get his license in a year, but I'm not stuck on Volvo. I just require my kids cars be an IIHS top safety pick with the extra "+" features. We all have things that are valuable to us and worth paying for or even going into debt for. In the same way, I don't think you should get stuck on Steinways.

My problems with LJC's posts are not that he loves Steinways. It's that all he he seems to do is encourage people to buy Steinway pianos and often makes specious arguments about why you should buy them from Steinway. If all you wanted in response to your posts was a cheerleader for Steinway, LJC is your guy. Of course you could go to a Steinway store for that.

You came to a piano forum instead, and your subject line and first post said you wanted to know if a "Steinway" was a good investment, not if a nice piano is a good investment. You also stated that you are "very stressed" about financing that much. I'm just respecting that you're not enthusiastic about taking on a lot of debt when there may be better alternatives.

Good luck!
Todd


M&H AA (2006)
Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2566014
08/25/16 03:40 PM
08/25/16 03:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 623
Portland, OR
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twocats Offline
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Portland, OR
Originally Posted by Logan Avery
Like I said I naturally want the nicest piano I can afford.

Hi Logan! I read through your posts and what is screaming through my head is "but you can't afford the S&S!". You had said that the debt would stress you, and this kind of thing can end up being a heavy emotional burden. What if your living situation or job situation or health changes and you cannot afford the piano anymore, and you have to sell it at a big loss? What if your neighbors complain when you go to apartment living? There are so many unknowns that can happen.

Also, you're young and your priorities will very likely change in the future, and I think you'll really set yourself back by spending so much now. Read up on compounding and how starting a retirement fund as early as possible can make you quite wealthy down the line. If you finish school and get your finances to a stable state, where you don't have incur a stressful amount of debt for your piano and also have a buffer to deal with any emergency situations (it's generally recommended to have 6 months of living expenses for this), and getting your dream piano is still your priority, by all means go for it then! But now is not the right time for you.

Regarding going to piano stores, I'd just say that eventually I'll be in the market for a very nice piano, and then as long as you're not bothering any other customers, play as much as you'd like.

Good luck! It's admirable that you've saved up $10k as a student and I'm sure you'll be be able to save up for your dream piano in the future smile



2001 Petrof 125 -> 2002 Petrof IV -> 1999 Bosendorfer 225 (meow!) 🐱
Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2566093
08/25/16 10:44 PM
08/25/16 10:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,586
New York
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LJC Offline
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New York
Toddler likes to impugn anyone he doesn't agree with. I would be a cheerleader for whatever piano someone wants, Toddler. Toddler likes to put words in peoples mouths. Toddler obviously has something against Steinway sales people but he can't possibly know all of them.

Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: LJC] #2567026
08/29/16 11:20 AM
08/29/16 11:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 877
Hillsborough, NC
Toddler2 Offline
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Originally Posted by LJC
Toddler likes to impugn anyone he doesn't agree with. I would be a cheerleader for whatever piano someone wants, Toddler. Toddler likes to put words in peoples mouths. Toddler obviously has something against Steinway sales people but he can't possibly know all of them.


I'm sorry I insulted you LJC. I didn't know you actually were a Steinway salesperson until you posted that, but you obviously sound like one. Also, I don't have anything against you or "all Steinway sales people", but I was annoyed by your posting the standard Steinway sales pitches here given Logan's situation, but putting that detail in your signature line might have stopped me from being annoyed. I think it's actually required by PianoWorld's rules, but again, my annoyance shouldn't have lead to insults, so apologies again if I insulted you or your colleagues.
I would point out that members can click our usernames and read all our post if they want to see our prior suggestions to people asking about pianos on this website... .

Hope we're good now and can just let other people offer their thoughts to Logan. He obviously knows what you and I think.
Todd


M&H AA (2006)
Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2567133
08/29/16 05:25 PM
08/29/16 05:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
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Logan Avery Offline OP
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There's a Samick in my area I might check out, it's at a pretty good price... Thoughts on the Samick? I don't think I have played one yet.

Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2567141
08/29/16 05:51 PM
08/29/16 05:51 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,295
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by Logan Avery
There's a Samick in my area I might check out, it's at a pretty good price... Thoughts on the Samick? I don't think I have played one yet.


I would think, based on this statement from the "Piano Buyer" [Many of Samick’s Indonesian pianos are priced similarly to low-cost pianos from China.], that the Samick is just about as far from Steinway as you can get.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2567170
08/29/16 07:37 PM
08/29/16 07:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
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Miguel Rey Offline
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Originally Posted by Logan Avery
There's a Samick in my area I might check out, it's at a pretty good price... Thoughts on the Samick? I don't think I have played one yet.



wow
After such a spirited debate !





Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2567172
08/29/16 07:46 PM
08/29/16 07:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 957
Miguel Rey Offline
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Originally Posted by Logan Avery
There's a Samick in my area I might check out, it's at a pretty good price... Thoughts on the Samick? I don't think I have played one yet.


My guess is you should have been looking for a piano in this tier from the very beginning. Try it out and let's us know how you like it and curious to see the price difference




Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2567244
08/29/16 11:54 PM
08/29/16 11:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,072
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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I have had success in doing some light rebuilding/redesign of Samick grands. Some of the scales have pretty good bones. The actions usually need complete repining and the hammers are too heavy and hard so I replace them.

I have never seen a Young Chang that I could do the same work on and get a good result. They use hard metal in the castings, (plate) and the wood working is too crude. Same can be said for all the Chinese grands I have seen. (I haven't seen them all so this is not to be taken as a blanket condemnation.) As well all the Yamahas I have seen have hard metal castings. Kawais don't seem to have this problem but I test for the problem in every piano I am tasked with evaluating, rather than depend on the past observations.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2567274
08/30/16 04:57 AM
08/30/16 04:57 AM
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joe80 Offline
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Certainly I'd agree with Ed McMorrow in that most of the Samick grand pianos I have played have been much nicer than most of the Young Chang grands I have played. Now, I haven't played a Young Chang made after 1995 because they seemed to stop importing them here for some reason. Anyway, a Samick can be a decent piano at a fairly low price and might be a good stop-gap until you can really afford to take on the debt of an expensive grand.

Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2567282
08/30/16 05:53 AM
08/30/16 05:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,987
London
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David-G Offline
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Ed - I am curious, could you elaborate? What is "hard metal", and what is wrong with it?

Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Logan Avery] #2567288
08/30/16 06:27 AM
08/30/16 06:27 AM
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joe80 Offline
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Iron Maiden, Metallica, that kind of thing.

Soft metal might be Aerosmith and perhaps White Snake, and some early Queen stuff, although they're more like Hard Rock

Re: Steinway 1st piano-good investment? [Re: Toddler2] #2567371
08/30/16 02:22 PM
08/30/16 02:22 PM
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Posts: 3,404
Urbandale, Iowa
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Steve Chandler Offline
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Originally Posted by Toddler2

I'm sorry I insulted you LJC. I didn't know you actually were a Steinway salesperson until you posted that, but you obviously sound like one. Also, I don't have anything against you or "all Steinway sales people", but I was annoyed by your posting the standard Steinway sales pitches here given Logan's situation, but putting that detail in your signature line might have stopped me from being annoyed. I think it's actually required by PianoWorld's rules, but again, my annoyance shouldn't have lead to insults, so apologies again if I insulted you or your colleagues.

Good on you to apologize, but you're right piano professionals should identify themselves in their signatures. Here's what Frank has to say on the subject and it's a sticky so you can't say you didn't see it.
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb..._Industry_Pros_-_READ_THI.html#Post24766

If LJC is indeed a Steinway salesperson then he (or she) is not following PianoWorld rules and is risking banishment.

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