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roland lx17 ringing sounds #2566701
08/28/16 02:12 AM
08/28/16 02:12 AM
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nelce Offline OP
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hey guys, for those of you who have a roland lx-17, i'm wondering if you guys are having a problem with certain notes (mainly in the middle range) having a high pitch ring to the end of it. i've attached a sample here of the E above middle C. i'm speaking of the high pitch at the tail end of the note.

https://ln.sync.com/dl/261bc1810#cafnskt8-4c9rpbp8-jcshnv99-xwftjppt

i'm not sure if my piano is having issues, if that's the way it's always sounded and i just never noticed, or if that's how even a real piano is supposed to sound, but these higher pitch frequencies are starting to jump out when i'm playing and it's becoming very distracting.

i would appreciate any input on this! thanks!

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Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2566730
08/28/16 05:30 AM
08/28/16 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by nelce
hey guys, for those of you who have a roland lx-17, i'm wondering if you guys are having a problem with certain notes (mainly in the middle range) having a high pitch ring to the end of it. i've attached a sample here of the E above middle C. i'm speaking of the high pitch at the tail end of the note.

https://ln.sync.com/dl/261bc1810#cafnskt8-4c9rpbp8-jcshnv99-xwftjppt

i'm not sure if my piano is having issues, if that's the way it's always sounded and i just never noticed, or if that's how even a real piano is supposed to sound, but these higher pitch frequencies are starting to jump out when i'm playing and it's becoming very distracting.

i would appreciate any input on this! thanks!

Yeah, I heard it as well on my HP 605. I'm not liking it very much but it seems like "natural" string/soundboard vibration. There are few other characteristics of this sound engine I don't really like but advantages and overall sound eclipse them all smile

Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2566732
08/28/16 05:43 AM
08/28/16 05:43 AM
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This could be the effect of the duplex which are auxiliary, freely vibrating strings that enrich the sound of the main strings through sympathetic resonance. You can regulate the effect in Piano Designer (or whatever it is called these days). It should be called something like 'duplex setting'. I think you can also regulate related parameters like 'string resonance'.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2566733
08/28/16 05:50 AM
08/28/16 05:50 AM
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Interesting article from wiki:

Tunable duplex scaling

Both Fazioli and Mason and Hamlin (of Haverhill, Massachusetts) employ tunable duplex scaling. The idea behind duplex scaling, invented by Theodore Steinway in 1872, is that the non-speaking portion of the string, located between the non-speaking bridge pin and the hitch pin (formerly considered the "waste end" and damped with a strip of cloth), resounds in sympathy with the vibrating portion of the string. Steinway & Sons' earliest employment of the duplex scale made use of aliquots, individually positionable (hence tunable) contact points, where each note of the duplex scale bears a perfect harmonic, intervallic relationship to its speaking length, i.e., an octave or fifth whether doubled or tripled. Because it was time-consuming to correctly position each aliquot, Steinway abandoned individual aliquots for continuous cast metal bars, each comprising an entire section of duplex bridge points. Their feeling was that with an accurately templated bridge and carefully located duplex bar, the same result would be achieved with far less fuss.

Mason & Hamlin, however, embraced Theodore Steinway's original idea. They felt that the tuning of these short stretches of free string can be achieved with greater accuracy than can be attained with a duplex bar. With the fixed points of a duplex bar, small variations in casting are liable to produce imperfections in the duplex string lengths. Furthermore, since variations in humidity can cause duplex scales to move in pitch more rapidly than the speaking scale, manual readjustment of the string tension on the non-speaking side of the bridge, and/or a readjustment of the duplex position to better accommodate humidity fluctuation, is feasible with individual aliquots.

More recently, Fazioli has modified Theodore Steinway's original idea by creating a stainless-steel track, fixed to the cast iron plate, on which aliquots slide. This system improves the ease with which aliquots can be adjusted, both during manufacture and during subsequent service.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

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Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: toddy] #2566736
08/28/16 06:03 AM
08/28/16 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
This could be the effect of the duplex which are auxiliary, freely vibrating strings that enrich the sound of the main strings through sympathetic resonance. You can regulate the effect in Piano Designer (or whatever it is called these days). It should be called something like 'duplex setting'. I think you can also regulate related parameters like 'string resonance'.

Nope, this is the first thing I've tried.

Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: Nordomus] #2566738
08/28/16 06:42 AM
08/28/16 06:42 AM
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by toddy
This could be the effect of the duplex which are auxiliary, freely vibrating strings that enrich the sound of the main strings through sympathetic resonance. You can regulate the effect in Piano Designer (or whatever it is called these days). It should be called something like 'duplex setting'. I think you can also regulate related parameters like 'string resonance'.

Nope, this is the first thing I've tried.


Then, can you change the overtone intensity in Piano Designer? Perhaps it's that. It is surely some kind of harmonic resonance. The question is, can you control it?

But as you said, it sounds natural. It is what you get in acoustic piano, anyway, albeit somewhat tamed down.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2566739
08/28/16 06:51 AM
08/28/16 06:51 AM
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Greenwich, London, United King...
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First of all, I wouldn't get too hung up about the sound of any individual note on a piano. Unless you are playing a piece with lots of naked Es above middle C, surely the thing that matters is the overall effect of fundamental notes and resonances on the piece as a whole. Those "imperfections" are what gives an instrument character. In effect, what I am saying is that this is only a problem if these overtones are spoiling the music that you play.

If that is the case, if you like the overall sound but not those overtones, you should think about changing Single Note Character using the Piano Designer app. SNC acts like an individual EQ for each note, lower settings produce a duller note, higher settings a brighter note.

If that doesn't work, consider changing the Soundboard Type. I am going out on a limb and suggesting that your recorded sound use Soundboard Type 1. That is my least favourite of the 5 available, it seems to adds a Celeste quality to the two octaves above middle C which is not at all to my taste.

If you don't have it already, it is worth downloading the Piano Designer app as it contains extra sounds as well as providing a user friendly way to tune the sound to your taste.

Good luck.

Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: DazedAndConfused] #2566756
08/28/16 08:49 AM
08/28/16 08:49 AM
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nelce Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DazedAndConfused
First of all, I wouldn't get too hung up about the sound of any individual note on a piano. Unless you are playing a piece with lots of naked Es above middle C, surely the thing that matters is the overall effect of fundamental notes and resonances on the piece as a whole. Those "imperfections" are what gives an instrument character. In effect, what I am saying is that this is only a problem if these overtones are spoiling the music that you play.

If that is the case, if you like the overall sound but not those overtones, you should think about changing Single Note Character using the Piano Designer app. SNC acts like an individual EQ for each note, lower settings produce a duller note, higher settings a brighter note.

If that doesn't work, consider changing the Soundboard Type. I am going out on a limb and suggesting that your recorded sound use Soundboard Type 1. That is my least favourite of the 5 available, it seems to adds a Celeste quality to the two octaves above middle C which is not at all to my taste.


Thanks to everyone who responded. I appreciate it!

Toddy: I will try playing around with the duplex and string resonance settings to see if it makes a difference.

Dazed: it's not just one note that does this. This seems to be the one that rings this way the most so I used it as an example, but as I was playing last night, there was a lot of ringing going on that I never noticed before and it just became bothersome. I also tried the various soundboards. 3 and 5 seem to be many people's favorites. But they sound too metallic and bright for my ears, and the low notes sound a bit too boomy. Which soundboard is your favorite?

Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2566758
08/28/16 09:02 AM
08/28/16 09:02 AM
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nelce Offline OP
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Just wanted to report back: just like Nordomus said, adjusting duplex scale and string resonance didn't correct the issue, but adjusting Single Key Character did! Bumping the value of E4 to -1 completely eliminated that higher pitch noise at the tail end! Dazed - thanks so much for that! smile

Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2566800
08/28/16 11:49 AM
08/28/16 11:49 AM
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Charles Cohen Online content
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I've had the same thing happen with Pianoteq. One overtone -- sometimes a pleasant harmonic, sometimes not -- just seems to keep ringing longer that the others.

If you try an acoustic piano, note-by-note, you'll hear similar effects.

So I assume the ringing is produced by the Pianoteq's modelling software -- and that the software is doing a good job.

I also suppose that, if you were _sampling_ an acoustic piano, for use in a "sample-player" DP, you'd be tempted to "tame" such resonances after recording, before putting the samples into the target DP.

. . . That would give you the perfectly consistent, "lifeless" tone quality that
. . . some of us complain about.

It's in the category of "Be careful what you wish for" side-effects.



. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2566852
08/28/16 02:26 PM
08/28/16 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by nelce
hey guys, for those of you who have a roland lx-17, i'm wondering if you guys are having a problem with certain notes (mainly in the middle range) having a high pitch ring to the end of it. i've attached a sample here of the E above middle C. i'm speaking of the high pitch at the tail end of the note.

https://ln.sync.com/dl/261bc1810#cafnskt8-4c9rpbp8-jcshnv99-xwftjppt

i'm not sure if my piano is having issues, if that's the way it's always sounded and i just never noticed, or if that's how even a real piano is supposed to sound, but these higher pitch frequencies are starting to jump out when i'm playing and it's becoming very distracting.


If you want a real-sounding digital piano - overtones and all -, you got it there. That's what an acoustic piano gives you.

The louder you play, the greater the proportion of those "nasty" overtones to the fundamentals. They provide the tonal brilliance you expect (or should expect) when you play louder.

Electronic sounds (synth etc) can give you pure tones - just the fundamentals, and nothing but. No mechanical instrument does.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2566980
08/29/16 05:26 AM
08/29/16 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by nelce
Just wanted to report back: just like Nordomus said, adjusting duplex scale and string resonance didn't correct the issue, but adjusting Single Key Character did! Bumping the value of E4 to -1 completely eliminated that higher pitch noise at the tail end! Dazed - thanks so much for that! smile


Great, I am glad that worked for you. I use all the Soundboard Types, except 1, depending on what I am playing but I find 3 to be the most versatile.

Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2566983
08/29/16 06:24 AM
08/29/16 06:24 AM
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This is a great post topic since I posted something similar awhile ago with notes near/after C4. Nothing you change within the settings really makes the quarks go away, but I found once you become more proficient with a piece it becomes less notable. While my wife, in the other room, does not notice the sound; it's only as players we are close to it and can hear it, if it all.

I would say the software technology is great, but I don't think any of here meant to put down the type of cash and get these results. If we wanted real acoustic sound, we would buy a REAL acoustic piano, no? Also, why with professional recordings are those flaws unheard if indeed they are occurrences with "REAL" pianos? ---- Although since they are being played professionally, then the sounds melds enough where they are just not detected.

Interesting.

Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: Cinjero] #2566987
08/29/16 06:46 AM
08/29/16 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Cinjero

I would say the software technology is great, but I don't think any of here meant to put down the type of cash and get these results.

Well, if you wanted an idealistic (and artificial) "piano" sound without nasty overtones etc, why would you buy a digital piano rather than a keyboard synth?

Sampled digitals get their samples from real pianos; modeled ones like the Rolands get theirs by simulating the behaviour of real pianos using computer technology. Either way, they want the player to feel like they're playing the real thing - not a machine.

Quote
If we wanted real acoustic sound, we would buy a REAL acoustic piano, no?

Actually, no.

Many people - me included - buy digitals because they can't afford, or play, an acoustic piano where they live. But we also want the closest replication to the real thing in our digitals, because we actually also get to play real pianos from time to time.....(and again, if you never play the real thing, why buy a digital piano rather than a much more versatile keyboard that gives all the electronic sounds you could ever wish for?)

Quote
Also, why with professional recordings are those flaws unheard if indeed they are occurrences with "REAL" pianos? ---- Although since they are being played professionally, then the sounds melds enough where they are just not detected.


Actually, those so-called "flaws" are present in all good piano recordings. You just need to listen to them through great amplification and speakers, or great headphones.

Also, good pianists make use of those qualities. Someone who can't play perfectly evenly will think that some notes stick out 'artificially' when in fact, it's their poor technique that's to blame.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: bennevis] #2567012
08/29/16 08:55 AM
08/29/16 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Cinjero

I would say the software technology is great, but I don't think any of here meant to put down the type of cash and get these results.

Well, if you wanted an idealistic (and artificial) "piano" sound without nasty overtones etc, why would you buy a digital piano rather than a keyboard synth?

Sampled digitals get their samples from real pianos; modeled ones like the Rolands get theirs by simulating the behaviour of real pianos using computer technology. Either way, they want the player to feel like they're playing the real thing - not a machine.

Quote
If we wanted real acoustic sound, we would buy a REAL acoustic piano, no?

Actually, no.

Many people - me included - buy digitals because they can't afford, or play, an acoustic piano where they live. But we also want the closest replication to the real thing in our digitals, because we actually also get to play real pianos from time to time.....(and again, if you never play the real thing, why buy a digital piano rather than a much more versatile keyboard that gives all the electronic sounds you could ever wish for?)

Quote
Also, why with professional recordings are those flaws unheard if indeed they are occurrences with "REAL" pianos? ---- Although since they are being played professionally, then the sounds melds enough where they are just not detected.


Actually, those so-called "flaws" are present in all good piano recordings. You just need to listen to them through great amplification and speakers, or great headphones.

Also, good pianists make use of those qualities. Someone who can't play perfectly evenly will think that some notes stick out 'artificially' when in fact, it's their poor technique that's to blame.


+1. I really heard nothing wrong with the samples provided. I play on acoustic pianos more than digitals, and it's these qualities that a pianist uses. It's not something negative that should be eliminated, IMO.

But if you don't like it, you do have the ability to change that, just don't expect manufacturers to have it preset to your own personal preferences.


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Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2567022
08/29/16 10:03 AM
08/29/16 10:03 AM
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bennevis has put the point about the 'unruly' behaviour of pianos, and thus all serious digital pianos, beautifully, I think.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2567038
08/29/16 10:44 AM
08/29/16 10:44 AM
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I am the last here to write, but indeed, bennevis pointed it all perfectly well. From time to time, beginners here, or people who have no experience with real pianos and have nothing but their image of how perfect sound should be, are coming here and claming that one can hear the action, that sound is ringing, that there are artefacts, and one can hear hammers and dampers touching the strings...

Yes, it's all how the piano works. This is why piano is beauty.

Sad thing is, that those people have noe idea, how horrible is that pure sound that they badly want to have in their instruments. So bad, that if they would have it, they would dislike it within second and called ugly and dead.

Good point is, we can educate them smile

Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: kapelli] #2567063
08/29/16 12:08 PM
08/29/16 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kapelli
I am the last here to write, but indeed, bennevis pointed it all perfectly well. From time to time, beginners here, or people who have no experience with real pianos and have nothing but their image of how perfect sound should be, are coming here and claming that one can hear the action, that sound is ringing, that there are artefacts, and one can hear hammers and dampers touching the strings...

Yes, it's all how the piano works. This is why piano is beauty.

Sad thing is, that those people have noe idea, how horrible is that pure sound that they badly want to have in their instruments. So bad, that if they would have it, they would dislike it within second and called ugly and dead.

Good point is, we can educate them smile


Sound is objective to the user, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's not a case of "those people" that "don't know" but getting opinions from other players on the behaviour of their equipment. And what's so bad about "pure" sound? It's someone else's judgement if it's liked or not----- not the beholders'; hence forth the debate of modelled and sampled sound which in turn is someone's trash and another's treasure.

Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: nelce] #2567067
08/29/16 12:18 PM
08/29/16 12:18 PM
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Sound is subjective for sure.

Behaviour though, is less subjective. There are physical principles that exist that explain why pianos behave the way they do, when played different ways.

This is what the modelled engine recreates. The purpose of a modelled engine is to recreate the piano beyond just it's sound. Behaviour remains important to the psycho-acoustic phenomenon that humans experience when listening to pianos and piano music.

Jay


Formerly in the business. Now just a piano fan.
Re: roland lx17 ringing sounds [Re: Cinjero] #2567068
08/29/16 12:20 PM
08/29/16 12:20 PM
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Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Cinjero
Originally Posted by kapelli
I am the last here to write, but indeed, bennevis pointed it all perfectly well. From time to time, beginners here, or people who have no experience with real pianos and have nothing but their image of how perfect sound should be, are coming here and claming that one can hear the action, that sound is ringing, that there are artefacts, and one can hear hammers and dampers touching the strings...

Yes, it's all how the piano works. This is why piano is beauty.

Sad thing is, that those people have noe idea, how horrible is that pure sound that they badly want to have in their instruments. So bad, that if they would have it, they would dislike it within second and called ugly and dead.

Good point is, we can educate them smile


Sound is objective to the user, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's not a case of "those people" that "don't know" but getting opinions from other players on the behaviour of their equipment. And what's so bad about "pure" sound? It's someone else's judgement if it's liked or not----- not the beholders'; hence forth the debate of modelled and sampled sound which in turn is someone's trash and another's treasure.


kapelli has a good point, and there have been numerous people who come on here that have expectations of an instrument that is intended to copy the acoustic version that really don't know what the acoustic version sounds like. So their expectations aren't being met because they are based on false assumptions about what piano really sounds like.

This isn't intended to condescend, it's just a fact that this is a problem for some: they'll sit and hammer on one note and talk about how bad it sounds, rather than realize that how a note is played makes a huge difference - the better the DP, the more accurate it will try to be to the original acoustic model, and so the more glaring these differences will be with improper playing. Do those same things on an acoustic and it will sound just as bad - if not worse.

It's akin to picking up a violin if you've never played in your life and all you can do is make squeaks and squawks on it and blame the instrument, instead of realizing that there is an art in making a beautiful sound.

Last edited by Morodiene; 08/29/16 12:21 PM.

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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Fazioli Changes Over the Years
by Sleepingtiger. 01/22/19 11:07 AM
p515/clp685 vs cp88
by Jitin. 01/22/19 10:16 AM
Twinkle or Moonlight?
by MrsD. 01/22/19 04:16 AM
My LTCL Repetiore
by Jaguarinoff. 01/22/19 03:31 AM
Hailun & Room Size
by Katie-eights. 01/21/19 09:52 PM
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