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And lo, it comes up again... #2565468 08/23/16 07:23 PM
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argerichfan Offline OP
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... to include the Grave in the expo repeat of the Beethoven Op 13.

I wish this issue would just go away, but some pompous Facebook 'authority' has intellectualized -to his satisfaction- why the Grave should be repeated.

This makes no intuitive sense to me. The Grave is bold, revolutionary (thank-you, Ferruccio Busoni), and dramatic. Some things cannot be repeated twice without trivializing the initial statement. Furthermore, repeating the Grave robs the Allegro of its nervous onrush.

And, yes, I feel the same way about the Chopin Bb minor.


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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: argerichfan] #2565484 08/23/16 08:03 PM
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I agree with you on this situation, Jason. Don't repeat all the way back to the beginning for Pathetique or Chopin Op. 35...

Although, I do like to hear the exposition of Chopin Op. 58 a second time, just personal preference. Same with Schubert D. 960 (is anyone REALLY going to miss those five minutes in their entire life again??)

Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: argerichfan] #2565501 08/23/16 08:47 PM
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Is the Grave just an introduction or is it important thematic material? If an introduction, it should not be repeated. If thematic material, it should be repeated, in order to have a full classical sonata exposition.

I think one could reasonably go either way on this one.

I like repeating it and here's why. For me, the fact that the Grave theme keeps coming back throughout the movement indicates that it's important thematic material. It's right there at the beginning of the development in original Grave tempo, throughout the development in Allegro tempo (alternating with the first Allegro theme, as in m. 8-9 of the devel.) and in the recap in Grave tempo. Also, this way, every time the first Allegro theme starts, it's preceded by a Grave theme instead of by a mere whole note or two. To me, that feels more balanced.

Dramatically, it means something different every time we change from Grave to Allegro. The first time: surprise. The second time: we know it's coming, with twitchy anticipation (maybe bigger ritard right before the Allegro on the repeat). The third time: it's in a new key, development time, anything can happen. The fourth time: it's a surprise again.


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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: argerichfan] #2565511 08/23/16 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
... to include the Grave in the expo repeat of the Beethoven Op 13.

I wish this issue would just go away, but some pompous Facebook 'authority' has intellectualized -to his satisfaction- why the Grave should be repeated.
The self satisfied pompous "authority" can intellectualize this all he wants - but since LVB obviously didn't intend the Grave to be repeated (per the placement of the repeat signs in the score) we should continue to honor his intent.

Geez....... smokin



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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: Carey] #2565519 08/23/16 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Carey
Originally Posted by argerichfan
... to include the Grave in the expo repeat of the Beethoven Op 13.

I wish this issue would just go away, but some pompous Facebook 'authority' has intellectualized -to his satisfaction- why the Grave should be repeated.
The self satisfied pompous "authority" can intellectualize this all he wants - but since LVB obviously didn't intend the Grave to be repeated (per the placement of the repeat signs in the score) we should continue to honor his intent.

Geez....... smokin



Exactly.



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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: hreichgott] #2565539 08/24/16 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by hreichgott
I like repeating it and here's why. For me, the fact that the Grave theme keeps coming back throughout the movement indicates that it's important thematic material. It's right there at the beginning of the development in original Grave tempo, throughout the development in Allegro tempo (alternating with the first Allegro theme, as in m. 8-9 of the devel.) and in the recap in Grave tempo. Also, this way, every time the first Allegro theme starts, it's preceded by a Grave theme instead of by a mere whole note or two. To me, that feels more balanced.


Respecting your eloquent thoughts, I actually think the later appearances of the Grave are a better argument for not repeating the first Grave. I agree with Jason and the others here. Beethoven is skilled in using forward motion and then dramatically bringing the momentum to a stop with the later Grave passages. Repeating the first lessens the effectiveness of these later Graves killing the drama by removing the element of surprise. IF it were more structurally balanced on paper it would not necessarily translate to dramatic balance or realized balance for the listener. Some have suggested before a certain point in Beethoven's output the sonatas are better without the exposition repeat all together. I had a teacher who holds this possition basing it on the golden mean. I remember hearing Miklos Perenyi's recordings of the cello sonatas with Andras Schiff taking every repeat marked to great effect blowing this theory out of the water.


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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: argerichfan] #2565574 08/24/16 07:39 AM
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Not sure why "it comes up again" because the first edition and all those that came after (at least that I have seen) are unequivocal on the subject. Not a matter for interpretation.

A much more significant question for me, which I raised in an earlier thread about repeats in general: whether the repeat in Scarbo should include the slow introduction!

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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: SiFi] #2565575 08/24/16 07:41 AM
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And then there's Islamey. This is a tough one:

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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: SiFi] #2565592 08/24/16 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
Not sure why "it comes up again" because the first edition and all those that came after (at least that I have seen) are unequivocal on the subject. Not a matter for interpretation.

A much more significant question for me, which I raised in an earlier thread about repeats in general: whether the repeat in Scarbo should include the slow introduction!

[Linked Image]


A repeat in Scarbo? From (near the) beginning to end? grin

Not in my edition (Durand)......

BTW, if you can access this, the presenter talks about why scholars believe the Grave intro in the Pathétique should be repeated. (Wilhelm Kempff, Rudolf Serkin, Krystian Zimerman and Angela Hewitt are among those who do so):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03n98dc


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: SiFi] #2565633 08/24/16 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
Not sure why "it comes up again" because the first edition and all those that came after (at least that I have seen) are unequivocal on the subject. Not a matter for interpretation.

Well, there were two early editions published during Beethoven's lifetime plus two later editions (Haslinger and Breitkopf & Hartel) that do not have the repeat sign after m. 10. I'm getting this info off the Stewart Gordon edition (Alfred) of the Pathetique Sonata.

Rudolf Serkin's 1945 recording of this sonata took the repeat all the way back to the Grave.

I don't have a personal opinion on this matter either way. It's all academic fussing if you ask me. cool


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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: argerichfan] #2565641 08/24/16 11:14 AM
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Whether to repeat the grave is a subject near and dear to my heart, as is this piece.

Of course, every person should play whatever brings them joy, but when "experts" start throwing "shoulds" around, I get very strident! Keep in mind my opinions are my own and I abhor the word should (even when I'm everso right haha).

If we're speaking purely academically, I think the answer is a resounding NO.

Leaving aside the fact that this pompous facebook expert is basically trying to convince us that he is a far better composer than Beethoven, who must have somehow missed the correct structure of this piece, the music makes it clear to me that the grave must not be repeated. MUST not.

After the opening grave, Beethoven takes us on this frenetic ride through the first instance of the theme, then in closing we get those dramatic descending octaves, obviously leading us somewhere. We're anxious to get there by this point. Then at measure 132, he drops on us the G7. That chord! All alone. Dangling there. UNRESOLVED. We want so much for it to resolve. And where would it resolve? The Cm of the opening of the grave. Of COURSE we feel tempted to go back there. We want to go back there so badly. We want that G7 resolved. We're exhausted. It would be like the cool stroke of our mother's hand against our flaming cheek.

But he does NOT resolve. WHAT? No. He slaps us on the cheek instead by throwing us right back into those rocketing C octaves. The rollercoaster ride is not over! ACK! The G7 is still in our brains. Even those who don't know music feel the unfinished nature of that G7. AND WE WILL FEEL THAT LACK OF RESOLUTION throughout the remainder of the piece. In fact, the whole piece hinges on it.

Now dizzy from the repeat, we end up back to those crashing descending octaves, and some part of our mind is anxious for the G7 to repeat so maybe, just maybe we'll get to resolution.

But it doesn't.

Instead, we land on 134 with that D7. WHAT? Where did that come from? Before we can snap our necks back into alignment, he drops us into a grave. But not THE grave. It's the first variation. This is not our mother's cool hand. This is some OTHER woman's hand. It's clammy and unsettling.

Thus begins the ride through this crazy rollercoaster. Every loop and turn and drop takes us somewhere vaguely familiar, yet not ever quite right. And eternally, that G7 remains completely, frustratingly unresolved. We spend the entirety of the piece needing resolution. Really, you could see that G7 as the penultimate chord of the piece, and every bit of music between that and the desperately needed, final arrival at Cm at measure 311 as a tease; a frantic foreplay.

When he does finally resolve in the end, he doesn't do it in his usual style. Often he likes to REALLY resolve with a stretched out chord, then a few pulses of the chord, like resolution punctuation. But here he doesn't. We get the briefest staccato of resolution; just enough for us to relax our exhausted and broken bones into his arms. Then he lays us down and soothes us with the melancholy lullaby of the second movement.

If we were to have succumbed to temptation and resolved measure 132 by repeating all the way back to the Cm of the grave, we would be cheating ourselves and any listeners of that entire tantric experienced. It would be more than cheating: it would be self-indulgent. It would be masturbatory. You can play anything you want in the privacy of your own home, but if you continue to prematurely resolve that chord, you run the risk of playing the piece with hairy palms.

Truly, if you allow that chord to resolve before it's time, the entire structure of the piece collapses and it just becomes dramatic drivel.

/end of stridency

Of course, I do still believe people should play whatever brings them joy, and I would never tell anyone that they are wrong to place the repeat wherever they want. But when John Q Hubris the expert tells me that Beethoven was wrong and the grave should be repeated, I get uppity.

Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: argerichfan] #2565693 08/24/16 01:23 PM
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I will look it up but does anyone have a link to the Facebook "authority"?

I don't have a strong opinion either way and feel there are legitimate arguments on both sides (which is probably why its still being argued to this day). I've heard this movement so many times that I wouldn't miss an exposition repeat in any case.


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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: argerichfan] #2565718 08/24/16 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
... to include the Grave in the expo repeat of the Beethoven Op 13.

[...] Some things cannot be repeated twice without trivializing the initial statement.[..]


Repeat it twice? Isn't the question simply whether or not it should be repeated (once), not "repeated twice" after the initial iteration.

Regards,


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Re: And lo, it comes up again... [Re: AZNpiano] #2565722 08/24/16 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Well, there were two early editions published during Beethoven's lifetime plus two later editions (Haslinger and Breitkopf & Hartel) that do not have the repeat sign after m. 10. I'm getting this info off the Stewart Gordon edition (Alfred) of the Pathetique Sonata.

I don't have a personal opinion on this matter either way. It's all academic fussing if you ask me. cool

You're correct about the editions. I'm persuaded by the predominance of versions that do have the repeat markings at the Allegro, particularly the first edition, which has to have been based on the original manuscript, and that of Schenker, who knew his Beethoven inside out. I wish we still had the manuscript, but Rosen says it's lost. I absolutely hate the idea and practice of repeating the introduction, for aesthetic and historical reasons. But there it is.


SRF

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