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Re: prices in Europe? #256451
06/13/06 07:27 PM
06/13/06 07:27 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,886
San Francisco
whippen boy Offline
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Roberta, here is one word of encouragement: GO!

You will have the time of your life! And maybe will find the piano of your dreams too.

PS: Remember Wzkit's trip to Spaichingen? As I recall, there were some beautiful vertical pianos in that showroom. And he travelled all the way from Singapore!


M&H "A" at home
Bösendorfer Imperial
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
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Re: prices in Europe? #256452
06/13/06 07:44 PM
06/13/06 07:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by whippen boy:
Roberta, here is one word of encouragement: GO! You will have the time of your life!
I concur. You probably won't have found any time to play any pianos, but you'll still have more fun than, well, you know. smile


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: prices in Europe? #256453
06/14/06 02:43 AM
06/14/06 02:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
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JohnEB Offline
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Belgium
gryphon - there is a difference between trying to meet the impossibly-tight requirements of Kyoto and doing nothing at all. As far as I know, all European countries are reducing their emissions, even if they are not on track to meet Kyoto.

Carbon credit trading allows one country to pay to emit more carbon dioxide by purchasing the credit off another country, so net-net there is no overall increase in emissions. The pricing of credits allows countries to put an increasingly high cost on emissions, thereby encouraging the reduction in emissions overall.

I hope you would agree that European countries are *trying* to do the right thing, rather than ignoring the issue completely, even if not all are succeeeding 100%.

Oh yeah, piano, Estonia, Steinway, etc.


John
Re: prices in Europe? #256454
06/14/06 10:51 AM
06/14/06 10:51 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by JohnEB:
all European countries are reducing their emissions
No, they are not. 13 out of the 15 European Kyoto signatories are increasing their emissions, not cutting them. Many more than the US. Some twice the US!
Quote
European countries are *trying* to do the right thing, rather than ignoring the issue completely
What is the right thing? Margot Wallstrom, the Swedish vice president of the European Commission, in 2001 (when she was commissioner for the environment) admitted that the Kyoto Protocol was "not a simple environmental issue ... this is about international relations, this is about economy -- about trying to create a level playing field." Kyoto was never about environmental policy. It was designed as an elaborate, predatory trade strategy to level the American and European economies. The problem for Europeans has been that Bush refused to go along, ruining the desired leveling effect. The EU's industries have been devastated, while America has prospered.

As Alberta Crude (Renauda) has said, Kyoto is an EU initiated international follow up treaty that must be seen in relation to the little known European Energy Charter (to which the neither US and Canada are signatories) that contains a protection clause to maintain the preferential treatment on energy resources and investment deriving from the treaties establishing the European Communities. It is yet one more way to provide the EU with an advantage to invest into Eastern Europe, FSU and globally. It assures minimal competition from US investors, while exploiting Russian oil and natural gas resources. Hence the carbon credits trading scheme that heavily enables Western Europe to consume while deriving subsidy from investment into developing states. This works very well into a country such as Russia. The Europeans already have preferential investment treatment via the Energy Charter. Russian carbon emmissions have been steadiliy declining and any investment into its industry from the EU, will qualify for the carbon credit under Kyoto since the Russians are the primary supplier of the carbon fuels that run the EU economies. It even gets better when the EU invests into "carbon credit qualified projects" in Africa, Latin America and Asia.

Its all about minimizing global investment competition from North America.

If Kyoto were all about the environment, we'd have the same rules everywhere. Because of their forest resources, Russia and the Amazon rain forest are classified as carbon sinks. Canada, despite its equally vast forest resources, did not qualify owing to EU opposition.

It's not about the environment, it's about money.

World energy demand could triple in the next 50 years, but energy sources that can produce two to three times the world's present power consumption without greenhouse emissions do not exist. The bottom line is that CO2 cannot simply be regulated away. And countries like India, China, Mexico, and Brazil who will most dramatically increase their consumption of power are not regulated under Kyoto.

If you care, look at what's really being *done,* and who is doing it The U.S. under Bush, along with Australia, India, China, Japan, and South Korea have formed the Clean Development Partnership to develop and share new energy technologies.

Oh yeah, piano, Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, etc.

<font size=1>The US voted against Kyoto 95 to 0. There is a reason. Even from the science standpoint, Kyoto makes no sense. If you plug the Kyoto Protocol numbers into the IPCC computer model, the difference Kyoto would make in the next 100 years is so small that it cannot be measured by looking at temperature data.

Also, GCM models don't model the atmospheric physics at high resolution, nor do they properly take into account oceanographic physics and biological processes. Water vapor is a much more significant greenhouse gas than CO2. Even condensed water (water or ice clouds) has greenhouse affects.</font>


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: prices in Europe? #256455
06/14/06 01:35 PM
06/14/06 01:35 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 49
Europe
Cornelia Offline OP
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Europe
This seems like a nice thread finally.It has info about pianos,cars,imports,european countries violating the law,taxes and carbon dioxide emissions.What more could someone ask from a single thread? laugh laugh laugh
Seriously now,I forgot to say that I live in Europe,so my question was not about importing a piano but rather about comparing prices in Europe.

Re: prices in Europe? #256456
06/14/06 01:40 PM
06/14/06 01:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,755
England/Switzerland
AJB Offline
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AJB  Offline
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England/Switzerland
Okay!

if your experience is like mine you will find that most European dealers will provide you with prices by phone or email. You will need to make it clear that you want real prices not list prices. Many dealers have prices on their web sites, although in many cases for new pianos manufacturers discourage or prohibit this. I wonder why...

Why dont you tell us where you are in Europe, the kind of pianos you are interested in (brand, new or used, etc), and what you are trying to achieve. With two dozen countries to get prices from it needs limiting down to the main sources at least!

Kind regards

Adrian


Currently playing 2017 C212 with carbon fibre soundboard, WNG action. Working on Bach, Beethoven, Grieg mainly.
Re: prices in Europe? #256457
06/14/06 04:33 PM
06/14/06 04:33 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
J
JohnEB Offline
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Belgium
gryphon - you said it in the small print. Kyoto is not the point: greenhouse gas emissions should be the point. If you look at the type of measures actually being taken in European countries to minimize energy use, in the form of encouraging the use of renewable energy, encouraging more efficient cars, you will see that they are trying to reduce energy use overall and to shift energy generation to renewables. Yes it's a difficult job, but it is being done. Friends of the Earth disagree with you on how many EU countries are reducing their emissions: http://www.foeeurope.org/climate/download/background_1yKyoto.pdf


The Clean Development Partnership is good in that it brings both developed and developing countries together, and the current members account for a huge proportion (I think more than 50%) of current global CO2 emmissions. However it's met once to date, and it does not set any targets on pollution or emissions control. If the member countries want to, they can set targets. Individually. So it sounds like a nice idea but it doesn't really have teeth. There is also some suspicion that the Bush administration is not completely supporting emission reduction, and actions on polluters to support that: http://www.greenaction.org/bushcheneywatch/index.shtml

Sure, Kyoto is flawed, but at least it set targets. I agree with you that there is far more politics and trade bargaining than a simple desire to reduce emissions, but I prefer to see real action rather than just nice words.

Ellenburg, Sauter, regulation, etc.


John
Re: prices in Europe? #256458
06/14/06 04:36 PM
06/14/06 04:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
J
JohnEB Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Belgium
Cornelia - I think if you want to compare prices you'll just need to find the web sites of the dealers who you might consider travelling to.


John
Re: prices in Europe? #256459
06/14/06 05:12 PM
06/14/06 05:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 28
San Francisco
L
logesiegfried Offline
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 28
San Francisco
Hello All,

I am keenly interested in the Steingraeber 138 upright and there doesn't even seem to exisit a single unit in the US so you can't even try it and the dealer would probably charge near list order one. In an effort to save money, would it even be conceivable explore directly from Europe and personally incur shipping and import costs? Would one order directly from the factory or from a dealer and how would one go about comparing costs anyway? Does anyone know how much this piano costs in Germany?....thx, tom

Re: prices in Europe? #256460
06/14/06 09:21 PM
06/14/06 09:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,678
Okemos, MI
gryphon Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by JohnEB:
Kyoto is not the point: greenhouse gas emissions should be the point.
And as I said in the small print, the difference Kyoto would make in the next 100 years is so small that it cannot be measured by looking at temperature data. <font color="blue">Water vapor is a much more significant greenhouse gas than CO2.</font>

Reading in the CFP :

Appearing before the Commons Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development last year, Carleton University paleoclimatologist Professor Tim Patterson testified, <font color="red">"There is no meaningful correlation between CO2 levels and Earth's temperature over this [geologic] time frame. In fact, when CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now, about 450 million years ago, the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years." Patterson asked the committee, "On the basis of this evidence, how could anyone still believe that the recent relatively small increase in CO2 levels would be the major cause of the past century's modest warming?" </font>

Patterson concluded his testimony by explaining what his research and "hundreds of other studies" reveal: on all time scales, there is very good correlation between Earth's temperature and natural celestial phenomena such changes in the brightness of the Sun...[Al Gore] "is an embarrassment to US science and its many fine practitioners, a lot of whom know that his propaganda crusade is mostly based on junk science."

Stanwoodizing, magnetic balanced action, PianoDisc, etc.


"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels
Re: prices in Europe? #256461
06/15/06 06:01 AM
06/15/06 06:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
J
JohnEB Offline
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Belgium
Ok Cornelia - hope that helps you with your question on piano prices in Europe. And any outstanding questions you had on climate change.


John
Re: prices in Europe? #256462
07/11/06 09:40 AM
07/11/06 09:40 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 49
Europe
Cornelia Offline OP
Full Member
Cornelia  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 49
Europe
Ok,that's a really late reply but I was on holiday.Thanks everyone for the info about climate changes,I really know a lot on the subject now laugh
To go back to the original purpose of the topic,I am not interested in any particular brand but I'm looking for a european one because I don't like the chinese or japanese ones.I'm probably going to buy it in Greece,as it seems I'll be there for some years.So does this help anyone in advicing me?I'm looking for something under 7000 euro.

Re: prices in Europe? #256463
07/11/06 12:28 PM
07/11/06 12:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,877
Massachusetts
R
Roy123 Offline
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,877
Massachusetts
Interesting post, Gryphon. Even the supporters of Kyoto agree that it will affect global temps by only .07C over 50 years.

Re: prices in Europe? #256464
07/12/06 12:10 AM
07/12/06 12:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Surrey, B.C.
Quote
During my search all this time I've noticed that the european prices differ,sometimes widely,from the US ones.So does anyone know if there's a site or a list for the european prices?I haven't been very lucky in finding anything myself till now.
If one would compare actual selling prices - not just asking or 'list prices' - one would perhaps notice less difference between Europe and North America.

Bear in mind that in many parts of Europe - Germany for example - the posted price is exactly what is means, namely *the price* - the actual selling price.

Over here in North America, we are more inclined to only purchase when we feel to really get a *great deal* - perhaps that's why we have so many *SALES* going on virtually at all times of the year...... shocked

Our 'sales' prices in North America are simply pre-calculated discounts from the often firstly quoted 'list price': all this to perhaps create an image of a bargain to be had at this particular time.....but in the end hardly more or higher than would be the case anywhere else.

[of course notwithstanding the higher costs dealers have anyways to bring pianos to this continent, plus the additional taxes,duties,etc]

Due to much less European premium brand penetration and name recognition in the U.S. - this as opposed to Europe - many of these premium brands are actually sold here for LESS than would be the case in Europe.

Just go and make your 'best deal' with one of your favourite dealers on a fabulous Bechstein grand - and then call a store in Europe for the same piano: you may just get a little surprised.....

Or even shocked.

Norbert shocked


Net invoice price - versus "list price"


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642
Re: prices in Europe? #256465
07/12/06 06:58 AM
07/12/06 06:58 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,005
Singapore
Wzkit Offline
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Singapore
Quote
Originally posted by whippen boy:

PS: Remember Wzkit's trip to Spaichingen? As I recall, there were some beautiful vertical pianos in that showroom. And he travelled all the way from Singapore!
That's true. It was indeed a very rewarding eye (and ear) opening experience. The only thing was that I had already decided on which model I was getting, and had already paid a 50% deposit, so I didn't really go to Spaichingen to decide on the model, just the particular unit I was going to get. Still, it was well worth the trip - besides the free air ticket thumb , I got a chance to try several models which I would never have chance to see in Singapore. I would very much encourage it!


Sauter 185 Delta with accelerated action and burl walnut fallboard
Re: prices in Europe? #256466
07/15/06 12:51 AM
07/15/06 12:51 AM
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Posts: 141
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Goldberg7 Offline
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According to this thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=012630;p=0#000013

Antoine Rose in BELGIUM got a quote for Yamaha C7 at 22k$ (18560 Eur) without TAX + free delivery & initial tuning.

I looked up some dealers in BELGIUM, and found only one dealer who had a web site.

http://www.hanlet.com/

Their Yamaha prices are worse than those in the US.

What's going on? Are the internet prices higher than the street prices? Where can I see the low low Europian piano prices?

Re: prices in Europe? #256467
07/15/06 12:54 AM
07/15/06 12:54 AM
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Goldberg7 Offline
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Europian piano prices from a Europian Internet Piano Dealer

http://www.demmer-piano.de/

Model, EUR, DOLLAR, EXCLUDING VAT (14.7%)

Schimmel Konzert 169 T € 23,900.00 $30,468.68 $26,559.17
Schimmel Konzert 189 T € 25,900.00 $33,018.36 $28,781.69
Schimmel Konzert 213 T € 31,200.00 $39,775.01 $34,671.38
Schimmel Konzert 256 T € 41,300.00 $52,650.89 $45,895.13

Sauter 160 Alpha € 24,900.00 $31,743.52 $27,670.43
Sauter 185 Delta € 27,250.00 $34,739.39 $30,281.90
Sauter 220 Omega € 35,900.00 $45,766.76 $39,894.31

Seiler Virtuoso 168 € 23,390.00 $29,818.51 $25,992.42
Seiler Maestro 186 € 24,800.00 $31,616.03 $27,559.30
Seiler Professional 208 € 27,700.00 $35,313.07 $30,781.96
Seiler Konzert 242 € 36,790.00 $46,901.36 $40,883.34

Yamaha GB-1 € 9,680.00 $12,340.45 $10,757.02
Yamaha GC-1 € 12,770.00 $16,279.71 $14,190.82
Yamaha C-1 € 15,700.00 $20,014.99 $17,446.82
Yamaha C-2 € 17,080.00 $21,774.27 $18,980.36
Yamaha C-3 € 22,390.00 $28,543.67 $24,881.16
Yamaha C-5 € 27,030.00 $34,458.93 $30,037.42
Yamaha C-6 € 30,090.00 $38,359.94 $33,437.88
Yamaha C-7 € 34,380.00 $43,829.00 $38,205.19

YAMAHA CLP-270 € 2,749.00 $3,504.54 $3,054.86
YAMAHA CLP-280 € 3,199.00 $4,078.21 $3,554.93

Re: prices in Europe? #256468
07/15/06 12:56 AM
07/15/06 12:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 141
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Goldberg7 Offline
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I don't know about Schimmel or Sauter, but Yamaha grand prices still sucks. Digital prices are OK, but not great.

Re: prices in Europe? #256469
07/17/06 05:14 PM
07/17/06 05:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 754
Belgium
J
JohnEB Offline
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Belgium
Quote
Originally posted by Goldberg7:
I looked up some dealers in BELGIUM, and found only one dealer who had a web site.

http://www.hanlet.com/

Their Yamaha prices are worse than those in the US.

What's going on? Are the internet prices higher than the street prices? Where can I see the low low Europian piano prices?
Hanlet is an expensive shop but they are a big name in Brussels so people go there.

You can also try http://www.maene.be/,
http://www.pianoscarlier.be/,
http://www.pianoskaufmann.be/
http://www.pianoswauters.be/ (also expensive)
http://www.boddinpianoservice.be/
http://www.jspiano.be/
http://www.bovy-pianos.com/
http://www.cercle-orgue-piano.com/

All these shops will give you 10% off the quoted price as soon as you walk in the door, plus a tuning, a (decent) piano stool and delivery within about 30km.


John
Re: prices in Europe? #256470
07/17/06 11:14 PM
07/17/06 11:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 141
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Goldberg7 Offline
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Thanks, JohnEB.

I tried all the dealers you posted, but none of them seem to have posted piano prices on their web page.

But you guys do get Yamahas and top European brands at considerably lower prices than in the U.S., as Antoine quoted, right?

How are the prices of Schimmel, Sauter, Seiler in Belgium? Is it lot lower than the prices by http://www.demmer-piano.de/ shown above?

Thanks again for the information!

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