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MP11 MIDI recording/playback #2562078
08/09/16 02:47 PM
08/09/16 02:47 PM
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mezzopiano Offline OP
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I own a Kawai MP11 and I'm trying to record my playing. As the MP11 is also a (great!) MIDI controller I'm using both its built-in sounds and external VST instruments via MIDI zones.

Now for the problem: As I record my practice to MIDI (in order to keep the source information and keep storage low), only notes that were played through the built-in sounds are being recorded. That means that if on a certain part of the music I used only external plugins (built-in modules OFF, MIDI zones ON), those notes are not recorded in the MIDI file!!

On the other hand, when I playback the MIDI file, it triggers only built in modules that are on (piano/E.piano/Sub) but does not trigger the MIDI zones that are on!!

It's very frustrating, because it seems like the MIDI controller functionality is not supported by the controller functionality, which is kind of disappointing for an instrument at this class.

I have firmware version 1.12 (didn't see any fixes regarding that in 1.13)

Any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2562083
08/09/16 03:06 PM
08/09/16 03:06 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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If you use a VST, you should record yourself with a DAW (Reaper is one of the cheapest).

With any DAW, you can create 2 tracks : one associated to the VST and a second one sending MIDI events back to the MP11. Each zone should have its own MIDI channel, which is the case by default.

Note: you can download Reaper freely and use all its functions for 60 days before purchasing it.


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2562220
08/10/16 02:32 PM
08/10/16 02:32 PM
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mezzopiano Offline OP
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Frederic, thank you for your very good answer! Indeed I don't own a DAW since I only use the most basic MIDI recording/playback, and so I see no point of purchasing a full DAW just for that.

My question aimed more towards the logic behind the MP11 functionality (perhaps JamesX can elaborate here). I don't get why the MP11 would intentionally block the MIDI zones from being MIDI recorded / played back... It seems for me the natural logic someone would expect, and I see no drawback for this. If for example one wouldn't like to hear the MIDI zones, they can simply switch them off. This is not true the other way around!

So I really think this functionality should come right out of the box (future firmware maybe?). Would love to hear your comments!

Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2562228
08/10/16 03:30 PM
08/10/16 03:30 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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Reaper is a 60$ DAW. Even for a basic use, it could worth its cost.

I won't be able to answer the question about the MP11 logic.


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2562235
08/10/16 04:17 PM
08/10/16 04:17 PM
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Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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I think the problem is that you're trying to simultaneously bypass the onboard sounds (in order to be a MIDI controller for software/module) and have them recorded/played back via MIDI. Perhaps I'm not quite understanding what your trying to do here, but I think I get it, and I don't think that this sort of thing can be done by most instruments I'm aware of.

I think this is more a limitation of MIDI itself, and can be worked around, but it's more complicated, thus why you'd need to use DAW as Frederic described. So basically, what you are trying to do may seem simple, but it's not and thus why a more complicated setup is required.

Here is an easy workaround: record it all as audio, or record each track as MIDI individually (either onboard or software), and when you have the tracks the way you want them, rip them down to audio tracks.

Storage is higher, yes, but in the end, what you want is an audio file, and USB sticks are cheap. smile


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: Morodiene] #2562240
08/10/16 04:41 PM
08/10/16 04:41 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
I think this is more a limitation of MIDI itself,


No, MIDI doesn't specify that a channel associated with a disabled sound generator shouldn't be recorded by an internal recorder. It seems a MP11 limitation.

As a weird limitation, my digital piano does record every notes (even with LOCAL-CONTROL off mode), but plays them with the internal sound generator even with the LOCAL-CONTROL off mode. About the notes sent to the PC, I have to choose between those of my keyboard and those of a song playback, but not both ! Then my internal recorder is not usefull if I want to record myself with an external sound generator.


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: Morodiene] #2562242
08/10/16 04:48 PM
08/10/16 04:48 PM
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That last suggestion is what I do. Its the only thing I can get my head round, you can put them together with Audacity. But . . .What does a DAW actually do? Cos I havent got one. I got pteq, and ASIO4ALL. And a little latency. .

Last edited by peterws; 08/10/16 04:49 PM.

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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2562248
08/10/16 05:24 PM
08/10/16 05:24 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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A typical DAW can record multiple tracks at once, in MIDI (and compact) format or in a audio format. It can also host a VST**. Then it fills the OP needs.

**Some DAW has no VST support : the free version of Studio One (Prime) and Studio One Artist (VST support is optional for Artist). The free version of Pro tools (First) seems to only load AVID extensions - no other virtual instruments.

Even with one track, a DAW is usefull to record a VST with no digital/analog conversion. (With such a basic need, the internal Pianoteq recorder would be useful, but few virtual instruments includes a built-in recorder).

A typical DAW can also :
* insert FX,
* edit MIDI notes.
* basic track modifications (moving and cutting records... usefull to strip out the blank between pressing the "record" button and playing the piano),
* setting volumes of different audio or VSTi tracks,
* defining fade-in/fade-out.
* defining automation curves : setting a parameter to follow a defined curve.

Note that an Audacity FX modify the recorded signal : you have to rely to the undo function to get the original signal (or change the FX parameters). A typical DAW just add an FX component which modify the signal while playing, but you can disable a FX or change its parameters afterward, since the recorded signal remains unchanged.

The Reaper manual has near 400 pages... then I won't be able the sum up what it can do, but I think you have the main points.

Even with a 400 pages manual, Reaper is easy to use if you have basic needs.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 08/10/16 05:42 PM.

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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: Frédéric L] #2562249
08/10/16 05:37 PM
08/10/16 05:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Morodiene
I think this is more a limitation of MIDI itself,


No, MIDI doesn't specify that a channel associated with a disabled sound generator shouldn't be recorded by an internal recorder. It seems a MP11 limitation.

As a weird limitation, my digital piano does record every notes (even with LOCAL-CONTROL off mode), but plays them with the internal sound generator even with the LOCAL-CONTROL off mode. About the notes sent to the PC, I have to choose between those of my keyboard and those of a song playback, but not both ! Then my internal recorder is not usefull if I want to record myself with an external sound generator.
OK, I guess each DP has its own pros and cons in this respect. Maybe James can shed some light on this.


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: peterws] #2562251
08/10/16 05:46 PM
08/10/16 05:46 PM
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by peterws
That last suggestion is what I do. Its the only thing I can get my head round, you can put them together with Audacity. But . . .What does a DAW actually do? Cos I havent got one. I got pteq, and ASIO4ALL. And a little latency. .


A DAW is a graphical way of seeing both audio and MIDI information. Not only can you see MIDI on/off notes, but you can see all MIDI aspects (pedal, velocity, program changes, mod wheel, pitch bend, etc.). So you can tweak things graphically, making editing MIDI much easier. You can do the same kind of audio editing that Audacity can as well, and have both formats in one file (audio/MIDI). It also allows you to do a lot more sophisticated recording techniques as well as work with software synths as plug-ins within the DAW to have everything in one place: audio from a mic or acoustic instrument or direct line-in, MIDI from sound modules or external keyboard, and MIDI from software synths, for example.

It's pretty neat once you get the hang of things. I'm still learning Logic and how to use software synths and the editing process that each of the synths have. It's a big learning curve. smile


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: Morodiene] #2562255
08/10/16 05:58 PM
08/10/16 05:58 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
You can do the same kind of audio editing that Audacity can as well, and have both formats in one file (audio/MIDI).

I don't know about other DAW, but Reaper has not all the Audacity effects. Each tool has its strengths. And it stores its audio takes in separate files.


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: Frédéric L] #2562258
08/10/16 06:11 PM
08/10/16 06:11 PM
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Morodiene
You can do the same kind of audio editing that Audacity can as well, and have both formats in one file (audio/MIDI).

I don't know about other DAW, but Reaper has not all the Audacity effects. Each tool has its strengths. And it stores its audio takes in separate files.


I'm not too familiar with Reaper. I use Logic and Cubase, and they pretty much can do everything, so I'd be surprised if Reaper couldn't as well. Maybe there are plug-ins you need for certain things like spectrum graphs, but certainly all the main DAWs have the same capabilities, it's just a matter of preference of layout/format.


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2562409
08/11/16 01:15 PM
08/11/16 01:15 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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Audacity has a wide set of effects : http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/index_of_effects_generators_and_analyzers.html

I am not sure Reaper has the equivalent of :

Click removal
Clip fix
Reverse
Repair
Tremolo

(And some others)

Also, if we can set the gain, I havn't found the way to normalize easily : I have to render a project, note the max level, change the main level according to this value.



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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: Frédéric L] #2562411
08/11/16 01:17 PM
08/11/16 01:17 PM
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Audacity has a wide set of effects : http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/index_of_effects_generators_and_analyzers.html

I am not sure Reaper has the equivalent of :

Click removal
Clip fix
Reverse
Repair
Tremolo

(And some others)

Also, if we can set the gain, I havn't found the way to normalize easily : I have to render a project, note the max level, change the main level according to this value.

I wonder if there are plug-ins from other developers that can do this?


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2562432
08/11/16 02:15 PM
08/11/16 02:15 PM
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Frédéric L Offline
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I don't think a VST plugin can change the speed of a track (tremolo, reverse), since they generaly work real-time. Other functions could be done but I don't know if other developers propose them. "Click removal" is done to process vinyl records, it is quite specific, and I don't think a DAW is the right tool for this function (just one audio track, Audacity will be more handy). The same for "Repair".

About the normalize function, it doesn't exist at the project level, but there is a normalize option for audio takes.

EDIT : to fix clipping, there are some plugins : http://blog.wavosaur.com/free-declipper-plugins-lets-try-to-fix-clipping-distorsion/

Last edited by Frédéric L; 08/11/16 03:05 PM.

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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2562574
08/12/16 05:13 AM
08/12/16 05:13 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Hello mezzopiano,

My apologies for this delayed response - I've been away for a few days.

Originally Posted by mezzopiano
Now for the problem: As I record my practice to MIDI (in order to keep the source information and keep storage low), only notes that were played through the built-in sounds are being recorded. That means that if on a certain part of the music I used only external plugins (built-in modules OFF, MIDI zones ON), those notes are not recorded in the MIDI file!!

On the other hand, when I playback the MIDI file, it triggers only built in modules that are on (piano/E.piano/Sub) but does not trigger the MIDI zones that are on!!


May I please ask you to check that the 'Transmit Recorder' parameter in the EDIT:Transmit menu (for MIDI OUT zones) is set to 'On'. I cannot be sure, but I believe this may do the trick.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2562592
08/12/16 07:26 AM
08/12/16 07:26 AM
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Nickeldome Offline
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Also keep in mind that by default the 4 zones transmit on different midi channels. So zone 1 on channel 1, zone 2 on channel2, etc.
So if you played something on zone 3 it will only produce sound in your DAW when the receiving midi channel is set to 3. Or use Omni mode to receive data from all channels, but that's something you would rather like to avoid and only use for testing purposes.

Last edited by Nickeldome; 08/12/16 07:27 AM.

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Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: Kawai James] #2562818
08/13/16 06:58 AM
08/13/16 06:58 AM
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mezzopiano Offline OP
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James, Thanks a lot! it worked! smile
Now I'm able to both record from MIDI zones (with builtin off) and play back to MIDI zones! This is awesome!

Also thanks everybody for your opinions and contributions!

Just a quick question out of curiosity - why is this parameter OFF at first place? Is there some reason for anybody to have it OFF?

Re: MP11 MIDI recording/playback [Re: mezzopiano] #2563318
08/15/16 01:42 AM
08/15/16 01:42 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by mezzopiano
James, Thanks a lot! it worked! smile
Now I'm able to both record from MIDI zones (with builtin off) and play back to MIDI zones! This is awesome!


Good to hear, thanks for the confirmation.

Originally Posted by mezzopiano
Just a quick question out of curiosity - why is this parameter OFF at first place? Is there some reason for anybody to have it OFF?


I will have to check with the engineering team, however I expect it may be because we do not wish any messages to be sent to external instruments unintentionally, thus the user must enable this function.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

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