Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
89 registered members (astrotoy, Boboulus, Álvaro, anotherscott, AndyP, Abdol, Boylan, 29 invisible), 1,237 guests, and 504 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: Norbert] #2562669 08/12/16 12:29 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,166
pianoloverus Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,166
Originally Posted by Norbert
As I've said many times before: carefully compare pianos near same price point!!
You can say this over and over but many people don't shop that way and I think for good reasons. If one has a rigid limit on dollars(high and low)to spend than your approach may be reasonable. But even then it's important to compare a piano at price X with one costing less to see if the difference in cost is "worth it". People do this all the time and it makes perfect sense.

Similarly, it's very common for someone to try pianos costing more than they initially plan to spend...again to see if the extra cost is worth it to them. Very common. There are certainly plenty of PW threads that talk about buyers spending a lot more than they initially planned to.

Even when a buyer has decided on a particular manufacturer they often compare different size models(costing different prices) from that maker to see if the more expensive model is "worth it".

Finally, I think it's worth noting that the PB recommendations are grouped by the size of the piano and not by the price of the piano.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/12/16 12:44 PM.
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2562670 08/12/16 12:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 43
B
Bortholomew Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 43
You should ask him about the Indonesian-made Boston UP-118S PE, and if it suffers from these same problems that supposedly affect other pianos made in state-of-the-art Indonesian factories.

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2562671 08/12/16 12:38 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,166
pianoloverus Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 26,166
I think it's also important to realize that dealers don't have to mention specific makes or dealerships to bash them. Statements like "This piano is the best one for X dollars" effectively bash all other pianos at that price. It's a different story when a categorical statement like that is prefaced by "We think... and here are the reasons why". Or "We do terrific prep, terrific after sale service, etc. and it's too bad that many other dealers don't treat customers like this" effectively bashes other dealers.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/12/16 12:46 PM.
Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: pianoloverus] #2562678 08/12/16 12:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 43
B
Bortholomew Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 43
But there's a big difference saying "This is why our pianos are great because of this..." vs "This is why our competitors' pianos suck because of that..."

Sell your own product, don't denigrate the competition. I went to a Kawai dealer, and he said a great feature of his pianos was the Millenium III action, and invited me to test it for myself. He didn't say that other actions were bad, or even that his was superior, just that his was very good.

I was at another dealer, though, that tried to trot out the old Kawai Plastic Action parts argument. I didn't have the heart to tell him I was a materials engineer.

Another had a used (possibly slightly out of tune) U1 sitting next to his cheap brand to show that his cheaper line had better tone compared to the defacto standard upright. A paraphrased quote of his was "This is what Yamaha wants you to think pianos should sound like. See how the treble doesn't match with the bass?" He should have just said that the company strived hard to get a great sounding piano, rather than to say that Yamahas are inherently built with bad tone and his are the only ones to get it right.

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: Tuneless] #2562679 08/12/16 12:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,362
N
newbert Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,362
Originally Posted by Tuneless
Bert, the dealer is in essence bashing Chinese pianos and at the same time selling Chinese pianos. Nothing wrong with anyone here with Chinese made pianos.


Well, maybe I've misinterpreted, but it looked to me that the dealer was bashing KOREAN pianos. I saw no mention of him bashing Chinese pianos. Hence, I didn't understand the posted response.

...Maybe I'm splitting hairs?


Bert
[Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: newbert] #2562699 08/12/16 02:22 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,503
Carey Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,503
Originally Posted by newbert
Originally Posted by Tuneless
Bert, the dealer is in essence bashing Chinese pianos and at the same time selling Chinese pianos. Nothing wrong with anyone here with Chinese made pianos.


Well, maybe I've misinterpreted, but it looked to me that the dealer was bashing KOREAN pianos. I saw no mention of him bashing Chinese pianos. Hence, I didn't understand the posted response.

...Maybe I'm splitting hairs?

Bert - For many years, pianos built in Japan were generally perceived as being better than those built in Korea - and Korean pianos were generally considered to be better than those built in China. So it seems strange to me that the salesman would trash Korean built instruments when in fact he is selling instruments assembled in China. Personally, I think every piano - regardless of county of origin - should be evaluated on its own merit. smile




Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2562727 08/12/16 05:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 301
T
Tim P Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 301
As I've been to stores specializing in a few different types of instruments, I've been wondering lately why this type of behavior among piano dealers seems more prevalent than some other instruments.

My working theory right now is that the cost and size of a piano means that there are very few regular and repeat piano customers other than institutions. I'll guess that most families buy a piano only once, and unlike most other instruments, maintenance and any needed repair is typically done by a different business. Similarly, players of other instruments regularly return for things needed to keep playing, like reeds, rosin, strings, mouthpieces, etc.

So while I feel like many music stores need repeat business to survive, piano salespeople may not (again, except with institutions). Thus many seem to approach it like they're selling very high end furniture or maybe real estate, so they may use fairly aggressive sales tactics or even some questionable practices.

At least that's my current rather rambling theory, which will likely need a lot of revising. (That's not to say going to many general music stores is a good experience, as often times it's not, as I learned as a kid buying reeds.)

However, there are many great dealers, those who want to match the right piano with the person and ensure s/he's very happy with the purchase for a very long time. Those who find some joy in helping people along with their musical journey. So it's good to help keep those businesses around.


Last edited by Tim P; 08/12/16 05:16 PM.
Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: Tim P] #2563031 08/14/16 01:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 169
cphollis Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 169
Last year, I was looking at high end pianos, wanting to pull the trigger on a once-in-a-lifetime purchase.

I was strongly encouraged to consider Steinways, which I did. I visited three separate dealerships in three different states. The experience in all of them was unimpressive, to say the least.

The instruments weren't adequately prepared for evaluation. They told me that their techs could work magic once I made a purchase. That's like taking a Porsche for a test drive, having it behave like crap, and the dealer telling you "well, our mechanics can fix anything". I was unimpressed.

The sales people were condescending to mere mortals like me. I got so irritated at one of them that I snapped "I'm not looking for a fashion statement, just a great piano". Cold silence ensued. When I expressed an interest in the German Steinways, more cold silence.

I was done.

I ended up finding Atlantic Music Center in Melbourne, FL. Fantastic experience. I spent a whole afternoon going from exceptional piano to exceptional piano. Brian was able to explain the differences between all the top (non-Steinway) brands. No bad mouthing -- it was like being with a winemaker who was sharing with you what made each vintage different and unique.

I ended up with a new Bosendorfer Model 200.

No regrets.


Life is too short to be playing bad music.

Practice: Bosie 200, Yam N3
Live: Nord Piano 4, Stage 3 Compact
Amps: QSC K.2s, RCF TT08-s, FA 12-ac, CPS SSv3
Support: STAY stands, X-Air mixers, Vent II, etc
Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2563075 08/14/16 07:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 162
S
sirwormsalot Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 162
Dealers will try it on from the very first moment. They don't want their gravy train to stop. They're salesmen. Perhaps if you are Ghandi, they might give you a small discount. The only way to get the best price is to force their hand, negotiate. It's unfortunate. Don't be one of the many customers they get who are incapable of standing up for themselves and pay thousands over what they could.

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2563084 08/14/16 08:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,668
O
outo Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,668
I had some very good interactions with several dealers when I was looking for a grand. I got plenty of good advice from them, but after a while I started feeling the need to be sceptic of whatever they say after listening to so many conflicting opinions. Of course I knew from the start that usually whatever price is first asked is too high, that's just the way piano business works...

I met two main types of knowledgeable and friendly dealers:

Some clearly saw the piano more as a technical device and did not seem to really understand what I heard and felt when I played their pianos. They liked to talk about the technical qualities and resale value of the piano. Of course it is a problem if your piano is always in need for tuning or repair, but for me technical quality still has to come second to tone and touch if I cannot afford something that has it all. And I was looking for a piano to play, not sell.

Then I met a couple of dealers who were also pianists and they seemed to understand me better when I had issues with the sound or comfort of playing. It was easy to discuss the pianos with them. But I also felt the need to refer to my tech with technical questions and price evaluation.

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2563092 08/14/16 09:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 22
S
soundfiber Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 22
Outo - I like your description of the two types of knowledgeable and friendly dealers. With the exception of the dealer I mentioned in my original post, all of the dealers I talked with fell into one of these categories. And I definitely preferred those in the second category.

I do also want to emphasize that all of my experiences with dealers were good - with the one exception I noted. I would have been comfortable purchasing from more than one of the dealers I contacted, although I do feel that my final choice of piano and dealer was the very best - for me. 😊

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2563106 08/14/16 10:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 127
P
Piano Valentine Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 127
I viewed a lot of pianos before I made my final decision. At first I was considering if it should be a Japanese or German upright piano. Then I decided to buy a German piano, and then I needed to decide whether it would be a Bechstein, Schimmel or Sauter.

At last I came across a nice dealer, but before that I came across a nasty dealer. That nasty dealer just badmouthed other German brands. He said only the German brand in his store was the best. He even said that Schimmel pretended to be made in Germany. I said I saw the words "Made in Germany" on Schimmel pianos. He asked me where. I said “made in Germany" was printed on the music racks. Then he said, "So, it means only the music racks were made in Germany."

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2563760 08/17/16 12:59 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
Retsacnal Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
Regarding approaches to purchasing, I think the take away is to comparison shop! If you have a finite budget, try every piano you can at that price point, and select the one you like best. If money is no object, then essentially do the same thing: try as many as you can, and buy the one you like best.



"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2563762 08/17/16 01:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
Retsacnal Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
Most of my dealer interactions are positive, because they happen right here! wink

I've only been in two dealers in recent history:

1) On the way home from radiation treatment a couple years ago I stopped at a piano dealership and looked at some pianos. That's what one does when one has cancer (I also stopped on another day at a motorcycle shop). I didn't buy a piano (or a motorcycle).

2) I stopped in at Rick Jones Piano about 3 years ago, and had a pleasant experience.



"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: soundfiber] #2563763 08/17/16 01:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
Retsacnal Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
4000 Post Club Member
Online Content

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,579
Oh, I meant to add that I think desperation drives some dealer antics. Some great dealers are doing fine, I'm sure, but in the shrinking piano marketplace, I'm sure there are many mom & pop piano shops that are struggling. When a sale means an extra ten or twenty thousand dollars in a given month's revenue, it must be very tempting to lie cheat and steam to make the sale.



"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: Piano Valentine] #2563777 08/17/16 04:03 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,640
Rich Galassini Offline
Platinum Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Platinum Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,640
Originally Posted by Piano Valentine
He even said that Schimmel pretended to be made in Germany. I said I saw the words "Made in Germany" on Schimmel pianos. He asked me where. I said “made in Germany" was printed on the music racks. Then he said, "So, it means only the music racks were made in Germany."


That is funny. Thanks for that!


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for great content every week:
https://www.youtube.com/user/CunninghamPiano
Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: Piano Valentine] #2564427 08/20/16 12:24 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 152
K
Ken Iisaka Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 152
Originally Posted by Piano Valentine
I viewed a lot of pianos before I made my final decision. At first I was considering if it should be a Japanese or German upright piano. Then I decided to buy a German piano, and then I needed to decide whether it would be a Bechstein, Schimmel or Sauter.

At last I came across a nice dealer, but before that I came across a nasty dealer. That nasty dealer just badmouthed other German brands. He said only the German brand in his store was the best. He even said that Schimmel pretended to be made in Germany. I said I saw the words "Made in Germany" on Schimmel pianos. He asked me where. I said “made in Germany" was printed on the music racks. Then he said, "So, it means only the music racks were made in Germany."


Ah, that sounds like the psychopath at one of the piano dealers in the San Francisco Bay Area, who is rather infamous around here for being less than tactful, and drives many potential customers away.

I visited this gentleman's business about 10 years ago, when I was looking to buy a companion for the piano I owned then: a fine, former C&A Hamburg B. I had money in the bank, and was considering another B, or a D, or even a different brand.

This kind gentleman proceeded to insult all pianos by Steinway, even though he had several used ones on the floor. He insulted me by saying that I was stupid and knew nothing about pianos for not considering the brands he had, some of which were Chinese-made pianos of old European brands.

When I asked to try some of the pianos, he told me not to touch his pianos, claiming that another customer is expected to arrive to try pianos. He yelled at me for touching one, even.

Well, he carried some nice pianos: one of the non-Steinway S&S pianos. But from the experience, I have sworn to never give this %#&@*) ^$&*(@ a dime, or even time of the day. It's such a shame, as I probably would have been very tempted to buy the S&S piano he carried. I've heard through the grapevine that the same piano is still on the floor, looking for a buyer, with an inflated price tag and the psychopath keeping it from getting sold.

Then I found this Italian... Oh bliss...

Re: Inappropirate dealer behavior [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2564469 08/20/16 05:13 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,784
A
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,784
Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
Originally Posted by Piano Valentine
I viewed a lot of pianos before I made my final decision. At first I was considering if it should be a Japanese or German upright piano. Then I decided to buy a German piano, and then I needed to decide whether it would be a Bechstein, Schimmel or Sauter.

At last I came across a nice dealer, but before that I came across a nasty dealer. That nasty dealer just badmouthed other German brands. He said only the German brand in his store was the best. He even said that Schimmel pretended to be made in Germany. I said I saw the words "Made in Germany" on Schimmel pianos. He asked me where. I said “made in Germany" was printed on the music racks. Then he said, "So, it means only the music racks were made in Germany."


Ah, that sounds like the psychopath at one of the piano dealers in the San Francisco Bay Area, who is rather infamous around here for being less than tactful, and drives many potential customers away.

I visited this gentleman's business about 10 years ago, when I was looking to buy a companion for the piano I owned then: a fine, former C&A Hamburg B. I had money in the bank, and was considering another B, or a D, or even a different brand.

This kind gentleman proceeded to insult all pianos by Steinway, even though he had several used ones on the floor. He insulted me by saying that I was stupid and knew nothing about pianos for not considering the brands he had, some of which were Chinese-made pianos of old European brands.

When I asked to try some of the pianos, he told me not to touch his pianos, claiming that another customer is expected to arrive to try pianos. He yelled at me for touching one, even.

Well, he carried some nice pianos: one of the non-Steinway S&S pianos. But from the experience, I have sworn to never give this %#&@*) ^$&*(@ a dime, or even time of the day. It's such a shame, as I probably would have been very tempted to buy the S&S piano he carried. I've heard through the grapevine that the same piano is still on the floor, looking for a buyer, with an inflated price tag and the psychopath keeping it from getting sold.

Then I found this Italian... Oh bliss...


Wow, who knew shopping for a piano could be so harrowing! That's an unbelievable story. He must have had some sort of psychiatric condition to behave in such a way.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
Christmas Ornaments Music Theme
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
My new (odd!) method of sight reading...
by camperbc - 12/11/19 08:10 PM
Buying a Hailun 161...
by funk@delic - 12/11/19 05:10 PM
It's here! My first real piano!
by WeakLeftHand - 12/11/19 04:00 PM
Frozen 2 - All Is Found - Piano Arrangement
by nappy - 12/11/19 12:56 PM
PC vs Mac for Garritan CFX?
by kiwibd - 12/11/19 11:10 AM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics195,613
Posts2,900,791
Members95,210
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3