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Consistent mistakes #2562015
08/09/16 09:23 AM
08/09/16 09:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8
Italy
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Nick Stu Offline OP
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Hi, I have a question about consistent mistakes and how to go about fixing them.

I'm not a pianist, I have a piano which I sometimes play, and one of the pieces I've been playing the most throughout the years is Chopin's op.9/2.

I'll start by saying that I have never had proper piano training, I'm a guitar player and picked up piano as a hobby. Now, I know op.9/2 pretty well, I know the notes, I've played trough it many times.

I seem to be making a consistent mistake in the first chord, on any of its repetition. After playing the bass Eb, when the little finger should play a G, sometimes it plays an F#, sometimes it plays a G#. This happens because I go about playing the G in between the black keys and I sometimes miss the target.

The problem I have with this is that it's not much of a technical challenge, or something which one would fix by playing drills. I know which note to hit, I hit it most of the times, once in 10 times I will miss it.

How would you go about fixing this?

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Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562024
08/09/16 09:49 AM
08/09/16 09:49 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,954
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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Think about it this way: every time you hit the wrong note, you are reinforcing the wrong note, thus ensuring you will hit it wrong again sometime in the future. This can be very frustrating, especially when you go back and play it again and get it right. So it often goes like this: 1st time, played wrong, 2nd time played right - every time you play it.

In your case you say once in 10 times you hit the wrong note, but in those 10 times, are you focusing on that note specifically ahead of time, being "ready" for it to make sure you hit it correctly? Sometimes it's just a matter of right before that measure or phrase, you tell yourself, "OK, here comes that note, and this is what I must do to hit it correctly."

That may also mean that you have to figure out what you're actually doing wrong. This goes deeper than just realizing you're hitting the wrong note, but asking why that is happening. You say, "This happens because I go about playing the G in between the black keys and I sometimes miss the target." But what specifically is wrong with playing between the keys? Are you not quite set up over the key before playing it?

I would practice the LH alone, play the low Eb, then just get my hand in position for the G/Eb but wait to play it (don't play in time just yet) until you are positive everything is in line. Then play it. Go back and forth between the low Eb and this G/Eb like even quarter notes or half notes, slow enough so you can make sure you are in position, then gradually increase in speed.

Another approach, which is almost an opposite of this, is to go back and forth between the Eb and G/Eb very quickly. At first you're not trying to hit the right notes at all. Play a bunch of notes in the general vicinity of these keys (it will sound terrible - that's OK smile ) then on each pass you can refine the notes you play to try and hit the exact keys. The purpose here is to not "stop and fix"but adjust on the next pass. For example, if you overshoot and end up hitting G#/Eb, then on your next pass you can adjust your hand to be a bit wider in position to be sure to hit the G.

Doing both of these approaches (vs. just one of them) are what I'd do. This may take one sitting, or you may have to do it over a period of days.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562028
08/09/16 10:07 AM
08/09/16 10:07 AM
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Warsaw, Poland
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Some ideas:

- Stop just before the point of the mistake. Think and then play. Then stop one note before, then two notes, etc.
- Play the bass hand only but without looking.
- Play in solid chords.
- Maybe obvious but... did you try slowing down?


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Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562029
08/09/16 10:08 AM
08/09/16 10:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8
Italy
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Nick Stu Offline OP
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Italy
Thanks for the reply. I'll give it a go and post an update on it. I'm aware that sometimes it's just about figuring out what you're doing wrong, though it's not easy. That's partly the reason why I decided to post, maybe talking to other people about it can help (or force me) to analyze the problem.

Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562031
08/09/16 10:14 AM
08/09/16 10:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,954
Boynton Beach, FL
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Originally Posted by Nick Stu
Thanks for the reply. I'll give it a go and post an update on it. I'm aware that sometimes it's just about figuring out what you're doing wrong, though it's not easy. That's partly the reason why I decided to post, maybe talking to other people about it can help (or force me) to analyze the problem.


It's really hard to say without actually seeing you play and make the mistake. But being able to assess yourself is an extremely helpful tool, even if you don't know the solution. Most of learning piano is self-teaching, even if you have a teacher.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562034
08/09/16 10:35 AM
08/09/16 10:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,155
Canada
keystring Offline
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Some time ago I learned a "backward practice" approach, that is the opposite of the usual forward practice. You take a chunk of music. You play the last measure - maybe even just the last note of that measure. Then the note before that measure, coming into what you just practised. And so on. A single note is extreme, and for something difficult - it could be a group of notes - but you get the picture.

Your problem is that you have already practised it the wrong way and now it's entrenched. This method is most effective when done in the beginning, but a version of this might help you now. Anything that has been learned wrong will need much heavier work to correct it, than when learned right in the first place.

A couple of years ago for some reason I recorded a "backward practice" of a passage where I was trying to get timing of pedal and so forth for something like a single measure. I don't know if it gives any ideas. https://app.box.com/shared/static/2vfeppvwb3ycjwsfhd4k.mp3

Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562050
08/09/16 11:57 AM
08/09/16 11:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,494
Southeast US
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It's very common to focus in on the few notes or one or two measures before the mistake spot. And often, this makes it possible to correct the mistake. Figure out what's happening up to the point of the mistake, correct it, and the mistake corrects itself. I use this approach a lot, but there's one other approach I came upon by accident, which is kind of the reverse of this approach. Which is the following:

Closely examine what comes after the mistake spot. It may be that there is something coming up that you're worried about or that is a little difficult etc. And by the time you're at the mistake spot, you're worrying ahead. Figuring out that problem also sometimes leads to the mistake-spot correcting itself.

That's why I now try to always focus in on what's immediately before and after the mistake spot. First isolating them, and then practicing it all together with the mistake spot sandwiched in the middle.

Another approach, so of building on what Qazsedcft described, is to look at the spot where you often make a mistake. Slow down, make sure you're looking where you want your finger to land, and then ease into it, making it as perfect as you possibly can. As you start to go back to playing it at the desired tempo, keep looking where you want to land. That may help as well.

Finally, you might look at how you're using your hand/fingers, and or arm/elbow... could it be that some physical adjustment might make change how you move into or out of the position where the mistake occurs?

Best of luck! I'm sure if you keep trying different approaches you'll correct the problem. You just might not know which approach actually worked best! grin


Started piano June 1999.
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Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562065
08/09/16 01:19 PM
08/09/16 01:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 245
Sweden
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ghosthand Offline
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In the most beneficial lesson I have ever got, last fall with a fantastic conert pianist who has a fantastic technique, I most proudly pointed out what I was doing wrong.

I thought I was clever as I could pinpoint the flaw, not everyone can do that, right? I was not pleased with the bars 2-5 in the Rondo of the Pathetique sonata. I wanted a light, elegant feeling but it sounded clumsy and uneven. And probably I expected a precise instruction that would solve everything.
But he just stared at me and said "why does it sound clumsy - and what are you going to do about it?"

This was very enlightening, I must say. I looked silly for a few moments and then I tried to give a very fuzzy explanation on "why" this happened and still he wasn't pleased. I was not allowed to play again until I had not just identified "why" but also "what".

And so we spent 15 minutes trying to sort out the solution to the problem. I had thought we would work with the Pathetique Rondo. Instead we worked with three lousy keystrikes. Three! But ... these 15 minutes were indeed well used, because after this I have been able to sit at home and hear this voice in my head over and over again when something just isn't working: WHAT are you going to do about it?

And actually I always find the solution as well, after doing some thinking. I believe I am not the only one who simply is afraid of breaking down a problem to atom level. Instead we sort of hover over it, like a bird of prey who is watching a prey on the ground, but does not dare to fulfill the attack.

What about the Rondo problem? Well, it turned out that I was not preparing next keystrike soon enough. When I play the short D with my fourth finger, I must lift my third finger and get ready for a controlled and straight press down on C, and when this C is going down, I must lift my second finger in a similar way. I was a bit late, I did not prepare the next keypress until the previous key was already down, and this made the playing uncontrolled, therefore the sloppy and uneven result.
I write about this just to illustrate how detailed you sometimes have to be. And when you have identified the EXACT movements you have to make, not just with the finger that is playing, but also with the one who is coming next, you have to repeat this sequence quite a few times, and come back and do it again next day, and the next day ... very slowly, of course, to begin with. But finally it will be harder to play wrong than to play right.

OK, so I cannot see what you are doing in this piece, in fact I cannot play this piece either. But it seems to me that you are doing a slight jump from Eb to G, is that correct? And you often hit the black keys instead. Well, one issue could be that you don't hit the G key with your finger totally aligned with the keys, which increases the risk of touching the surrounding black keys instead. Perhaps you should adjust your wrist position sideways - you have to work out, in ultra-slow motion, HOW and WHEN you should make this adjustment. Or perhaps you don't lift your fifth finger high enough when you jump over F#? But then you should rather land on F instead. My guess is that you have not positioned your wrist correctly when you play the G key. Playing a white key between two black keys and not fully aligned is very difficult! (As you can see for yourself.)

Another solution is to retract your hand so that you come outside the black keys when you play this G. You have to try different solutions here and see what works best for you. As an exercise you can try playing this in octaves, from Eb to G and back again, several times and over all the octaves on the piano, also playing the same notes with your right hand as well. (It seems that the hands can help each other out). But the disadvantage with octave playing is that your wrist might then come in wrong position after all, so I would investigate the wrist angle first.

These are suggestions.

Last edited by ghosthand; 08/09/16 01:25 PM.
Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562069
08/09/16 01:43 PM
08/09/16 01:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 307
In the mountains of NC
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Nick, hobbies are model building and stamp collecting. Learning to successfully play such a complicated musical instrument such as the piano is far far from a hobby...it's a learned skill that requires an individual's concerted effort of personal time, proper instruction, and practice. It takes years to master, if at all.

The guitar by comparison is as close to the piano as taxidermy is to brain surgery. If you really wish to learn the piano, stop treating it as a hobby and take lessons like most everyone else who's become the least bit successful at it, otherwise I'm afraid you're destined to meet one difficulty after another, continually perplexed as to how to continue.

Yes, this sounds like I'm a stick in the mud, but reality often stings with discomfort.

Regards,
Andy


1979 Yamaha C7D - Yamaha P115 - Korg MicroKORG synth. - Korg Kaossilator Pro synth.
Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562070
08/09/16 01:46 PM
08/09/16 01:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,262
Reseda, California
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JohnSprung Offline
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Originally Posted by Nick Stu
After playing the bass Eb, when the little finger should play a G, sometimes it plays an F#, sometimes it plays a G#. This happens because I go about playing the G in between the black keys and I sometimes miss the target.


There are two kinds of wrong notes: 1. Brain/memory errors, like getting the wrong date on a history test, and 2. muscle precision errors, like throwing a dart and not hitting the bullseye.

Most of the responses so far address the type 1 mistakes, but your quote says to me that the problem here is type 2.

The first thing I'd look at with a type 2 problem is fingering. Are there other ways to play the phrase that don't require as much precision? Try using a different finger for the troublesome G, and work backward and forward from there trying new fingerings. (I don't play the piece in question, so this generic advice might not apply in this case.)

If there's no way to re-finger, you just have to nail the leap. It's a purely physical skill, like darts or golf. Repetition is the only thing that works for that.




-- J.S.

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Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: ShiroKuro] #2562093
08/09/16 04:11 PM
08/09/16 04:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,303
Midwest USA
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Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
........there's one other approach I came upon by accident, which is kind of the reverse of this approach. Which is the following:

Closely examine what comes after the mistake spot. It may be that there is something coming up that you're worried about or that is a little difficult etc. And by the time you're at the mistake spot, you're worrying ahead. Figuring out that problem also sometimes leads to the mistake-spot correcting itself.............
I am making that very mistake in one of my pieces by playing an F when I should be playing an A. When played correctly, the F follows the A. Thank you for putting a name to the category: The Worrying Ahead Error. smile


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Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Stubbie] #2562095
08/09/16 04:32 PM
08/09/16 04:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,155
Canada
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
........there's one other approach I came upon by accident, which is kind of the reverse of this approach. Which is the following:

Closely examine what comes after the mistake spot. It may be that there is something coming up that you're worried about or that is a little difficult etc. And by the time you're at the mistake spot, you're worrying ahead. Figuring out that problem also sometimes leads to the mistake-spot correcting itself.............
I am making that very mistake in one of my pieces by playing an F when I should be playing an A. When played correctly, the F follows the A. Thank you for putting a name to the category: The Worrying Ahead Error. smile

Reminds me of "Don't think of pink elephants." - same effect.

Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562137
08/09/16 09:25 PM
08/09/16 09:25 PM
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MossySF Offline
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Use different fingering.

I grabbed the score off Google. The chords look like so:

Eb - Eb
G - Eb
Bb - EB - G

You start with your hands covering 1 octave Eb - Eb. You end with Eb -> G which is not nearly an octave but it ends up being about that distance because you have to rotate your hands as your thick thumb cannot fit between the black keys. So for more consistent results, do not use your pinkie to hit the G. Instead, keep your left hand stretched 1 octave and figure out which finger naturally hits the G for the 2nd chord. This avoids involving extra muscles in order to stretch->bunch->stretch your hand to hit the notes.

For me, the most natural fingering is:

5=Eb, 1=Eb
3=G, 1=Eb
5=Bb, 3=Eb, 1=G


Last edited by MossySF; 08/09/16 11:47 PM.
Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562140
08/09/16 10:12 PM
08/09/16 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick Stu
I hit it most of the times, once in 10 times I will miss it. How would you go about fixing this?


My facetious answer is to only play it nine times, skip the tenth time when you miss the note.

My more serious suggestion is that instead of playing this piece over and over 10 times or more, just play it once. Use the time you would have spent on that one piece to instead play nine other pieces. And don't worry about hitting all of the notes all of the time, just move on.

There's so many great pieces out there, why not explore more of them?

Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562148
08/10/16 01:04 AM
08/10/16 01:04 AM
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Israel
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Nahum Offline
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Nick ,are you sure that you don't change every time the fingering?

BTW, on Eb I use the 4 th finger , on G - the fifth .

Before landing on G, can you hear it clearly   in a head and see clearly the finger on a key?

Jumping and landing on keyboard is similar to throw the ball in the basket, and operates the same mechanism as that of a basketball player.This means that training should be similar : play jump in G from all the black key below it and above it - with the correct fingering. Similarly, throws the ball from different points of a sports ground. Then you can go to blind jump.

Last edited by Nahum; 08/10/16 05:19 AM.
Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562164
08/10/16 06:30 AM
08/10/16 06:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,838
Ireland (ex England)
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zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted by Nick Stu
After playing the bass Eb, when the little finger should play a G, sometimes it plays an F#, sometimes it plays a G#. This happens because I go about playing the G in between the black keys and I sometimes miss the target...
How would you go about fixing this?

The two chords following the Eb are legato and played 5-2, 4-1. The hand should be positioned to play the full chord, G-Bb-Eb-G so the the little finger should be much closer to the lip of the key not fitting between the black keys. This is the case throughout the piece except m29 where a little juggling is required.

If you need to drill it you might play the two chords as a block chord a few times until your hand gets the right position consistently.

As you've been playing this a while the old movements will be ingrained and may take some time to resolve but you should have enough spare upstairs while playing this to be able to concentrate on the new moves for a few weeks until the new habit takes over. It might require dropping the piece a few times and picking it up again. The concentration required will gradually reduce.



Richard
Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: keystring] #2562222
08/10/16 02:40 PM
08/10/16 02:40 PM
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Reseda, California
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by ShiroKuro
........there's one other approach I came upon by accident, which is kind of the reverse of this approach. Which is the following:

Closely examine what comes after the mistake spot. It may be that there is something coming up that you're worried about or that is a little difficult etc. And by the time you're at the mistake spot, you're worrying ahead. Figuring out that problem also sometimes leads to the mistake-spot correcting itself.............
I am making that very mistake in one of my pieces by playing an F when I should be playing an A. When played correctly, the F follows the A. Thank you for putting a name to the category: The Worrying Ahead Error. smile

Reminds me of "Don't think of pink elephants." - same effect.


Reminds me of the old high school joke: "Flunk now and avoid the rush."



-- J.S.

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Yamaha CP33
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Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562269
08/10/16 07:08 PM
08/10/16 07:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,388
western MA, USA
hreichgott Offline
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Playing an advanced piece on a "hobby" basis means there are going to be flaws and difficulties here and there that never really get resolved.
If you wanted to dig a little deeper and polish the piece... +1 to everything ghosthand said smile


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Beethoven/Liszt - Symphony no. 7
Tommy (whole show)

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Re: Consistent mistakes [Re: Nick Stu] #2562382
08/11/16 10:52 AM
08/11/16 10:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 8
Italy
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Nick Stu Offline OP
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Italy
Hi people. I want to apologize for not replying earlier, thanks for all these replies. It's been a couple of rough days so I could not get my hands on the piano, but I'll go over your replies asap and hopefully make progress.


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