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At the time the VPC1 came out, that was GF, and it should have been included in the VPC1. Kawai didn't do so in order to prevent the VPC1 from cannibalizing their higher-end pianos, but that was a very anti-consumer move and one that prevented me from purchasing the VPC1. I believe one of the main reasons for not using the 'Grand Feel' action in the VPC1 was because it physically would not fit inside the existing MP10 chassis, which was retained in order to reduce production costs. Respectfully, I disagree with your 'anti-consumer' assessment - if anything the opposite is true: the VPC1 was specifically developed for a relatively niche audience of consumers seeking an excellent keyboard action in a portable form factor, without all the stage piano functionality of an MP. Kind regards, James x Ah, so would it make sense to hypothesize that Kawai might bring out the VPC2 using the old MP11 chassis? One might guess that the VPC2 should be out say 6 months before the release of the MP12, which will take longer to develop should the MP12 get a new chassis design and require a factory retool? Further, would this mean that the VPC2 would get a similar action to the GF1?
Last edited by Doug M.; 06/17/16 08:47 AM.
Instruments......Kawai MP7SE.............................................(Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000) Software..........Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8 Stand...............K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand Piano stool.......K&M 14093 Piano stool
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At the time the VPC1 came out, that was GF, and it should have been included in the VPC1. Kawai didn't do so in order to prevent the VPC1 from cannibalizing their higher-end pianos, but that was a very anti-consumer move and one that prevented me from purchasing the VPC1. I believe one of the main reasons for not using the 'Grand Feel' action in the VPC1 was because it physically would not fit inside the existing MP10 chassis, which was retained in order to reduce production costs. Respectfully, I disagree with your 'anti-consumer' assessment - if anything the opposite is true: the VPC1 was specifically developed for a relatively niche audience of consumers seeking an excellent keyboard action in a portable form factor, without all the stage piano functionality of an MP. Kind regards, James x Ah, so would it make sense to hypothesize that Kawai might bring out the VPC2 using the old MP11 chassis? One might guess that the VPC2 should be out say 6 months before the release of the MP12, which will take longer to develop should the MP12 get a new chassis design and require a factory retool? Further, would this mean that the VPC2 would get a similar action to the GF1? Dunno about thart. If I was them Id just drill holes in the same keys in a different place and call it GFS. . .
"I am not a man. I am a free number" " "
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Respectfully, I disagree with your 'anti-consumer' assessment - if anything the opposite is true: the VPC1 was specifically developed for a relatively niche audience of consumers seeking an excellent keyboard action in a portable form factor, without all the stage piano functionality of an MP.
Kind regards, James x Well put James! That was an unfair jab at Kawai and as a consumer I feel very well served by the VPC-1.
- Schimmel Upright
- Kawai VPC-1 with Pianoteq
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Who says that Kawai is planning a VPC2? Is that anything more than a dream or conjecture?
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I believe one of the main reasons for not using the 'Grand Feel' action in the VPC1 was because it physically would not fit inside the existing MP10 chassis, which was retained in order to reduce production costs.
Respectfully, I disagree with your 'anti-consumer' assessment - if anything the opposite is true: the VPC1 was specifically developed for a relatively niche audience of consumers seeking an excellent keyboard action in a portable form factor, without all the stage piano functionality of an MP. To say the move was anti-consumer, of course, doesn't say that Kawai hates its customers or anything. I'm sure they love their customers, as all companies do. But the objective of a company is to make money. Sometimes that means giving the customer what they want, other times it means crippling one product so that those who are willing/able will buy a different, more expensive product. That's not illegal or even necessarily immoral, but it is anti-consumer. The idea of using RM3 in order to save on production costs doesn't sound very compelling to me. Kawai certainly could have used the MP11 keys and chassis. The leftover RM3 inventory could be used elsewhere or disposed of. At the end of the day, the niche market the VPC1 was designed to address is the set of people who want the very best keyboard action there is and that's all. The VPC1 does an amazing job with the "that's all" part, but even when it first came out, it couldn't claim to be Kawai's best action. If Kawai made that choice to reduce the price point by a few dollars, I'd say they misunderstood the niche. If we want to, we can save a ton of dollars by buying from Casio, StudioLogic, or another discount brand. The "budget keyboard" niche is a very different one from the one the VPC1 addresses. By the way the "lightweight keyboard for gigging" niche is also very different, so let's stop that excuse before it comes up. By the way, I don't dislike Kawai or anything. My current piano is a Kawai. And I'll likely get another Kawai when I upgrade. The other brands aren't really even trying to make a mark on this space. At the same time, I do harbor a little resentment that I will either have to compromise on key action with the VPC1 or spend a bunch of extra on stuff I won't use in the MP11 or even CA97/67 if I upgrade to Kawai's current generation. The VPC1 is a great concept. The greatest concept to come along in this space for a long time. That is why it is so sad that it was intentionally handicapped.
Last edited by gvfarns; 06/17/16 02:53 PM.
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Who says that Kawai is planning a VPC2? Is that anything more than a dream or conjecture? More dream than conjecture, I'd say. James has been pretty insistent that there's no successor in the works, which is something else that sours me a bit on the VPC line.
Last edited by gvfarns; 06/17/16 03:06 PM.
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Great to see someone mentioning this. it would be awesome. One can dream that Kawai would not only be the first manufacturer to give us a purely controller keyboard with grand action, but also lead the way to the first and only digital 7/8 option. Of course chances are near zero as it's such an incredible niche. Perhaps Steinbuhler could be convinced to mod a VPC1 and sell it just like Ravencroft does. It would cost a lot of course.
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More dream than conjecture, I'd say. James has been pretty insistent that there's no successor in the works, which is something else that sours me a bit on the VPC line. It's a MIDI master keyboard after all - which can survive generations of software pianos without getting outdated. That's the point of having one, isn't it? So unless you change the form factor (73/76 keys variant, 7/8 keysize variant), which is very unlikely to happen, there is no reason to risk developing a new product, which might not be as successful on the market as the previous one. So when the VPC1 still sells well and no competitor shows up, there is no reason to move. In case of the "anti-consumer" allegations I have to defend Kawai here, especially considering the ES8. The only alternative to affordable offerings based on reused tech is going the Clavia route and selling anything at premium prices. Which might you get even higher revenue, even at lower volumes.
Yamaha P-515
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Great to see someone mentioning this. it would be awesome. One can dream that Kawai would not only be the first manufacturer to give us a purely controller keyboard with grand action, but also lead the way to the first and only digital 7/8 option. And doing it as portable controller would make perfect sense, so you could expand your favorite digital piano with it. Of course chances are near zero as it's such an incredible niche. Indeed, I don't expect it to happen within this century. Piano technology moves slowly.
Yamaha P-515
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And doing it as portable controller would make perfect sense, so you could expand your favorite digital piano with it.
Ironically it would also be lighter and smaller and hence more portable with a 7/8 keyboard.
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I guess I don't see why portable and the VPC1 are used in the same sentence. Yeah, you can move it around, but it's not what I would normally call lightweight or portable. There are plenty of other competitors in that space that are better in that respect.
These wooden actions are not at all lightweight. If you want a lightweight gigging piano or a specialty piano with 7/8 keys, I would think a plastic action is what you would expect. I just have a hard time imagining that the intersection of the people who want a high quality authentic-feeling pure piano controller and the people who want those things contains many customers.
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People who want a 7/8 keyboard want just as much quality as the rest. Portability isn't really the main criteria, just mentioned it because any digital with a 7/8 keyboard would automatically have less weight as keys have lower width.
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I did wonder. Particularly when the MP11 was barely any heavier and only slightly physically larger than the VPC1 and yet sported the GF action. Please note that the MP11 is 3 kg heavier, 3 cm deeper, and a little taller than the VPC1, partly due to the GF keyboard action: MP11 vs VPC1 comparison chartAlso, please note that the MP11 was released in 2014, while the VPC1 was released in 2013. So it could easily have been done. Maybe...if it was physically possible to fit a larger action into a smaller amount of space, while also being able to travel back in time. The idea that the VPC is portable is purely notional. Yes, you could move it if you wanted to, but I think you'll find very few would want to. That's fine by me. It's a studio/workshop controller AFAIC. I don't disagree, however 'portable' is a relative term. If you're a professional musician playing several concerts each week and demand an excellent piano action in a slab-type form factor, the VPC1 is 'portable'. Cheers, James x
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The idea of using RM3 in order to save on production costs doesn't sound very compelling to me. Kawai certainly could have used the MP11 keys and chassis. Please refer to my response to dire tonic above - the MP11 chassis did not exist when the VPC1 was developed and released. The leftover RM3 inventory could be used elsewhere or disposed of. The 'RM3 Grand II' action was used in the CA15 and continues to be used in the CA17, along with the VPC1. The keyboard action is still regarded as one of the most realistic available in a digital piano, and therefore still in production. At the end of the day, the niche market the VPC1 was designed to address is the set of people who want the very best keyboard action there is and that's all. The VPC1 does an amazing job with the "that's all" part, but even when it first came out, it couldn't claim to be Kawai's best action. I don't believe there was any claim that the VPC1 utilised Kawai's best action, more that it was the most realistic action available in a slab-type board (it was, as the MP11 would not arrive for another 12 months), and certainly the most realistic action available in a MIDI controller. If Kawai made that choice to reduce the price point by a few dollars, I'd say they misunderstood the niche. I'm afraid I do not know the cost implications of utilising the 'RM3 Grand' action over the 'Grand Feel' action, and adapting the existing MP10 chassis instead of designing a new chassis in order to accommodate the larger GF action. However, I expect these decisions ultimately allowed the VPC1 to be sold at a far more attractive price to consumers. If we want to, we can save a ton of dollars by buying from Casio, StudioLogic, or another discount brand. The "budget keyboard" niche is a very different one from the one the VPC1 addresses. Indeed, and I don't believe this is a realistic comparison. However, I expect that if Casio ever decided to produce an action-only controller using an adapted version of the PX series chassis, it would be priced even more competitively than their current models. By the way, I don't dislike Kawai or anything. My current piano is a Kawai. And I'll likely get another Kawai when I upgrade. The other brands aren't really even trying to make a mark on this space. At the same time, I do harbor a little resentment that I will either have to compromise on key action with the VPC1 or spend a bunch of extra on stuff I won't use in the MP11 or even CA97/67 if I upgrade to Kawai's current generation. The VPC1 is a great concept. The greatest concept to come along in this space for a long time. That is why it is so sad that it was intentionally handicapped. Well, at least I can agree with two thirds of that paragraph. Cheers, James x
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Without having the intention of contradicting James, I believe that the majority of customers would not worry about carrying those extra 3Kg in a 3cm bigger instrument. (My intention is to convince Kawai to do it :P )
Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
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I am grateful that we actually have a VPC1 amongst our midst these days. I remember different times with plastic actions and techy boards. In my opinion the simplicity of the VPC1 is one of it's strongest points. The current VPC1 RM3GII action is my preference above the GF; and I believe it's just a matter of taste between these two actions.
Two improvements that I would suggest: - The VPC1 has all of it's connections on the top of the rear board. Now this is exactly in the way for those who want to extend the flat surface of the instrument onto a table top that would carry sheet music, screens, keyboard, mouse monitors etc. So these connections could be relocated to eg. the bottom of the rear panel instead of the top. And while we're at it, these connections could be partially sunken into the chassis, so the long jacks, USB- and midi connectors wouldn't be sticking out that far. - The power button could possibly have a different, more professional feel to it.
Last edited by DeskDesign; 06/19/16 11:13 PM.
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Lose the round top. Not sure why they went with this, it's impractical but also debatable from a design point of view as all real pianos are flat on top (uprights, grands with closed cover) as far as a I know. Remember this? Looks sleek enough to me.
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I believe that the majority of customers would not worry about carrying those extra 3Kg in a 3cm bigger instrument. No, perhaps not, but I wished to indicate that the different in size/weight between the MP11 and VPC1 was larger than dire tonic suggested. By the way, I believe the MP development team actually took a number of measures to reduce the weight of the MP11, where possible. It weighs just 0.7 kg more than the MP10, despite the larger action and chassis. Kind regards, James x
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Not sure why they went with this... Because, as noted above, the VPC1 utilised an adapted version of the MP10 chassis, which was designed with the slightly curved top surface. Remember this? Looks sleek enough to me. Yes, very sleek! Cheers, James x
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